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Not a fan of A rank supports (especially Lucina since she has so many good options). Some of the classes are a little off center. Assassin sort of faded out of relevance when you can get 75/69 Spd on hard hitting classes. Sorc usually is inferior to Sage (and everyone who could be a Sorc on your list of classes could be Sage). You have a pretty good supply of Snipers though.

Just be sure to check which Spd benchmarks you want before you slap on AS+2 when you're deciding on skills.

I find though the main problem with Sage is that they don't have a 3+ range tome to use and the class looks a little odd on anyone that isn't Miriel, Lissa and Emmeryn. I will take your advice into consideration however.

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The only viable 3 range weapons are the long and double bow (which is also why Snipers are so fantastic). That's because they can proc skills and dual strikes. And on the chance you have enough Spd, they can also double enemies. Mire sounds really good in a vacuum, but its plink damage is negligible relative to the 3 range bows.

edit: and it's not like Sage is the end all say all vs Sorc. Sure it's definitely a downgrade in pretty much everything (lower mag, skl, spd, and worse pair up boosts), but look at the differences.

Sage has +2 Mag, +5 Skl, +2 Spd in caps and +1 Mag, +4 Skl in pair up.

Sure, you get waste. But waste isn't exactly that great either. It's got way less hit (~35 on equal forge) and not effective against the fliers. A waste Sorc will do ~2 damage per swing more than a celica's Sage. Is that worth the hit rate that might need some extra cushion? Not shredding the fliers? ~2% DS? Not really.

But if you look at those numbers... the not really isn't saying much. At the end of the day, those numbers are low, single digits. LB alone will shatter any of those numbers by far. If you really wanted to off looks, don't feel like it will define how well your team will be.

Edited by Vascela
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The only viable 3 range weapons are the long and double bow (which is also why Snipers are so fantastic). That's because they can proc skills and dual strikes. And on the chance you have enough Spd, they can also double enemies. Mire sounds really good in a vacuum, but its plink damage is negligible relative to the 3 range bows.

edit: and it's not like Sage is the end all say all vs Sorc. Sure it's definitely a downgrade in pretty much everything (lower mag, skl, spd, and worse pair up boosts), but look at the differences.

Sage has +2 Mag, +5 Skl, +2 Spd in caps and +1 Mag, +4 Skl in pair up.

Sure, you get waste. But waste isn't exactly that great either. It's got way less hit (~35 on equal forge) and not effective against the fliers. A waste Sorc will do ~2 damage per swing more than a celica's Sage. Is that worth the hit rate that might need some extra cushion? Not shredding the fliers? ~2% DS? Not really.

But if you look at those numbers... the not really isn't saying much. At the end of the day, those numbers are low, single digits. LB alone will shatter any of those numbers by far. If you really wanted to off looks, don't feel like it will define how well your team will be.

While that is all true, there's also the flipside: LB can be a necessity, not a luxury--nothing but GF is better, and GF isn't available to everyone. Breaking speed caps in Apo really can mean that a difference of two Spd matters--it's the reason All+2 is still a useful skill despite the existence of LB, it's just more niche. Or perhaps you have "five skill slot syndrome," to borrow a term from the Pokemon meta. Being able to skip All+2 in favor of Anathema, or VVW, or some other combo can be quite valuable. Heck, even getting the ability to grab Quick Burn, Lucky Seven, or Hit+20 can be a Big Deal.

A small difference in raw value, whether relative or absolute, is only small when it doesn't create knock-on effects. Sage is good; you make small sacrifices to play a Sorc, and that can be a perfectly valid choice. But if small sacrifices create a sudden shift in results, it may not be as valid.

Edited by amiabletemplar
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Probably Assassin. For Apo, I don't think it matters as long as she's got All+2.

You're correct. Cordelia @ FK gives a base speed of 46. +10 LB, +10 rallies, +2 tonic, +3 base support gives a total of +25, putting her at 71. DF gives a further +3 Spd at S support (total: 74), and All+2 gets you past the post. Assassin actually gives substantial overkill (+6 class support, putting her at 77 Spd), but removes the need for All+2. I'd call the two a tossup; you "waste" points on unnecessary Spd and lose out on a bit of Str/Mag, but you get an extra skill slot. *shrug*

Also: good to see you're still alive and kicking!

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Can anyone explain what the basics of this "metagame" (assuming someone still plays Awakening)are and what things are good in it (classes,skills, ...)?

Apo 101:

Galeforce spread; strong lead class; strong support class; reasonably hit appropriate Spd thresholds (75/69) while in those classes. Of course, delegate slots to Olivia and bots (1-4 rally bots and X rescue bots, which depends on your skill level and team comp). Alternatively, you could toss that out the window and learn vengeance (not recommended for beginners). Rally bots run 5 unique rallies. Rescue bots only use the rescue staff to give map long mobility to units.

Commonly seen classes: Berserker, Sniper, Dark Flier, Wyvern Lord, Sage, Valk. Pair ups are physical/physical and magical/magical. There are exceptions to every rule--such as Sniper/Sage.

Skills depend on your DLC available and your pairings. If you have DLC, then having access to LB grants (obviously) +10 Spd. If you sit at 73/74 Spd, slap on AS+2. Why 75? The fastest enemies in the map (Anna and the 2 Sniper bosses) have 70 Spd. So, 75 doubles all enemies on the map. Why 69? That doubles everything other than those 3 enemies. While it's true that theoretically every unit can reach 75 Spd, it's not true that it's worth it. An assassin/assassin Kellam!Nah!Morgan (an extreme example that shouldn't be used) can, but damn those classes are going to hold you back a lot more than not reaching 75 Spd. There's always a mark to drop down from, so don't be afraid if you can't reach certain marks reasonably.

Other than that, be sure to give leads an appropriate offensive proc. If you have room to have two non-Sol/non-vengeance procs, go for it. Auras, like Charm, Hex, and Anathema, are also good staples. Those auras can be spread across your rescue bots as well.

Offensive is favored over defense. Don't run skills like Pavise/Aegis/Dual Guard+.

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Metagame's loosest definition is the game outside the game. Ideas planned in advance before doing anything (in your listed examples, LoL lane setups, picks and bans, etc.).

Apo can be seen as a similar structure. Top/Jungle/Mid/ADC/Support relative to Combat Pairs/Snipers/Rally/Rescue Bots. We use knowledge outside the game to apply what we think to be the best solution to something. In LoL terms for lane setups, it would be the best solution for 5 players having only access to 4 [good] sources of income.

Anyone?

I'm not planing to take them to Apo.

For in game? I like keeping Sully in her high movement classes. I don't particularly like Myrmidon on her even though the skills from there can be really nice. If it's for L+, you can disregard that;I don't think there's a reasonable answer.

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Metagame's loosest definition is the game outside the game. Ideas planned in advance before doing anything (in your listed examples, LoL lane setups, picks and bans, etc.).

Apo can be seen as a similar structure. Top/Jungle/Mid/ADC/Support relative to Combat Pairs/Snipers/Rally/Rescue Bots. We use knowledge outside the game to apply what we think to be the best solution to something. In LoL terms for lane setups, it would be the best solution for 5 players having only access to 4 [good] sources of income.

For in game? I like keeping Sully in her high movement classes. I don't particularly like Myrmidon on her even though the skills from there can be really nice. If it's for L+, you can disregard that;I don't think there's a reasonable answer.

Normal casual and I have already done a fair bit of grinding with them, Stahl and Sully are ready to finish up while Kjelle has a fair bit to go.

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I'm sorry could you please clarify what you mean? I'm a little confused.

I believe what he means is:

Stahl as Sniper, Sully as whatever you prefer (presumably BK or WL, as high-Mov strong classes), with Sully leading and having Deliverer. Gets you a very high-Mov unit when Sully leads, with the option of switching to Stahl and sniping when you have them in a good position.

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I believe what he means is:

Stahl as Sniper, Sully as whatever you prefer (presumably BK or WL, as high-Mov strong classes), with Sully leading and having Deliverer. Gets you a very high-Mov unit when Sully leads, with the option of switching to Stahl and sniping when you have them in a good position.

Ah, I see, although Sully doesn't have Bow Knight, she has Great Knight as a reclass option.

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Ah, I see, although Sully doesn't have Bow Knight, she has Great Knight as a reclass option.

I must have somehow misread Great Knight as Bow Knight, or conflated Sully and Stahl's class options. Sorry about that! It's sort of a tossup which would be better, then. WL has better overall stats (-2 Str is worth getting +4 Skl and +1 Spd), but the only faire Sully gets is Swordfaire and you'd need to be a Great Knight (or a Paladin, I guess, but that would be worse) to use it. So GK is better for pure damage output, potentially being +7 Str ahead, but WL will be more versatile, especially if you don't equip Sully with a Ragnell so she can hit 1-2 range with a sword.

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Which leave Stahl!Kjelle looking for her final class. I think I've yet to work out Lon'qu!Owain's final class as well, although his paired up with Frederick!Cynthia who will be a lancefaire falcon knight, so I'll assume that she'll need either a speed boost or something that will dish out a lot of damage.

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Which leave Stahl!Kjelle looking for her final class. I think I've yet to work out Lon'qu!Owain's final class as well, although his paired up with Frederick!Cynthia who will be a lancefaire falcon knight, so I'll assume that she'll need either a speed boost or something that will dish out a lot of damage.

LQ!Owain: Definitely Berserker--it does both high-damage and Spd boost.

Stahl!Kjelle would most likely go Sniper, though if you have her supporting a Galeboy, Assassin may be better for its support stats. A total of +4 Str, +4 Skl, +6 Spd is nothing to sneeze at.

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Thoughts guys:

Chrom x Cassandra (my unit)

Ricken x Lissa

Gaius x Tharja

Lon'qu x Cordelia

Donnel x Sully

Henry x Sumia

Frederick x Panne

Virion x Cherche

Gregor x Miriel

Vaike x Nowi

Libra x Maribelle

Stahl x Olivia

Edited by MeddlingMage
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Thoughts guys:

Chrom x Cassandra (my unit)

Ricken x Lissa

Gaius x Tharja

Lon'qu x Cordelia

Donnel x Sully

Henry x Sumia

Frederick x Panne

Virion x Cherche

Gregor x Miriel

Vaike x Nowi

Libra x Maribelle

Stahl x Olivia

Alright, let's check that out...

Most of your pairings are good. That said...

Morgan is sadly going to be underwhelming in Apo due to Chrom's rather middling mods. That stated, he'll work for the main game, and Apo can be easily stomped with only a few optimized pairs.

Lucina gets aplenty classes, but depending on MU's mods, her final class is going to vary.

Yarne is a bizarre case, as while he'll work as General, he could be better. Just swap Fred and Stahl for Hit+20, and he's ready to kick butt as a Zerker.

Owain & Brady will work in any magic class. So will Laurent, you could use Nosfertanking in non-Apo business to wreck everything.

Noire's role will depend on the rest of your team. GF Sniper, Levin Dark Knight, Bow Knight...

Sev can do SF Hero or LF Wyvern with Zerk support.

Kjelle want a leading class with appropriate Faire.

Cynthia wants a magic class like Dark Flier.

Gerome is a Bowfaire Warrior.

Nah is most likely going to be Axefaire Hero.

Inigo wants a physical class with appropriate faire.

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