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Robinigo

What if Tharja was a man?

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Okay, I was reading through one of those "convince me to like X" threads, and an interesting point caught my eye; RangerJackWalker mentioned that if Tharja was a man, and retained the appropriate not blatantly sexualized dialogue, she would be even more controversial than before.

Now, I have spent the last hour and a half reading through the supports, scripts, and the such, and it seems that as long as a few supports are tweaked and female S supports were added, it could be a fairly flawless transition. Virion's supports seem to show the most necessary change. The whole "avatar obsession" could simply switch the supports between the male and female and it could fit fairly well.

So, in the end, I feel Tharja could be left mostly alone and could have been just as good a male character as a female one. The real thing that would hinder this from being done well is the fact that M!Tharja now exemplifies male sexuality, which I guess could lead to a bit more controversial subjects, seeing as m!Tharja's chest couldn't be a main point in some conversations anymore. Or perhaps M!Tharja could simply not be sexualized, and just be a really dark and stalkerish person, or is male Yandere not a thing?

Anyway, that's it. Would you be fine if Tharja was a man? Would you hate her more, or less? Where on the husbando-meter would she rank?

Edited by SpikyRtG

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the answer will be a quote that I take from a review of this game

Creepy and Disgusting

Just like Female Tharja, which I know many would disagree simply because Tharja is female and gender bias inevitably strikes here

Lets put it this way, the A support(is it A?) where Tharja cursed the Avatar is perceived as "wow what a creepy yandere" because she is a female. For males? Imagine a dude drugging a chick, or another dude, and then raping them. Thats how it is.

The entire subject with Noire is already questionable as of right now. If Tharja is a dude, he will be perceived as an abusive father, the kind of character that is usually hated to death in Japanese animation(see: Gendou depending on how you look at it)

And since you bring up Virion, Virion is on an entirely different level of quality compared to any character in this game in term of writing. He's different because he is NOT a simple flirt like the game want us to think of him. If he become a female, I could see myself fanboying over the resulting character.

Edited by JSND

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I just meant that virion's supports with tharja would need to change if she was a dude, I've no problem with who virion is.

I guess Noire had hypocritically fell out of my mind as I expected m!tharja to qualify as a male character and not actually have a child.

And the whole drugging thing, I guess I didn't feel it was more wrong for either gender, apolgies if this sounds dickish, but if people clamor for gender equality, who am I to disappoint?

Edited by SpikyRtG

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Frederick: Aw, how sweet. She's sleeping. Sleeping and...helpless. Hee hee hee hee!

Even with the other gender, I think It's still pretty much the same. But feel free to imagine the scene yourself.

Edited by BrightBow

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Oh hey!

Anyway, I would find it just as disgusting. However, the problem here is that there is a very blatant double standard in play. Tharja would probably be the least popular character is she was a male character with no other changes. Right now, she's probably the most popular character and I believe it is solely because of her appearance.

If we were to believe media, a man raping/attempting to rape a woman is the most vile thing ever and usually brands him as the most disgusting villain. A woman attempting to rape a man is a romantic comedy. I kid you not. You can take a look at examples listed here to see just how differently the public reacts to such situations depending on the genders of the parties involved.

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Hah! Fair Enough, I suppose my opinions are not with the populous.

We could always change the avatar support, I never realized how creepy and offensive it'd be.

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I would like to think that most people are sensible about this and the people here certainly are very sensible but in other places? Sadly, not the case.

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34 isn't the genderbending one, it's the porn one. You might be thinking of 63?

(or both, that's cool too)

I think it depends on whether you consider the most important part of Tharja's schtick to be passive-aggressive menace, physical seduction, or both at the same time. I think that, realistically, a male Tharja could at least get away with one or the other, but I have a hard time imagining how Tharja's actions and dialogue in both areas could be translated verbatim to a male character without simply making Tharja a villain (assuming she isn't one thought of one already).

I mean, an allusion to date rape, stalking, and possessiveness to the point of threatening murder if they leave. It's a little on-the-nose, far as problems with perceptions of male sexuality go.

Give Libra black hair and the dark mage outfit, though, some high-def pecs, tie up or lose the loincloth thing and the bra, and give him a speedo under the stockings? Bam, male Tharja, physically. That's kinda the easy part.

Tharja's dialogue isn't actually all that seductive or suggestive, though (pretending the game is being judged by universal standards, and not "this is an internationally-distributed Nintendo franchise"), it's just kinda tame "I've loved you since I first saw you" fare. It's not really inviting, it just jumps to being possessive and throws in some red flags of unhealthy, invasive obsession. I think all that could be kinda hard to keep verbatim with Tharja being male, even they made "him" as hot as could be, because our expectations are no longer having the tables turned on them the way they are when a female character with a design obviously meant to be seductive turns out to be a little less physically seductive, as opposed to aggressively manipulative as hell. They're just being battered by the regular old tables.

Whether players/fans already "let Tharja get away with" the things she does that would in a real-life relationship be considered abusive, I would hazard a guess, probably depends on who you ask. I think you could have a male character who's romantically obsessed with the Avatar, has a kinda seductive goth aesthetic to them, and who experiments with curses, and that there'd probably be a shot at making a character from those starting points that could be received okay. Whether that's enough to make them worthy of being called a "male Tharja," and just how manipulative people would be "okay" with them being, I'm less sure.

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I hate the rules of the internet, there are way too many.

I'll fix it.

As for the male sexualization, I simply meant that dudes don't have boobs, and being a straight guy, I suppose I have no idea what would make a woman feel the same as boobs would make the average man feel, I don't know if a chiseled face makes any difference. (Btw I doubt I could call myself the average man after that statement, seeing as Cherche is my waifu just because of her awesome pink/rose hair)

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Looking like Ezio is about as sexy as it gets, no animu will come close to that

I don't have opinions on what would happen if Tharja became a dude, however keep in mind that some awful abusive men in fiction portrayed as protagonists are also very popular, notably a certain sparkly shoddy-excuse-of-a-vampire because he's described as hot or something, I dunno. We don't know what the actual demographic for FE players are, and how much of the intersection between FE player and the fandom of that other thing there is, but while I don't think male!Tharja would be received well here on SF due to the larger male population here (which does not mean there's actually more male fans, a lot of women just don't want to go on a gaming forum and for good reason), it might not be the same everywhere.

Though really it still largely depends on how he would be handled. I don't mind moral ambiguity in my characters as long as it's handled well. Doing bad things is one thing but glorification thereof is another.

Edited by Ezio Auditore da Firenze

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Though really it still largely depends on how he would be handled. I don't mind moral ambiguity in my characters as long as it's handled well. Doing bad things is one thing but glorification thereof is another.

I'm all for bad protagonists, but shit like this is what I don't like. People who say 'YANDERE~~~' like it's okay to be mentally abusive and emotionally/physically damage people in the name of 'love' just because the character in question is physically appealing is so stupid. Worse yet when no one in the work itself questions the character either! Like Karel, Tharja is very vile and careless. They're not heartless, but they have their (severe) low points.

Edited by GabrielKnight

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I don't even mind it in my protagonists because the world isn't in black and white, and even with inherently good causes there's still a chance of not-so-savory people joining it for whatever their reasons are. Moreover, IRL some of the progressive leaders we herald are not 100% great people either. However, the bad things a character does should be addressed by other characters in some way, not just glossed over in favor of "lolboobs"

But it's probably too much to ask from FE's writing team.

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Looking like Ezio is about as sexy as it gets, no animu will come close to that

I don't have opinions on what would happen if Tharja became a dude, however keep in mind that some awful abusive men in fiction portrayed as protagonists are also very popular, notably a certain sparkly shoddy-excuse-of-a-vampire because he's described as hot or something, I dunno. We don't know what the actual demographic for FE players are, and how much of the intersection between FE player and the fandom of that other thing there is, but while I don't think male!Tharja would be received well here on SF due to the larger male population here (which does not mean there's actually more male fans, a lot of women just don't want to go on a gaming forum and for good reason), it might not be the same everywhere.

Though really it still largely depends on how he would be handled. I don't mind moral ambiguity in my characters as long as it's handled well. Doing bad things is one thing but glorification thereof is another.

Pretty much. /Tharja

Lumi hit the nail on the head. Male characters with Tharja's style of characterization are often viewed in a positive light. Or they come off as Byronic Heroes. (Guys like Snape come to mind...) Since i do not hold a double standard, im pretty sure if Tharja was Thorjan, id like him just the same. I like Tharja's current aesthetic anyway. If she was a dude, would they sexualize him? Probably. I wouldnt mind either.

However, im not the entirety of the fandom. Theres a good number of the fandom as a whole who view Tharja as repugnant, but not because of her appearance. I dont see a lot of slut-shaming in her direction as much as whinging at the designers for giving us a sexualized female. The fandom would likely balk harder at Male!Tharja due to the Avatar supports because it would come off as even worse. (Hai double standard) SF is different in that regard seeing how you lot already balk pretty hard at Tharja as it is. Despite her incredibly sexy design, you guys dont like her weird and spooky attitude. If she was a guy, you guys would be making the same arguments. Which is actually not as bad as it sounds. It just means most of you arent adhering to a double standard.

It'll be Henry without the charm.

More or less to be honest. Henry is sorta an idea of what Male!Tharja would be. Only hes not gloomy.

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I hate the rules of the internet, there are way too many.

I'll fix it.

As for the male sexualization, I simply meant that dudes don't have boobs, and being a straight guy, I suppose I have no idea what would make a woman feel the same as boobs would make the average man feel, I don't know if a chiseled face makes any difference. (Btw I doubt I could call myself the average man after that statement, seeing as Cherche is my waifu just because of her awesome pink/rose hair)

I find a lot of the same qualities physically attractive in men that I do in women, but that's probably demonstrative of not much other than "no one person's opinions of what is physically attractive should be taken as indicative of the tastes of anybody other than those of that one person"

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