PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[amiabletemplar]

Thoughts guys:

Chrom x Cassandra (my unit)

Ricken x Lissa

Gaius x Tharja

Lon'qu x Cordelia

Donnel x Sully

Henry x Sumia

Frederick x Panne

Virion x Cherche

Gregor x Miriel

Vaike x Nowi

Libra x Maribelle

Stahl x Olivia

HadesRayne pretty solidly covered all the bases, so I'll mostly give filler-fluff here.

Pick your Avatar's stats with care. Chrom's mods are kinda everywhere, but lean slightly physical. The "optimal" choice is probably +Spd/-Def, as it patches up the Luck penalty while contributing to a stat that everyone wants to have lots of for doubling. But if you want Lucina and M-Morgan to be magic-focused, you can totally do +Mag/-Def instead. (You'll rarely see anything other than -Def recommended as an Avatar's flaw, simply because it only hurts one valuable stat, Luck, and even then only slightly--it has the fewest trade-offs.)

As HR said, consider swapping to Stahl!Yarne and Fred!Inigo. Their stats aren't particularly different, but Yarne really wants Hit+20, because he makes a great supporting male, while Inigo (as a galeboy) can easily play a lead unit and thus use procs instead of passives. Getting Archer is a bigger deal than replacing Yarne's "lost" Wyvern Rider inheritance from Panne. Alternatively, you could swap Fred and Virion, as Gerome will (most likely) be your "bench" character for the child generation.

Also, generally I hear Vaike!Nah being set for Axefaire General, as that gives her the highest Str she can get, but Hero may have other advantages I don't know about.

Otherwise, all your picks are either "expected" for the set (Henry x Sumia is the prime choice when you have Chrom x FeMU, Sully x Donnel and Tharja x Gaius makes for more galegirls), very strong picks (Gregor!Laurent, LQ!Severa, etc.), or "doing the best with what you've got" (Vaike!Nah). You'll have strong, competent kids almost no matter what you do with them.

Think about stuff like who you want to pair with whom, and whether stats line up in reasonable ways. E.g. Henry!Cynthia is a pretty Mag-focused one--she'll pair well with a Mag-focused boy, like Ricken!Owain or Libra!Brady. This can also feed back into your choice of Avatar stats--maybe you like the idea of (say) Brady x Lucina, so you'd want Mag as your asset. Or you could do Lucina x Laurent, and put them as either physical or magic as you like, in which case Spd is a great choice for asset (as it is useful to any class).

[HadesRayne]

Also, generally I hear Vaike!Nah being set for Axefaire General, as that gives her the highest Str she can get, but Hero may have other advantages I don't know about.

Much higher Spd (42 vs 35)-enough to reach 69 with AS+2 and +0 partner in Apo conditions for Hero, while General wants + Spd support.

Also, more versatile pair-up boosts (+3 Spd / Skl, +2 Def versus + 3 Str, + 5 Def), and she wants a Galeboy husband.

Hero!Nah can help any of the three Galeboys (everyone love Spd & Skl), but Owain & Brady being magical, they have no need for General pair-up boosts.

And Nah / Inigo (who is more hybrid) is just... ugh. Although, physical M!Morgan can circumvent that issue altogether.

Mobility is a non-issue for both classes because V!N has both Deliverer and Mov+1.

[amiabletemplar]

Much higher Spd (42 vs 35)-enough to reach 69 with AS+2 and +0 partner in Apo conditions for Hero, while General wants + Spd support.

Also, more versatile pair-up boosts (+3 Spd / Skl, +2 Def versus + 3 Str, + 5 Def), and she wants a Galeboy husband.

Hero!Nah can help any of the three Galeboys (everyone love Spd & Skl), but Owain & Brady being magical, they have no need for General pair-up boosts.

And Nah / Inigo (who is more hybrid) is just... ugh. Although, physical M!Morgan can circumvent that issue altogether.

Mobility is a non-issue for both classes because V!N has both Deliverer and Mov+1.

Thank you for the detailed, patient explanation. I know there is still much for me to learn about FE strategy.

[MeddlingMage]

Thoughts of these pairings:

Robin (+speed/-def) x Cordelia

Chrom x Sumia

Vaike x Lissa

Lon'qu x Olivia

Gaius x Tharja

Donnel x Sully

Virion x Cherche

Stahl x Panne

Gregor x Miriel

Libra x Maribelle

Henry x Nowi

It leaves Kellam and Frederick open for no one. Thoughts gang. The top 6 pairings are the main kids that I will be using.

[amiabletemplar]

Thoughts of these pairings:

Robin (+speed/-def) x Cordelia

Chrom x Sumia

Vaike x Lissa

Lon'qu x Olivia

Gaius x Tharja

Donnel x Sully

Virion x Cherche

Stahl x Panne

Gregor x Miriel

Libra x Maribelle

Henry x Nowi

It leaves Kellam and Frederick open for no one. Thoughts gang. The top 6 pairings are the main kids that I will be using.

Vaike x Lissa is an unusual choice. The modifiers aren't great, which feels wasteful when Vaike can provide so much Str to the right children, and the class inheritance isn't very good since Owain already has Berserker. If you make any changes, this is definitely the first place I'd look. In fact, I think you'd get a lot out of switching to Virion x Lissa and Vaike x Cherche, because Vaike!Gerome gets Berserker (making him a decent support), while Virion!Owain picks up Sniper and all the goodness that entails (or becomes a slightly better Sage).

Alternatively, you could do Henry!Gerome, Virion!Owain, and Vaike!Nah, which I think ends up being a further slight improvement.

Most of your other picks are pretty standard (e.g. Gregor!Laurent) or making the best of what you've got left (e.g. Libra!Maribelle). LQ!Inigo doesn't get as much from class inheritance, but that +5 Spd/Skl is among the best things you can do with him since he's not marrying Cordelia.

Your natural choice for a "bench" character here is Nah, since you have female Morgan. If you choose to have Nowi marry Henry or Vaike, you might consider passing down Rally Strength, rather than Axefaire. If you don't choose to just keep her benched completely (which would be understandable), Nah could work as a rally Sage, though spotpass chars are still better for that use.

[HadesRayne]

Thoughts of these pairings:

Robin (+speed/-def) x Cordelia

Chrom x Sumia

Vaike x Lissa

Lon'qu x Olivia

Gaius x Tharja

Donnel x Sully

Virion x Cherche

Stahl x Panne

Gregor x Miriel

Libra x Maribelle

Henry x Nowi

It leaves Kellam and Frederick open for no one. Thoughts gang. The top 6 pairings are the main kids that I will be using.

Let's see...

Gotta be honest, as AT said before me, Vaike!Owain isn't very good.

Neither is LQ!Inigo, for that matter. Eveything else is good. So, what to do ?

Well, you haven't mentioned Ricken. And yet, he's your best option for Owain, with Luna and ton of Mag.

Unless you are a Vengeance user... in which case swapping Vaike and Henry is your simplest option.

That or some shuffling around to have Libra on him, both will work (try to give LQ to Brady in that case, since iirc he's regularly used almost only on Brady and Severa.)

Inigo ? Shove Fred (Luna) or Henry / Libra (Vengeance) on him. Problem solved.

Effectively, you may end up benching Nah because of F!Morgan.

In which case give, you should give her one of the weaker fathers.

Henry's one of the better, so it feels rather wasteful.

You could try to put him on Gerome (Zerk + Anathema for Hit boosting, works almost exactly like Yarne, if you prefer that to Virion's BF Warrior, of course), Owain or Inigo.

Put Vaike on Nah-he's only really useful on her and Severa, who's dad is already locked.

Choose Avatar's asset / flaw well. + Str or Spd, - Def are most likely your strongest options. Don't do -Lck (you lose dual offenses for Ignis) or -Mag (you lose Spd, which is bad).

You'll end up with three dads on the bench rather than the usual two.

[Vascela]

Thoughts of these pairings:

Robin (+speed/-def) x Cordelia

Chrom x Sumia

Vaike x Lissa

Lon'qu x Olivia

Gaius x Tharja

Donnel x Sully

Virion x Cherche

Stahl x Panne

Gregor x Miriel

Libra x Maribelle

Henry x Nowi

It leaves Kellam and Frederick open for no one. Thoughts gang. The top 6 pairings are the main kids that I will be using.

Vaike!Owain has a few problems. If you really want a physical Owain, he'll take someone like Stahl. Otherwise, he'll take vengeance or luna father going magic.

Brady is the only galeboy who will take Lon'qu (besides a 3rd gen Lon'qu based Morgan). Inigo would rock solo astra, which won't be very good.

Your other picks all are safe picks.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Vascela

[MeddlingMage]

How's this:

Robin x Cordelia

Ricken x Lissa

Chrom x Sumia

Lon'qu x Maribelle

Henry x Olivia

Gaius x Tharja

Donnel x Sully

Gregor x Miriel

Vaike x Nowi

Virion x Cherche

It leaves Libra, Kellam, and Fred single.

[HadesRayne]

How's this:

Robin x Cordelia

Ricken x Lissa

Chrom x Sumia

Lon'qu x Maribelle

Henry x Olivia

Gaius x Tharja

Donnel x Sully

Gregor x Miriel

Vaike x Nowi

Virion x Cherche

It leaves Libra, Kellam, and Fred single.

Every pairing is good here. Keep in mind a second generation girl will get the bench. My personal recommandation would be to bench Nah.

Severa's and Morgan's role will depend on their mods. Considering's Robin's asset/flaw (and assuming those haven't changed), good ol' GF + Proc skirmishing seems the best option. That, or Nosfertanking, but Sev's mag growth makes it unviable imo (Nosfertanking is unviable in Apo because of 80 Atk+ enemies w/Dragonskin & procs)

Lucina + Cynthia skirmish with GF + LunAether. Sniper + Zerk is a good option. DF is viable as well, although I'd rather put it on Cynthia because Lucina does not have the room for Tomefaire.

Owain & Brady are Luna + GF Sages.

Inigo uses Vengeance. As for his class... SM is rather poor in Apo. Assassin is a bit better. You could try Zerker, but his wife'll need Anathema (or Hex if sticking to melee combat) in her set for Hit. Hero (and technically BK, which is a watered-down Hero on a horse with Bows instead of Axes) is a decent all-around option.

Noire can do a lot of different things. Just, do not Nosfertank with her (no AT makes it poor). Sniper is decent. BK is good with +3 Spd support. DK and Trickster are gimmick options for Levin abuse with Sage husband.

Kjelle leads with appropriate class and Faire. She is too slow for General, however, and GK is terrible. Paladin or Hero are most likely the best options here. WL also comes to mind.

Laurent can Nosfertank in non-Apo stuff. Do keep in mind this makes the game laughably easy. Otherwise, make him a magic attacker. In Apo, hard support Sage. Berserker could work, but...

Nah... bench her. If you don't... you have AF Hero for leading, or AF General in the backline. But the guys outclass her a supporting because lolAggressor.

Gerome is a BF Warrior as hard support.

Yarne is a Berserker hard support.

I made this post a few pages ago, it contains general info on how to set up your character's skills for Apo.

Perhaps I should write an Apo guide...

Edited November 20, 2016 by HadesRayne

[MeddlingMage]

Should I basically take Lissa to Pegasus Knight after she gets Healtouch and get her going on those skills?

[Vascela]

Everything looks solid. Henry!Inigo can also go Sorc or take Libra and go Sage. Sorc is stormcrow to Sage, but it's actually not that much worse.

Sniper is decent.

Perhaps I should write an Apo guide...

You have much to learn padawan.

[HadesRayne]

You have much to learn padawan.

We all have much to learn.

And I do realize Snipers are awesome.

Longbows alone shuts down quite a few threatening enemies (from the top of my head, invicisorcs, goddess Anna, arguably Ikeadin & his falcoknight buddy).

High skill helps a ton with procrate and DS% (except for Lucy / Chrom because DS+ is one of the best non-LB skill in the game)

Decent Str and rather good distribution (Lucy & Noire always get it, Cynthia quite often, Avatar & Morgan as well)

Excellent synergy with Zerker (Especially w/ Chrom / Sumia, because two 75 Spd Snipers w/ Zerk support.)

Only flaw of the class (1-rng, lackluster defenses) is a non-issue because Apo is 100% Player Phase combat anyway and Sniper's whole shtick is to outrange and kill its enemies without possibility of retaliation from them. Which is a must in Apo due to the extremely threatening enemies (basically everything has 80+ Atk & procs, dragonskin makes Nosferatanking unviable). This is also what makes EP combat / tanking in Apo a terrible idea.

In fact, not knowing / understanding that you cannot afford EP combat is what truly makes Apo difficult. Once you understand that Apo is all about picking enemies off one by one on PP, never giving them the possibility of rushing a character in EP, through liberal use of Gale / Dancing / Rescue staves, it becauses much easier.

In the normal game, you can afford to let them attack you, since bar Lunatic+ (which is not the subject of this thread anyway), almost nothing has a combination of procs and enough power to break tanks, especially if they heal. I do believe the Lunatic Final Boss could have powerful enough minions, but barring that...

tl;dr Snipers aren't "decent" in Apo, it's closer to "best class" - in that precise situation, the nature of Apo makes it an extremely powerful class.

[Vascela]

V/V is dominantly EP combat and by far one of, if not the, strongest possible tactics...

[amiabletemplar]

V/V is dominantly EP combat and by far one of, if not the, strongest possible tactics...

Sure, I don't think anyone would deny that V/V can be quite potent. But, at least based on the discussions I've seen here before, it's also risky, which is a concern in Apo, where it is generally considered unwise to allow anything to happen where you aren't almost certain as to the outcome. One must also consider the opportunity cost--what else could those two skill slots be doing, particularly if they're the only slots you have? (That is, GF and LB are near-guarantees on lead units, and galeboys will probably want Agg as well, meaning V/V takes the remainder.) Again, this is not to say that it is weak, because it can be very strong. Rather, like every tactic, it has concerns and costs to it.

[Vascela]

The risk comes from not being able to do math. It's pure calculation every step. Miscalculation is certainly severely punishing (reset), but that's a human error that shouldn't have happened. That's the player's fault--not the skill's fault.

The opportunity cost? Probably a proc stack.

_{Tomefaire/Vantage/Vengeance/Mag+2/Skl+2 is for my Morgan...}

[amiabletemplar]

The risk comes from not being able to do math. It's pure calculation every step. Miscalculation is certainly severely punishing (reset), but that's a human error that shouldn't have happened. That's the player's fault--not the skill's fault.

The opportunity cost? Probably a proc stack.

_{Tomefaire/Vantage/Vengeance/Mag+2/Skl+2 is for my Morgan...}

Er, shouldn't Morgan at least have GF, to capitalize more on that Vengeance proc during player phase? You wouldn't even need to give up any stats for it--Limit Breaker will give you far more than Mag+2 and Skl+2 would, for fewer skills--or, if you don't care to grind out the points, just use All+2 instead.

Also, you seem to be neglecting that allowing combats during EP means giving the computer the choice of which enemies fight. It's not just "can you do the calculation for this opponent," it becomes "can you do the calculation for every opponent you might face?" Avoiding all EP engagements means always fighting battles on your terms, which is something strategists have agreed is a Good Thing To Do for millennia (Sun Tzu wrote about it ~2500 years ago). Yes, it's totally possible to crunch all the numbers for every hypothetical, but that's a lot of extra calculation you could skip with pure-PP combat. If pure-PP combat is still highly effective, while being both "safer" (less need for resets) and "easier" (reduced calculation load), then it may not matter if some other strategy is dramatically stronger. If the extra power isn't necessary, the extra effort may not be worth it. Like paying double the money to get a video card that's only 10% more powerful--sure, some people will do it, because they won't settle for less than bleeding edge, but others won't, because they don't need the small increase in effectiveness to do what they intend to do.

Edited November 22, 2016 by amiabletemplar

[Vascela]

I don't have access to any DLC besides Apo, so skills like LB, Agg, and AS+2 are all thrown away. Mag+2 and Skl+2 are for reaching specific benchmarks. I wouldn't be able to complete certain challenges like no dlc/no rally by using galeforce instead of one of them.

I usually have two vengeance sages, one with galeforce and one without. Simply because it is that good. Sometimes you have to squeeze out 2 mag for that last point in damage, sometimes you don't.

The enemies choice on who to fight boils down to whatever units are in range on EP... which is one (v/v sage). Rescue staff is used for both mobility in and out of enemy range. The real challenge was learning AI patterns. Some enemy staffers prioritize attacking, some healing, and some abide by an enemy turn order. Knowing how each enemy behaves is just as important as being able to kill them.

I do run a lot of PP combat as well (5 Snipers + Chrom). And I run calculations for every, single fight. To the turn.

[MeddlingMage]

Changed a couple pairings around:

Robin (+Speed, -Def) x Lissa

Chrom x Sumia

Virion x Cherche

Lon'qu x Cordelia

Henry x Olivia

Gaius x Tharja

Donnel x Sully

Vaike x Nowi

Ricken x Maribelle

Gregor x Miriel

Stahl x Panne

[amiabletemplar]

Changed a couple pairings around:

Robin (+Speed, -Def) x Lissa

Chrom x Sumia

Virion x Cherche

Lon'qu x Cordelia

Henry x Olivia

Gaius x Tharja

Donnel x Sully

Vaike x Nowi

Ricken x Maribelle

Gregor x Miriel

Stahl x Panne

Looks pretty good to me. Stahl!Yarne gets the hit bonuses he wants, Vaike!Nah is a strong support girl, Ricken!Brady is a great choice when Lissa marries the Avatar, and you're hitting all the high points for the rest.

Any idea what particular classes or 2nd-gen pairings you'd like to pursue?

[Radiant head]

Changed a couple pairings around:

Robin (+Speed, -Def) x Lissa

Chrom x Sumia

Virion x Cherche

Lon'qu x Cordelia

Henry x Olivia

Gaius x Tharja

Donnel x Sully

Vaike x Nowi

Ricken x Maribelle

Gregor x Miriel

Stahl x Panne

may want to consider swapping henry for libra. inigo already has berserker, which means he won't gain anything extra from henry vs libra, whereas henry is reaaaally valuable on either gerome for hexathema berserker or at least axefaire, or nah (though vaike is good enough if not as good), or brady (ricken is good too but less overlap).

if you did cherche x henry, you could also do virion x maribelle because brady only wants +spd mods from a father.

if not, these are all still pretty good.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Radiant head

[vercio]

Pretty n00b pairing questions: wouldn't be better pairing Robin with Post-Game PGs?

[vercio]

Pretty n00b pairing questions: wouldn't be better pairing Robin with Post-Game PGs?

[Vascela]

By post game PGs do you mean 2nd gen units? Well, it really boils down to what you want to do. If there's a specific challenge or restriction you want to adhere to, such as no dlc/no rally or no dlc/no braves, then Morgan's mods and gender might become absolutely tenfold relevant. But, that's centering gameplay around Morgan (which may or may not be something you want to do). There are many reasons to center gameplay around Robin, Chrom, and Lucina as well. Sometimes units like Severa have the potential to be powerhouses without needing Robin as a parent or a spouse. Or, you take a completely different turn and try to make all combat units on equal footing.

Most of the time, the answer to the question "should I..." is "it depends." And that depends usually means, "you can make it work in many different ways."

[amiabletemplar]

Pretty n00b pairing questions: wouldn't be better pairing Robin with Post-Game PGs?

Vascela covered all the bases here, but I don't think it hurts to reiterate: "it depends." In the context of "what gives Morgan the biggest modifiers," yes, marrying one of the "child" characters (Lucina, Owain, etc.) gives Morgan the biggest modifiers. You (essentially) get the sum of all three parents (Avatar + child char's other two parents), which can be pretty substantial. However, "Morgan has best modifiers" is not an unequivocal good. It isn't strictly necessary for beating Apotheosis, for example, which means it isn't required to accomplish *any* particular goal.

When your focus is Apo, you have a 'window' of character optimization available to you--a range into which you can fall where the sum of your choices is sufficient to succeed. You do not need to make "perfect" build choices in order to fall in that range. As Vascela said, you can even accept various "challenges" that make the game harder. Or, you can not do that, and make cutbacks elsewhere and still be fine. There is no "true" or "best" path--every choice exists in the context of other choices you make. Push things too far, and you can't win anymore.

[Bane]

Pretty n00b pairing questions: wouldn't be better pairing Robin with Post-Game PGs?

You're talking about Priam and such from the extra maps, right? They're okay, they generally specialize in something more than any of the first generation parents do (such as Walhart's +4 strength and Defense) but they come extremely late and you'd still bench a child unit. If you really want one of these units they'd be better than a first gen unit if you only care about post-game stuff, but won't be as good as a child. You can play around with http://serenesforest.net/awakening/characters/maximum-stats/complete/ and see if the Post Game units get you stats for Morgan that you want that none of the children can provide.

If you really want to marry Priam or any of the others though, just do it and you'll be able to work with the consequences later.