PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[Shadow Mir]

So have MaMU pass down Pavise and Cynthia pass down Aegis to f!Morgan. Then have f!Morgan become a Grandmaster as her final class and pair her off with someone like Owain or Inigo (if they make good Dread Fighters).

Erm, I'm sure what he meant was that they can get around both Pavise+ and Aegis+.

Frack, got ninja'd by the man himself.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Emily]

Sorry, I misread! Thank you very much for the advice though. :)
I'm going to research classpaths and skills for the 2nd gen characters and hopefully start up the new save slot.

[Ownagepuffs]

...Based on what I have been reading, people generally prefer Donnel!Kjelle and Gaius!Noire over other combinations, and Nah is the only other child character, Lucina aside (who has 4 of 5 potential playable mothers giving her the proper classes), who cannot have the Troubadour/Pegasus Knight classes without specific fathers, both class branches possessing notable skills.

And Manaketes are fairly good units, possessing high Strength, Defense, and Resistance stats thanks to Dragonstone bonuses, though Speed and Skill could use some work even after Dragonstone bonuses, and magic is increased to for some reason... plus, Dragonstones can't be forged...

...So I have been wondering: What could Nah and Morgan do as Avatar and Nowi born children that other, usually better Avatar born children can't do, Manakete status aside?

And the above not possible, what can Nah do otherwise? And would Morgan benefit from a Nah bred specifically for that thing?

(please note I am unable to do DLC maps outside of those contained in the Golden pack, as I cannot obtain them at this current time)

MaMU x Nowi is pretty sick in game. It's not as good as the pegs, Sully, and Miriel, but it's above like everything else. Edit for explanation: Manakete counts as a base class and that works well with Veteran. Their weapons have lots of uses and innate 1-2 range.

What is the best papa for a Lunatic Physical Inigo, barring Chrom and MaMu? I'm not talking about for postgame, by the way, I want to use Inigo for my final team. I've heard good and bad things about Freddy and Virion.

Stahl, Libra, Henry and Freddy say hi.

...Eh. Depends on the play mode. Gaius!Kjelle can concievably be better than Gaius!Noire, but it's rare, and Noire has better classes to exploit the high speed enemies. Plus, Noire SUCKS without Gaius, whereas Kjelle does not.

Hard support Noire is a conceivable thing.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Vascela]

Hard support Noire is a conceivable thing.

As is a galeforceless lead.

And PavGis has its value: Chiki's 3 unit clear for secret Apo relied on some procs there. Completely unreliable, but it's something nobody else has proven possible without them.

[Alastor15243]

Hard support Noire is a conceivable thing.

Yeah, but at what benefit? Gaius!Kjelle only has one more speed than Gaius!Noire, but is physical locked, meaning the speed is pointless, because there's only one enemy physical attacks are effective against who has a speed higher than 65. The only way that one extra speed will ever be useful is to hit a very precise speed niche on a no rally and/or no DLC challenge run. That's an extremely minor benefit to give up Galeforce over. And honestly you're better off with Donnel for Noire than going hard support as long as you like Vengeance.

[Ownagepuffs]

Hard support Noire is a conceivable thing.

As is a galeforceless lead.

Go go Laurent.

Yeah, but at what benefit? Gaius!Kjelle only has one more speed than Gaius!Noire, but is physical locked, meaning the speed is pointless, because there's only one enemy physical attacks are effective against who has a speed higher than 65. The only way that one extra speed will ever be useful is to hit a very precise speed niche on a no rally and/or no DLC challenge run. That's an extremely minor benefit to give up Galeforce over. And honestly you're better off with Donnel for Noire than going hard support as long as you like Vengeance.

That's it, actually. I prefer no dlc min maxing. G!K can do cool things like proc stack 60 Spd Pally with Astra/Luna/Spd +2/Lancefaire/GF with a +0 Spd support.

Looking at it another way, the difference between G!N and G!K is 1 Speed and they have equal strength. If N is playing Vengeance Sniper (it's a thing) then she loses nothing from not having Gaius. She can run Spd +2/Ven/Hexathema/Bowfaire or you could sub Hex for GF.

As a Sniper she only needs a +2 Spd Support to hit 60 Spd. She can take a Paladin support if there are no available Berserkers. The 60 Spd benchmark is pretty cool since only NS and Anna can double it. There are approximately 15 enemies in all of secret route with over 55 Spd, most of them being bosses. It's why Airship aimed for it in his run.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Xenomata]

Manakete is awesome for in-game, but for Apotheosis, if you plan to do that, it isn't actually all that good. Its attack power is roughly comparable to an axe-using hero without axefaire, and as a physical class locked to aegis weapons, it is therefore trumped in every aspect for apotheosis by the Sniper class.

If you use Manakete for in-game though, definitely get a hold of Ignis, because manakets have really awesome magic for a physical class.

As for what Nah can do without the avatar as her dad... well... she can focus on being a hard support like Yarne, Laurent and Gerome, though without Aggressor she generally isn't as effective at that role as they are and generally has one or more junk slots unless you give her a dad with archer and give her Skill+2 for a 100% DS build with a high skill Morgan.

If you like Vengeance she's definitely more useful than if you don't, because then with very little skill investment she can go up front for the second attack of each pair (she can also do this with Luna but with lower reliability since she doesn't have Astra too), but the problem is that you have to give her something that gives her an advantage over her husband, like a higher move class or the ability to attack at 3 range or something, because otherwise there's literally no inherent reason to put her in front aside from very special challenge runs (most challenge runs mean there's no inherent difference in putting the girl up front, and no holds barred puts your offensive power at such a ludicrously high level that the higher damage is completely irrelevant). So since there's no inherent reason, you have to actually give her the ability to do something her husband can't do. Otherwise she's better off staying in the back all the time.

So go for Ignis on Avatar!Nah and Nowi!Morgan if I choose to leave either in Manakete, but don't rely on manakete's in Apothesis...?

If I choose to not pair Avatar with Nowi to make an Avatar!Nah/nowi!Morgan, then have Nah focus more on supporting her husband, focus on utilizing Vengeance for dealing damage, but keep her off the front lines if she can't do something her husband can't? ...in that scenario, Henry seems like a perfect fit due to passing on both Troubadour (Dual Support +) and Dark mage (Vengeance), with the added bonus of Thief for whatever reason...

...I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding, sorry...

...wait, what Asset/Flaw combo should I do for an Avatar/Nowi combo (since that is my primary goal in the end (from a personal and emotional level instead of gameplay level like I would have preferred at first, (and as much as it pains me to admit to such) I need to be with Nowi...))? In most of my out-of-game experiments and research to see what works best for Morgan and Nah, I usually do Speed Asset, Defense Flaw because of the skill and speed boosts that may help in early game, when weapons are generally more likely to miss than mid to late game, when you have had the chance to grind units, purchase useful weapons and gear/find good stuff from Event Tiles, and allow for units to build supports with one another.

But I am willing to adapt to whatever is recommended, though speed asset Manakete Nah/Morgan wind up with 42 speed after Dragonstone+ bonuses (I checked), which is about the amount required for most all units with no additional speed modifications to be unable to double them (barring Brave weapons of course), which I feel is a pretty good bonus.

[Ownagepuffs]

I'd probably roll with +Spd/-Skl or something for Nowi and Nah. Manakete isn't a very fast class and they would appreciate the boost while still keeping their bulk.

[Alastor15243]

I'd probably roll with +Spd/-Skl or something for Nowi and Nah. Manakete isn't a very fast class and they would appreciate the boost while still keeping their bulk.

Skill reduces both strength and defense too though. I'd personally go for luck, that's my favorite flaw when factoring in ingame.

[Xenomata]

I'd probably roll with +Spd/-Skl or something for Nowi and Nah. Manakete isn't a very fast class and they would appreciate the boost while still keeping their bulk.

The following refers to Max Stat modifiers...

Speed Asset, Luck Flaw lowers the Avatar's Str, Mag, and Luk by -1 while keeping Skl and Spd at +2 and +4 respectively and leaving his defensive stats alone... reminds me of Sully, but with slightly less Luk and more Spd and Def.

On Morgan and Nah, this equates to +1 Str, Mag, and Luk, +2 Skl, +3 Spd and Res, and +4 Def.

With Dragonstone+ bonuses, the following is what an Avatar!Nah/Nowi!Morgan Manakete would look like:

Str: 52 (equates to 64 attack power)

Mag: 42 (equates to +21 attack upon successful Ignis activation)

Skl: 42

Spd: 42

Luk: 46

Def: 57

Res: 53

And of course, that can only go higher with Tonics and Support bonuses. But more importantly, it makes them undoublable, Brave weapons/Celica's Gale aside, AND they become rather hard to hit, which can be made into impossible to kill with healing skills.

My only real issue with that is what it does to the Avatar, but like I said, I feel like what happens is that they become a second Sully, which... I actually don't know what that means as a whole, what is the opinion of Sully as a unit anyways?

Skill reduces both strength and defense too though. I'd personally go for luck, that's my favorite flaw when factoring in ingame.

...I spent so long making my post that I didn't even notice this appeared...

...at least I wound up coming to the same conclusion?

Edited August 4, 2015 by Xenomata

[Vascela]

Right now, I'd say Skl is my go-to flaw for in game purposes. I'd rather deal with less procs on my end (or potentially missing a fraction more of my non-100 hits) than deal with luck flaw. Not that it's terribly worse (they'll produce similar results), it's a matter of pick your poison. I just don't find luck flaw as appealing as skill. I've wanted to try out Res as a flaw, but never got motivated to do it.

Also, when examining the asset/flaw combinations, I'd recommend looking at base value and growth differences rather then caps. When you're at in game caps, they don't mean as much as the uncapped, benchmarked stats. It's like hitting 76 Spd in Apo--there isn't much extra value for it other than "it's a higher number." Application should be a higher priority than simply some caps. You should also translate what the growths mean. 5% growths does affect you--but keep in mind how much.

[Augestein]

Right now, I'd say Skl is my go-to flaw for in game purposes. I'd rather deal with less procs on my end (or potentially missing a fraction more of my non-100 hits) than deal with luck flaw. Not that it's terribly worse (they'll produce similar results), it's a matter of pick your poison. I just don't find luck flaw as appealing as skill. I've wanted to try out Res as a flaw, but never got motivated to do it.

Also, when examining the asset/flaw combinations, I'd recommend looking at base value and growth differences rather then caps. When you're at in game caps, they don't mean as much as the uncapped, benchmarked stats. It's like hitting 76 Spd in Apo--there isn't much extra value for it other than "it's a higher number." Application should be a higher priority than simply some caps. You should also translate what the growths mean. 5% growths does affect you--but keep in mind how much.

I don't particularly like res for a flaw in higher difficulties. Having potentially like... 25% res growth is pretty awful (or even worse, 20% res) with a base of 3. And your bases start in that ugly level to be hit by magical criticals and die instantly and you never really get out of it with that range for a long time. Robin's base is actually his/her worst stat outside of luck, so making it even worse doesn't seem too good.

[Xenomata]

Right now, I'd say Skl is my go-to flaw for in game purposes. I'd rather deal with less procs on my end (or potentially missing a fraction more of my non-100 hits) than deal with luck flaw. Not that it's terribly worse (they'll produce similar results), it's a matter of pick your poison. I just don't find luck flaw as appealing as skill. I've wanted to try out Res as a flaw, but never got motivated to do it.

Also, when examining the asset/flaw combinations, I'd recommend looking at base value and growth differences rather then caps. When you're at in game caps, they don't mean as much as the uncapped, benchmarked stats. It's like hitting 76 Spd in Apo--there isn't much extra value for it other than "it's a higher number." Application should be a higher priority than simply some caps. You should also translate what the growths mean. 5% growths does affect you--but keep in mind how much.

I really only look at growths as an issue on characters who have absolutely terrible growths, such as Stahl or Vaike in Resistance, Maribelle in Defense, etc.

On an Avatar with Speed as an Asset and Luck as a Flaw, the growth percentages are as follows on a Tactician/Grandmaster:

Hp: 80%

Str: 50%

Mag: 45%

Skl: 55%

Spd: 65%

Luk: 50%

Def: 40%

Res: 30%

Of course, those values change depending on the class.

Plus, the Avatar has the advantage of every single class for their gender under his or her belt, so no matter how you feel you need to set up your avatar, be it defensive tank or impossible to hit, you will more than likely end up with max stats by the end anyways.

I know people say that the maximum stats aren't that big an issue, but really, when the game makes it possible to train for a near infinite amount of time and build up those stats with bad growths anyways, and also stat boosting items such as the Seraph Robe, Tailsman, Goddess Statue, etc, I really don't see consequence in setting growth rates to the side UNLESS I decide to challenge myself and not grind at all AND not utilize Second Seals, something which I would never consider for a serious Lunatic run.

In my opinion, every one point can make the difference between defeating the enemy earlier than expected, surviving with one hp left, getting necessary criticals, and their polar opposites, which can lead to Game Over. Growth rates just don't have that same level of consequence except for the beginning of the game, when grinding isn't possible until chapter 3 (Spotpass) or chapter 4 (EXPonential Growth DLC).

Edited August 4, 2015 by Xenomata

[Shadow Mir]

Skill reduces both strength and defense too though. I'd personally go for luck, that's my favorite flaw when factoring in ingame.

I wouldn't recommend luck flaw if you're factoring in ingame, EVER. I really think starting with a 2 luck base is just asking for trouble. I'd rather deal with less procs than that, EASILY.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Alastor15243]

I wouldn't recommend luck flaw if you're factoring in ingame, EVER. I really think starting with a 2 luck base is just asking for trouble. I'd rather deal with less procs than that, EASILY.

I really didn't notice any problem at all with a Luck flaw. I tried it out on Lunatic+ and I still easily capped luck for both her and her children by the end of the game.

[Shadow Mir]

I really didn't notice any problem at all with a Luck flaw. I tried it out on Lunatic+ and I still easily capped luck for both her and her children by the end of the game.

I still think the ramifications that a Luck flaw has are instant dealbreakers, in large part because it's easier to make up for lacking hit than it'd be to make up for lacking crit evade.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Alastor15243]

I still think the ramifications that a Luck flaw has are instant dealbreakers, in large part because it's easier to make up for lacking hit than it'd be to make up for lacking crit evade.

But luck is only ever annoying in the absolute beginning of the game. Past that you quickly reach the point where virtually nobody can get a critical rate on you without killing edges or Ruin.

[Ownagepuffs]

I still think the ramifications that a Luck flaw has are instant dealbreakers, in large part because it's easier to make up for lacking hit than it'd be to make up for lacking crit evade.

I'm pretty sure IS made Harold specifically to pander to you

[Shadow Mir]

But luck is only ever annoying in the absolute beginning of the game. Past that you quickly reach the point where virtually nobody can get a critical rate on you without killing edges or Ruin.

And just what part of the game is the hardest? At any rate, that's the point I'm trying to get across - I'd rather not be even more susceptible to a restart because an enemy got a critical hit, particularly in the hardest part of the game. Aside from that, if you wanted Armsthrift, a Luck flaw hurts you there, too.

I'm pretty sure IS made Harold specifically to pander to you

Are we talking about the same Harold that's THE most crit-susceptible character in the series (because for all the flak he gets for it, at least Knoll was in a game where you had an item that negated enemy critical chances)?

Edited August 4, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Xenomata]

And just what part of the game is the hardest? At any rate, that's the point I'm trying to get across - I'd rather not be even more susceptible to a restart because an enemy got a critical hit, particularly in the hardest part of the game. Aside from that, if you wanted Armsthrift, a Luck flaw hurts you there, too.

Are we talking about the same Harold that's THE most crit-susceptible character in the series (because for all the flak he gets for it, at least Knoll was in a game where you had an item that negated enemy critical chances)?

Pair Up with Lord, Great Lord, Myrmidon, Swordmaster, Griffon Rider, Priest/Cleric, War Cleric/Monk, Villager, or Dancer.

Make sure support level is A and over, also make sure the pair up unit's Luck is at 30 and higher.

All of the above should net a unit 6-8 additional luck by being in a pair up, even the unpromoted units. Throw on a Tonic, and bam over 50 luck for any character, even if their luck max modifiers are -5 or lower (which should be impossible to achieve)

And if we are going to talk the hardest part of the game, it is of course the path leading up to chapter 3 and chapter 4, when grinding is impossible, battle preparations are not available, and... I coulda swore there was a third thing...

Ah well, maybe someone with more experience knows what that is.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Xenomata

[Vascela]

The only real source of +Luk is coming from Chrom early game. And if you aren't going the FeMU x Chrom route (which doesn't really lead into Lon'qu or Lissa pair up), then you aren't getting much. Swordmaster/War Cleric/Villager/Dancer are all pretty much off the table for being useful or applicable (besides maybe Libra--and that's pushing it). The only realistic one is Lissa pair up (but then you gimp your only healer for +Luk until Maribelle). Is that worth it? At that point the stat isn't worth fighting for; cut your loss and end up eating bad luck vs eating your healer as a perpetual luck bot (ignoring any opportunity cost of other spouses). In the long run it doesn't matter (because luck falls off pretty hard). But the long run isn't the only thing that matters when you want to compare it across the whole game (mainly the actual hard part).

Make sure support level is A and over, also make sure the pair up unit's Luck is at 30 and higher.

You said it yourself, the hardest part of the game is the beginning (restricted resource). Nobody has 30 Luck in those early chapters. Not even 20. Some have 10 (be it base Ricken or some exp focus), but that will net you a whopping +1.

[Xenomata]

The only real source of +Luk is coming from Chrom early game. And if you aren't going the FeMU x Chrom route (which doesn't really lead into Lon'qu or Lissa pair up), then you aren't getting much. Swordmaster/War Cleric/Villager/Dancer are all pretty much off the table for being useful or applicable (besides maybe Libra--and that's pushing it). The only realistic one is Lissa pair up (but then you gimp your only healer for +Luk until Maribelle). Is that worth it? At that point the stat isn't worth fighting for; cut your loss and end up eating bad luck vs eating your healer as a perpetual luck bot (ignoring any opportunity cost of other spouses). In the long run it doesn't matter (because luck falls off pretty hard). But the long run isn't the only thing that matters when you want to compare it across the whole game (mainly the actual hard part).

Make sure support level is A and over, also make sure the pair up unit's Luck is at 30 and higher.

You said it yourself, the hardest part of the game is the beginning (restricted resource). Nobody has 30 Luck in those early chapters. Not even 20. Some have 10 (be it base Ricken or some exp focus), but that will net you a whopping +1.

Actually at first I was talking only about Armsthrift, which really doesn't get to leave a very large impact until 35 luck and higher, when the activation becomes 70%+, aka long after you begin training.

But even early game, luck simply doesn't leave that much impact. Skill only increases critical rate by 1 for every 2 skill, and luck increases your critical avoid by 1 for each point of luck you have. Myrmidons will be tiresome in that regard, but in terms of the hardest chapters in the game, they only appear in the Prologue chapter, and I don't believe Mercenaries have enough skill to warrant very many criticals, only enough to warrant the ability to hit.

[Guest Corrin]

After at least five quick plays through Normal Newcomer I finally decided to start a bit harder file, mainly for decent StreetPass teams. That's how my Hard Classic playthrough began (has yet to begin, I'm waiting before chapter 2 :P).

Right now, I'm looking for the best pairings. I did this list from five websites:

Chrom - Olivia

Henry - Sumia

Ricken - Miriel

Libra - Lissa

Stahl - Cordelia

Gregor - Panne

MU/Kellam - Nowi

Frederick/Vaike - Cherche

Donnel/Vaike - Sully

Lon'qu - Maribelle

Gaius - Tharja

? - Tiki

As you can see, I'm struggling between a few. But none of these have been locked in, so feel free to correct me. Also, I'm not against 2nd gen to 1st gen pairings, it's just that none of the sites did lists with such pairings in it.

So I'm looking forward for suggestions, and thanks in advance!

[Shadow Mir]

Actually at first I was talking only about Armsthrift, which really doesn't get to leave a very large impact until 35 luck and higher, when the activation becomes 70%+, aka long after you begin training.

But even early game, luck simply doesn't leave that much impact. Skill only increases critical rate by 1 for every 2 skill, and luck increases your critical avoid by 1 for each point of luck you have. Myrmidons will be tiresome in that regard, but in terms of the hardest chapters in the game, they only appear in the Prologue chapter, and I don't believe Mercenaries have enough skill to warrant very many criticals, only enough to warrant the ability to hit.

Those aren't the only enemy units I'd be worried about with regard to crits - what about Dark Mages (Anathema + possible Thunder magic), Mages (Focus + possible Thunder magic), Fighters (Zeal), and especially Barbarians (Gamble)?

Edited August 4, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Ownagepuffs]

And just what part of the game is the hardest? At any rate, that's the point I'm trying to get across - I'd rather not be even more susceptible to a restart because an enemy got a critical hit, particularly in the hardest part of the game. Aside from that, if you wanted Armsthrift, a Luck flaw hurts you there, too.

Are we talking about the same Harold that's THE most crit-susceptible character in the series (because for all the flak he gets for it, at least Knoll was in a game where you had an item that negated enemy critical chances)?

Yeah that Harold. They had you in mind when making him, I bet.