What is the difference between Sexism/racism and things just being what they are?

[Snowy_One]

Pretty straight forwards. I'm sure we'd all agree that a black person or a woman losing her position to a more qualified person isn't sexism, but what about when there are multiple people competing for the same job? When is the brave knight rescuing the princess sexist, and when is it just a story being told? Were does the line lie?

[eclipse]

The question kind of answers itself, and yet it doesn't. I see it as "what's the motivation", and who in their right mind would say "oh it was gender/race that led me to fire someone from this job"?

[Phoenix Wright]

I'm really happy you didn't ask, "what if it's just that more blacks commit crimes because that's how they are?"

Because I probably wouldn't have been able to hold back in my post.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Phoenix Wright

[-Cynthia-]

It can often be difficult to find specific instances of discrimination with regards to hiring or promotional practices of organizations as the other applicants are also often qualified. In the case of a discrimination lawsuit, the plaintiff usually must demonstrate systematic discrimination of the organization against a protected class.

[Snowy_One]

I recently watched a video by Feminist Frequency for the lulz. She argued that, in any video game which has a male hero rescuing a female damsel held captive it is sexist, even if only on a subconscious level. Meanwhile there is nothing wrong at all with a female hero rescuing a male. Course this brings with it the implication that it's NEVER okay to rescue a girl if you are a guy while women ALWAYS have to play the hero, but that's beside the point. What makes me worry is the knowledge that there are people out there who really can't distinguish between sexism and people being people. If my mother is kidnapped is it sexist of me to try and save her? Should I, instead, try to rescue my father just because rescuing a girl reinforces negative gender steriotypes? By valuing the life of the cute girl over the elderly, will I get hate-mail for being... male?

[eclipse]

Just like everything else, all the negatives in society come with a gradient, and sexism is no different. She sounds like she resides on the higher end of things (in other words, not something I want to touch with a ten-foot pole). Why are you taking her seriously?

[deleted35362]

I recently watched a video by Feminist Frequency for the lulz.

feminism was significant in america back when males were much higher on the social scale than females were. females in america still do get the short end of the stick in some aspects but for the most part, feminism isn't really needed here anymore because feminism now is mostly just angry women trying to find reasons to complain.

...that's not to say that there aren't still countries that could really use some feminism. i'm not THAT ignorant ^^;

[Shin]

Just like everything else, all the negatives in society come with a gradient, and sexism is no different. She sounds like she resides on the higher end of things (in other words, not something I want to touch with a ten-foot pole). Why are you taking her seriously?

This is pretty much it. There's fighting for equality, and then there's fighting for supremacy.

[Snowy_One]

Just like everything else, all the negatives in society come with a gradient, and sexism is no different. She sounds like she resides on the higher end of things (in other words, not something I want to touch with a ten-foot pole). Why are you taking her seriously?

I don't. If I were to listen to her than just because Raine Sage and Collette are the healers, Sheena's outfit is revealing, and Presea needs something special to be able to fight, the Tales games are horribly sexist. What worries me is that, even though I see her as a joke, I know full well she's serious and there are people like that. I stopped reading Sinfest because of a similar (though less sever) feminist tilt a while back.

Edit: Also, nice Twilight Boney.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Snowy_One

[Redwall]

I recently watched a video by Feminist Frequency for the lulz. She argued that, in any video game which has a male hero rescuing a female damsel held captive it is sexist, even if only on a subconscious level. Meanwhile there is nothing wrong at all with a female hero rescuing a male. Course this brings with it the implication that it's NEVER okay to rescue a girl if you are a guy while women ALWAYS have to play the hero, but that's beside the point. What makes me worry is the knowledge that there are people out there who really can't distinguish between sexism and people being people. If my mother is kidnapped is it sexist of me to try and save her? Should I, instead, try to rescue my father just because rescuing a girl reinforces negative gender steriotypes? By valuing the life of the cute girl over the elderly, will I get hate-mail for being... male?

I don't think you understand the argument. Surely you and Sarkeesian would agree that the actual act of saving someone of the opposite gender is noble regardless of the sex of the savior, whether in video games or in real life.

Her claim is that the decision of the writers to disproportionately feature the same old "cis-het dude saves cis-het dudette" is sexist; Sarkeesian mentions how, in OoT, in the very same cutscene in which the manly-looking Sheik, who has been a pretty formidable ally to that point, reveals herself to be the feminine-looking Princess Zelda, she is then kidnapped, and that likewise in Wind Waker, once she is revealed to be the more feminine Princess Zelda, the butch-ish Tetra is relegated to sitting and waiting to be kidnapped. If you don't agree with this, then whatever, but it's important that we get on the same page.

More broadly, hiring decisions and such motivated by affirmative action are subjective attempts to correct for inequalities in opportunities caused by cultural or financial factors; because we're not mind-readers, we can't ascertain the exact thought process behind every single decision and whether or not they were made with conscious or unconscious discrimination in mind, or if an employer sincerely believes that, after controlling for inequalities in opportunities (a subjective task), the white candidate simply made better use of his opportunities than did the black candidate. But, the plural of anecdote is data, so that's what empirical social scientists can use.

[Snowy_One]

I never saw those things as sexist though. Merely as being part of the plot. If Sheik had been kidnapped, yea I enjoyed his/her company, but all Sheik really did was teach me songs. Zelda is the triforce holder, not Sheik (at least until the truth is revealed). Almost the exact same deal with Tetra. Not claiming that there isn't sexism in some games, just that it seems like EVERYTHING is sexist now-a-days.

Also, what about such things like Mirror's edge where the protagonist is female? Would the game suddenly be sexist if Faith had been a dude?

[Espinosa]

I just found this:

http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/06/harassment-misogyny-and-silencing-on-youtube/

Pretty hilarious. She can't tell joke from harassment.

[Esau of Isaac]

I'm really happy you didn't ask, "what if it's just that more blacks commit crimes because that's how they are?"

Because I probably wouldn't have been able to hold back in my post.

Actually, people have lost their careers over even suggesting the possibility that this is true. As someone who truly gets off on being the Devil's Advocate this rustled my jimmies. This man was lambasted a few years ago for coming out with the statement that while we shouldn't twist data to fit our worldviews, we also shouldn't instantly discount the possibility of any number of things that we hate being true, in this case racist stereotypes.

[Momo]

feminism was significant in america back when males were much higher on the social scale than females were. females in america still do get the short end of the stick in some aspects but for the most part, feminism isn't really needed here anymore because feminism now is mostly just angry women trying to find reasons to complain.

...that's not to say that there aren't still countries that could really use some feminism. i'm not THAT ignorant ^^;

Considering you wrote this post, yeah, you are. I think the fact that this is a topic at all shows there are still tons of problems with the way women are treated in this country.

[Redwall]

I never saw those things as sexist though. Merely as being part of the plot. If Sheik had been kidnapped, yea I enjoyed his/her company, but all Sheik really did was teach me songs. Zelda is the triforce holder, not Sheik (at least until the truth is revealed). Almost the exact same deal with Tetra. Not claiming that there isn't sexism in some games, just that it seems like EVERYTHING is sexist now-a-days.

Also, what about such things like Mirror's edge where the protagonist is female? Would the game suddenly be sexist if Faith had been a dude?

Can't comment on Mirror Edge since I've never played it, but let me reiterate that I am not claiming all games in which dudes save dudettes to be sexist.

OoT: When he kidnaps Zelda in the future, Ganondorf makes it clear that he has been keeping tabs on Link. Presumably Ganondorf has some kind of magical, all-seeing eye. Why, then, did he not keep tabs on Zelda in the past in a similar fashion, which would have allowed him to kidnap Zelda while in Sheikah form? Alternatively, Ganon could have shot first and asked questions later by kidnapping Sheik and confirming a Triforce mark on her hand (this one I'm not so sure about; did OoT feature Triforce marks on the chosen three?). The writers could have come up with many possibilities, but instead they chose to have the kidnapping of Zelda coincide perfectly with her reversion from Sheik.

WW: One might reasonably argue that Zelda is hidden to protect her piece of the Triforce, but if that were the case, Ganondorf could have had a good part of his team search for the shattered Triforce of Courage. Instead, he invests apparently no time in searching for the Triforce of Courage but chooses to invest exclusively in hunting down Zelda.

I just found this:

http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/06/harassment-misogyny-and-silencing-on-youtube/

Pretty hilarious. She can't tell joke from harassment.

That's clear harassment. The few jokes that are displayed are obvious personal attacks.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/harassment

1. To irritate or torment persistently.

2. To wear out; exhaust.

3. To impede and exhaust (an enemy) by repeated attacks or raids.

At least one user (almost certainly more) flagged her video for terrorism, which is just bizarre. It's fine if people disagree with her, but it's another thing to just drop everything and make no effort to argue.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Redwall

[Rehab]

There's simply a huge disparity in representation when there's no proven reason why there should be. Look at the number of female and non-white heroes there are. Look at the number of them that have been portrayed with stereotypes embedded into their character. It's not like we don't have any, to be sure, but that just makes it all the more weird why there aren't more, as it's obviously not a physical law that they can't exist (see: games with exclusively female heroes, in aggregate, being given a way smaller advertising budget when stacked up against games with exclusively male heroes).

Look at how many women are in the top whatever percent of earners and positions of power in a given business. Compare how much those who are there earn with how much the top male earners make.

Look at how commonly the "damsel-in-distress" plot impetus is still used, without a lick of a critical eye towards its execution. It's usually not even framed as "wonderful person of power whose given authority is the litmus test for peace and prosperity in this universe has been unfairly removed from her position by overwhelming odds and we can restore order only with her return," it's still way more often "welp the goddamn assholes took the fuckin girl, saddle up boys."

Think about whether this sends a message. Let's cut off a huge swath of the conversation by saying, for the sake of argument, these representations (or lack of) aren't of themselves hurting anybody. Can we still say, that when we put them all together, and stack up all the disparities between the amounts of power held squarely by white het dudes, and that which [everybody else] holds, that everything is just fine, and actively trying to balance the two isn't necessary?

Individual games, people, and assignments of positions of power that aren't immediately living up to feminist or race or whatever liberation aren't all necessarily inherently sexist, racist, or in any way bad of their own accord. (They can be, but it's not a rule, I think it's safe to say.) It's the numbers game that really stinks.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Rehab

[Nobody]

I really hate real discrimination, like woman getting paid less for the same job, or someone being denied something because of their race and I find it extremely terrible if someone is treated in any way different because of their race/gender. Still, I I don't understand why it would be racist/sexist if some gender/ race is more or less represented on a media. There are more male video game heroes because most gamers are male. It's obvious. There are more white people than people from the other races in american TV because there are more white amerincans than americans from other races.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Nobody

[Redwall]

There are more male video game heroes because most gamers are male.

The difference in the number of male gamers vs. female gamers is pretty small, not enough to justify the disproportionate number of games featuring male heroes.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Redwall

[uguu]

I just found this:

http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/06/harassment-misogyny-and-silencing-on-youtube/

Pretty hilarious. She can't tell joke from harassment.

Gender: Male

lol

Also, to Nobody: even if you make a blanket statement about population numbers like that, it's still heavily disproportionate even taking stuff like that into account and the few minorities who do end up as notable characters have a tendency to be shoddily written stereotypes.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Hikarasuman

[Rehab]

I really hate real discrimination, like woman getting paid less for the same job, or someone being denied something because of their race and I find it extremely terrible if someone is treated in any way different because of their race/gender. Still, I I don't understand why it would be racist/sexist if some gender/ race is more or less represented on a media. There are more male video game heroes because most gamers are male. It's obvious. There are more white people than people from the other races in american TV because there are more white amerincans than americans from other races.

Yeah, the gamer thing is actually not that far from half and half. And if you lined up the number of nonwhite roles of importance with the number of nonwhite people in the U.S., the former would still be a lot less than, say, 50%. White people aren't actually a "majority" any more, they're just still the largest single group in the country, not the real bulk.

Dammit Hick

Edited August 27, 2013 by Rehab

[Nobody]

The difference in the number of male gamers vs. female gamers is pretty small, not enough to justify the disproportionate number of games featuring male heroes.

That's a very inclusive definition of gamer, including people who occasionally play on their phone or on facebook. I know it's anecdotal evidence, but I know many more guys who play video game consoles than girls, and it appears to be the same for most people. I mean, just look at any video game message board, even here on SF (which actually has a quite big female population compared to most other VG message boards).

[Espinosa]

Also, isn't it basic knowledge that somebody with a surname like Sarkeesian is of a different ethnic background to a Jew? Or am I expecting too much here

[Loki Laufeyson]

Just like everything else, all the negatives in society come with a gradient, and sexism is no different. She sounds like she resides on the higher end of things (in other words, not something I want to touch with a ten-foot pole). Why are you taking her seriously?

This.

This is pretty much it. There's fighting for equality, and then there's fighting for supremacy.

Indeed, which is something that severely grosses me out with some people who label themselves feminists. The radical sorts who dont want equality, but want men to be viewed as lesser or people who must be oppressed because of privilege. In my eyes, thats rather vile.

I don't think you understand the argument. Surely you and Sarkeesian would agree that the actual act of saving someone of the opposite gender is noble regardless of the sex of the savior, whether in video games or in real life.

Her claim is that the decision of the writers to disproportionately feature the same old "cis-het dude saves cis-het dudette" is sexist; Sarkeesian mentions how, in OoT, in the very same cutscene in which the manly-looking Sheik, who has been a pretty formidable ally to that point, reveals herself to be the feminine-looking Princess Zelda, she is then kidnapped, and that likewise in Wind Waker, once she is revealed to be the more feminine Princess Zelda, the butch-ish Tetra is relegated to sitting and waiting to be kidnapped. If you don't agree with this, then whatever, but it's important that we get on the same page.

More broadly, hiring decisions and such motivated by affirmative action are subjective attempts to correct for inequalities in opportunities caused by cultural or financial factors; because we're not mind-readers, we can't ascertain the exact thought process behind every single decision and whether or not they were made with conscious or unconscious discrimination in mind, or if an employer sincerely believes that, after controlling for inequalities in opportunities (a subjective task), the white candidate simply made better use of his opportunities than did the black candidate. But, the plural of anecdote is data, so that's what empirical social scientists can use.

As for the Zelda example, I dont think thats entirely accurate. Sheik, in one previous scene (pre-shadow temple Kakariko) was shown getting the crap knocked out of him. Link got creamed in the same scene. What it showed was that both characters are on equal footing more or less. When Zelda is revealed, shes not powerless. She and Link both get ambushed. The only issue i tend to have with the OoT example when it comes to Zelda, is her more or less standing around during the fight against Ganon. (the final one) Because she showed us that she was capable during the flight from Ganon's Castle, so her standing around made little sense. (Until she blasts the fuck out of Ganon that is.)

Wind Waker (and later Twilight Princess) mitigates this by having Zelda take part in the final battles. In WW, its unfair to say she was simply kidnapped just because she became more feminine. Tetra is young and borked up a mission at the very beginning of the game. Part of the argument can be chalked up to Ganon(dorf)'s motives. The problem in WW isnt that she gets kidnapped, but that she must hide in Hyrule Castle for a good portion of the game. Thats cause for some side-eye. King of Red Lions explains the reasoning but it doesnt hold water if she could simply go back to being Tetra and the pirates helping Link in his quest to awaken the Master Sword.

One pretty cool ass example of a Damsel In Distress being portrayed as a more empowering figure is the Paper Mario games. Emphasis on the first two games. Peach is kidnapped and being held against her will yet again. But instead of waiting around for Mario to come rescue her, she does numerous things to kick ass in her own way. Squeezing info out of characters, stealth mode, tricking the minions, making potions and/or cakes in order to get intel, etc. It does bother me that the normal Mario games dont do this more, but the episodic Peach moments in the first two Paper Mario games are often touted as being among the funnest and more interesting parts of those games. Seeing the Damsel do something is always refreshing.

[Samias]

That's a very inclusive definition of gamer, including people who occasionally play on their phone or on facebook. I know it's anecdotal evidence, but I know many more guys who play video game consoles than girls, and it appears to be the same for most people. I mean, just look at any video game message board, even here on SF (which actually has a quite big female population compared to most other VG message boards).

If you looked at the breakdown of statistics, 45% of gamers are female and social games make up 19% of the total games played online. Women are not the exclusive players of social games, but even if they made up 60% of the total people who played games on facebook, there's still a significant number of women out there playing other games. A recent survey by Square-Enix about the player base of FFXIV, after removing fake votes, determined roughly 40% of their playerbase was female. That's huge. 30% of Call of Duty: MW2 players were women. In the same source, 42% of World of Warcraft players are female, and 65% of Sims 3 players are female. This is not exclusively a man's hobby and I think game creators need to seriously consider what women actually want in games, not what they think women want in games. Ironically, EA is going backwards and forwards on this, as they headed a boneheaded marketing campaign for Dead Space 2 while simultaneously hitting a lot of the right notes with Mass Effect and The Sims.

Things being "just what they are" are a symptom of passive sexism. We have ingrained ideas of what roles people should play in society, but there is no reason why women should be so under-represented in so many ways. More and more women are going into post-secondary and yet we still have situations where many women are discouraged from becoming things like programmers or engineers. The word "doctor" still brings to mind a male occupation despite a rising number of women in medical school. If you want to see how men still get favoured over women, especially in the field of engineering, look no further than a man named Kim who added Mr. to his resume and suddenly got a job. On the other side of things, I find it equally sexist when restaurants look for waitresses only, because they want to put hot girls in tight, low-cut shirts to improve "service" and bring in more tips. And it's also sexist when men are found less qualified to care for children over women because we think women are more nurturing.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Samias

[Nobody]

It's not exactly about the "defined roles". It's just that I think that under representing a group is not necessarily a form of discrimination. I just don't see the big deal with being underrepresented in a fictional work. There's almost no video game set in my country and I don't see any problem with that, because I hate the few ones that are. If they're going to represent a group in a stereotypical and flawed way, it's better they don't represent it. That's the reason why I hate Max Payne 3, for example, because it shows my country in a bad way.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Nobody