Fire Emblem 12 Another Lunatic Tier List

[PKL]

Being 'worse than Catria' doesn't seem like a good reason for lowering Cecile, who was already a full tier below Catria anyway. I suppose not being able to go Horseman is a lategame downside compared to the guys though.

On Etzel- a unit that can use Excalibur is highly useful for a number of chapters and a 2nd staff user is also quite welcome. I guess he could also work as a Gharnef killer but he might need a Wing. He's obviously better than the Excalibur competition (Merric and Wendell), but I suppose it really comes down to how decent Merric/Wendell are as alternatives.

Yeah, but I just think I overrated her a bit by putting her into high tier in the first place. She's a decent unit but not on the level of potential horsemen.

Yeah, Etzel is a good unit no doubt. But how good is he? Does he belong with the rest of Top Tier?

[BBM]

I think Marth should either be untiered or drop out of Top. I don't see a reason to count his Medeus-killing as auto-top tier because he saves a lot of turns doing it and he's not technically "mandatory" to kill him. We don't put Edward in Top in FE10 for saving 15 turns or whatever it is in 1-P and I'm unconvinced that Marth should be in Top for killing Medeus. The only difference between Edward and Marth in this situation are that Edward's mandatory usage comes in the first chapter and Marth's is in the last, and Marth is also necessary to seize in a game with no rescuing, both of which mandate training him, and makes him, as PKL says, "part of the LTC core".

Put in another way- if Idoun had an ability that cut everybody's damage against her by 75% except for Roy, would you put Roy in Top?

EDIT: would personally have Marth untiered; not a fan of tiering lords who get trained more due to being necessary to complete the game than due to their own merits; ie pretty much everybody except Sigurd, Ike, and maybe Hector/Celice.

Edited June 16, 2014 by BBM

[-Cynthia-]

Etzel doesn't really need resources to do what he does, so he should stay in Top tier I suppose. The competition for Excalibur (and magic shards I guess) isn't very high.

I could see the argument for Marth dropping to High tier, since under the tier definitions High tier units need resources and Marth definitely does need some to do his job vs Medeus.

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 5, 2020 by Don Draper

[Vorena]

PKL in his 150 turn got Ryan to level 11.xx by castors join chapter. Better growths and thus better stats in the long run in a game where stats sort of do matter, but there is leeway with the rainbow potion. Since you have to bring up the use of a resource to match a character that is better than him by join time means a difference in tiering. Ryan could have easily have used the resource instead and been a better asset over all. Also, Castor does not have a 15% speed growth over Ryan. Its a 5% growth and otherwise Ryan beats Castor in base growths in every area by 10% or 5% otherwise. Except magic, but that stat is useless on a combat units like them.

Anyway, Ryan helps save turns through the whole game up to the point where Castor finally joins and can have lower stats by join time compared to Ryan. Plus, there is the heavy flier chapters after prologue in which Ryan can help or Gordin.

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 5, 2020 by Don Draper

[-Cynthia-]

Darros has good enough bases that he can make an OK Swordmaster. His axe rank is also useful, particularly if reclassed to Hero. He might need a Speedwing, but we don't get many good axe units in this game, so it could be worth it on some runs.

Castor might be more of an Upper Mid unit.

[PKL]

The problem with Castor is that he never gets the durability to be a main Horseman. I have no issue with making him Upper Mid based on his offensive capabilities. Though where exactly would one put him?

"Speaking of which, we are assuming that the Cain/Navarre/Roger/Ogma's of the world are basically just copying Ryan/Luke/Rody/Draug's role, right? What about somebody like Darros? How is he expected to contribute?"

Yeah, but they copy that pretty poorly. Ch8 to Ch11 in general doesn't have a lot of opportunities for training units that need catching up and most of those join at that point. They can't really emulate Luke/Ryan/Rody/Draug's role well at all :/. Darros is actually one of the units with the best bases in the game. He's decent filler if you happen to need one.

Edited June 22, 2014 by PKL

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 5, 2020 by Don Draper

[PKL]

For now, I think Castor above Barst is fair. I might eventually argue him higher if I feel the need, but for now I was just concerned about his actual tier. To be honest, I have no idea how Barst is even used? His bases are ever so slightly better than Castor's (-2 HP, +1 Str, + 1 Spd, + 1 Def), but he has no useful weapon experience to speak of.

I do wish that somebody would record a playthrough using some of the units in Upper Mid in place of the Chapter 1 High Tier units. I genuinely am curious how they pass as Horseman substitutes. Perhaps they can't cut it, and they should all shoot down? I think somebody would have to test it (wish I had the time, or I'd do it myself).

I can do it. I'm taking a break from LTC in general though. But when I return, I'll do a Mid Tiers only playthrough.

Edited June 22, 2014 by PKL

[-Cynthia-]

Barst has enough Speed and Attack to be decent after a Pirate reclass+ Rainbow potion I think. D Axes isn't great, though it's better than what Roger has (Roger is too slow to be in lance using classes for a while).

Edited June 24, 2014 by -Cynthia-

[Dozla of the Steady Axe]

I think that Michalis should move up, even if it's only one space. He honestly is a more useful unit than the character right above him (namely Midia). Look at their stats:

(Reclassing Michalis to Paladin for comparison's sake.)

Michalis Lv 12

44 HP, 18 Str, 1 Mag, 22 Skl, 22 Spd, 2 Lck, 18 Def, 8 Res

Midia Lv 16

39 HP, 17 Str, 1 Mag, 21 Skl, 20 Spd, 10 Lck, 20 Def, 7 Res

So...Right now, Midia has +8 luck and +2 defense, but Michalis has +5 HP, +1 strength, skill, speed and resistance. Midia's loss in speed is going to hurt her especially, because she'll be getting doubled by Sorcerers and Mage Dragons. However, Michalis's growth rates mean things will get better for him soon.

Now let's move to the final chapter. Because of the BEXP dragons give when you kill them, combined with the fact that some/most of your units should be max level by now (and therefore shouldn't be getting kills, since that's wasting EXP), and Michalis's below-average level means he's getting more BEXP, I think it's reasonable for Michalis to gain 3 levels each per chapter, which would put him at Lv 18 (I'm not 100% sure if this is accurate, but I think it works).

Michalis Lv 18

50 HP, 22 Str, 26 Skl, 24 Spd, 3 Lck, 21 Def, 8 Res

Midia Lv 20

42 HP, 18 Str, 1 Mag, 24 Skl, 23 Spd, 11 Lck, 20 Def, 7 Res

Now the gap between Midia and Michalis is even more pronounced, with Michalis having +8 HP, +4 strength, +2 skill, and +1 defense, and resistance. Meanwhile, all Midia has to offer is +8 luck. I should also mention Midia's luck is far from stellar, meaning she's susceptible to critical hits too. Because of this, I strongly recommend moving Michalis above Midia.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Dozla of the Steady Axe

[PKL]

I think that Michalis should move up, even if it's only one space. He honestly is a more useful unit than the character right above him (namely Midia). Look at their stats:

(Reclassing Michalis to Paladin for comparison's sake.)

Michalis Lv 12

44 HP, 18 Str, 1 Mag, 22 Skl, 22 Spd, 2 Lck, 18 Def, 8 Res

Midia Lv 16

39 HP, 17 Str, 1 Mag, 21 Skl, 20 Spd, 10 Lck, 20 Def, 7 Res

So...Right now, Midia has +8 luck and +2 defense, but Michalis has +5 HP, +1 strength, skill, speed and resistance. Midia's loss in speed is going to hurt her especially, because she'll be getting doubled by Sorcerers and Mage Dragons. However, Michalis's growth rates mean things will get better for him soon.

Now let's move to the final chapter. Because of the BEXP dragons give when you kill them, combined with the fact that some/most of your units should be max level by now (and therefore shouldn't be getting kills, since that's wasting EXP), and Michalis's below-average level means he's getting more BEXP, I think it's reasonable for Michalis to gain 3 levels each per chapter, which would put him at Lv 18 (I'm not 100% sure if this is accurate, but I think it works).

Michalis Lv 18

50 HP, 22 Str, 26 Skl, 24 Spd, 3 Lck, 21 Def, 8 Res

Midia Lv 20

42 HP, 18 Str, 1 Mag, 24 Skl, 23 Spd, 11 Lck, 20 Def, 7 Res

Now the gap between Midia and Michalis is even more pronounced, with Michalis having +8 HP, +4 strength, +2 skill, and +1 defense, and resistance. Meanwhile, all Midia has to offer is +8 luck. I should also mention Midia's luck is far from stellar, meaning she's susceptible to critical hits too. Because of this, I strongly recommend moving Michalis above Midia.

Midia has all of Ch20, 20x and 21 over Michalis. Both are extremely bad, but Midia has a shot at doing more due to availability. While she does face critrates, it's not as bad as Michalis. Both are never getting to Level 20 by endgame either, unless you slow down considerably. Of course, not having suficiente bases and not being able to get exp fast is why they're in Bottom Tier.

Anyway, I was thinking of making a tier list for No DLC items, no Lunatic boosters, no mixed class sets Lunatic, but I have trouble seeing who exactly would go down/up. Like, I'm sure Linde and Ryan are worse off in this kind of playstyle, as they actually have trouble getting started without their respective boosters and Ryan no longer has Horseman as an option. But does anyone other than Draug get that much better in a run like that? I'm sure Marth also lowers to like Mid Tier, as suddenly he's that much more prone to RNG screwage without his Growth drop or Rainbow Pot.

Something like:

Top Tier

Avatar

Malicia

Feena

Palla

Catria

Caeda

Xane

Sirius

Etzel

High Tier

Draug

Luke

Rody

Minerva

Upper Mid Tier

Ryan

Linde

Cecille

Arran

Yumina

Ogma

Merric

Navarre

Cain

Julian

Barst

Leiden

Darros

Roger

Wrys

???

didn't think it through, but that's where you all come in. Discuss.

Edited July 2, 2014 by PKL

[Dark Sage]

Cecile would probably drop a lot. Her durability was never good and it was always a bit trickier to get her levels in the prologue than the other Alteans but no RP or statboosters make it a really ridiculous hurdle.

Luke and Sirius are a bit worse off since they don't have Horseman anymore, though they're pretty good as Swordmasters (and Luke might be able to make Paladin work). I can definitely see a tier difference between Luke and Ryan since Ryan has no other bow using classes besides Archer/Sniper and he's really not that good in other classes either.

Rody's probably harder to train since the loss of Pirate and Hunter really do hurt. You might have to work a bit more on his sword rank, his only real doubling class is Myrmidon prepromotion and you might have to get lucky with his speed. I could see him and Draug adjacent; Draug's class selection is inferior post promotion but he's a bit easier to use beforehand (though he can't always go Pirate early on since he's consistently OHKO'd by brigands).

In ranking the Alteans, it would probably be Luke>Draug>Rody>>Ryan>>Cecile, with >> = a tier difference.

Ogma's hit pretty hard by these changes. He can no longer function as Luke lite and he loses Myrmidon as an easier way to double. He also doesn't have the stats for Horseman unfortunately.

Those are the ones that mainly come to mind.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't think Cecille gets that much worse in comparison- your suggestion would have her 2 entire tiers below Rody, who now doesn't have Rainbow Potion, Pirate or Hunter which makes his offense very questionable.

Draug is still kinda slow at base without Rainbow Potion so I'm not sure if he's that much better.

Edited July 2, 2014 by -Cynthia-

[eclipse]

No mixed class sets? I can see no DLC/Lunatic stat boosters, but no mixed class sets seems overly restrictive, IMO.

[Nintales]

I don't understand why is Jake so low, on the tier list.

He is only Lower Mid Tier. I think that is a little weird, considering he has great growths (early Est) and can use Silver Bow without being reclassed to Sniper, unlike Darros. He also has a better opportunity to train himself on the flying dragons.

His BS are mediocre for a promoted unit, but he can catch up and be at the same level of others by sniping dragons.

Well, if there is no mixed class set, doesn't that make MU less useful?

He is normally used as a Fighter for Lunatic, right?

So, if he can't reclass to Dracoknight, his utility decreases.

If you consider him to be a Cavalier, he is a great unit, but that's only as a Cavalier.

Well, regarding Altean Knights, the order should probably be :

Ryan > Luke > Rody = Draug > Cecille.

Ryan has a lot of time to grow, in the prologue, considering Luke and Rody are not quite used, because you don't have any places for them, for Athena and Ogma exist.

Ryan, on the other hand, is, unless you take Gordin (who is not that great), the only archer of the team.

He would need speed, but he can get it while chipping or killing.

Luke beats Rody because of the BS. As for Draug, he doesn't have a lot of durability as a hunter, so, without RP, he's just not that great. Rody has a great speed growth and good growths in the other stats, so, he is on the same level as Draug.

Cecille is just bad. She has no durability, without RP, and, it is almost impossible for her to gain experience in the Prologue, sadly. (and believe me, I tried)

Edited July 9, 2014 by Nintales

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

MU always get a 1 - 2 level advantage over everyone else which, contrary to popular belief is the biggest reason of why MU is the best character in the game.

I think some MU combination might be worse than the others but that would be a mess to tier with

Edited July 9, 2014 by Anti-Fun

[-Cynthia-]

Jake's growths look promising, but I'm not sure his bases are salvageable. He can use Silver Bows but with his low Str (3 absolute base is quite low at this stage of the game) he'll likely need Mt forged on it and 4 base Spd means he's nowhere near doubling.

I admit to never trying to use him personally though.

[Dark Sage]

I remember using him in Maniac on a whim, though I did lack RP and Lunatic boosters to help him out. He was pretty awful, even with all those levels of Sniper, though he did have a bit of utility thanks to his great bow rank.

I imagine Minerva would drop too without the RP and boosters. Her bases and weapon ranka simply don't cut it after awhile.

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 5, 2020 by Don Draper

[PKL]

I'm kind of feeling Gordin is underrated since I really don't seem as overly inferior to Ryan. He also comes with the added bonus of not needing to be force fed kills in the prologue.

Chapter 1:

Ryan Lvl 6: 6 HP, 4.5 Str, 5 Skl, 2.5 Spd, 2.75 Def

Gordin Lvl 5: 5 HP, 4 Str, 5 Skl, 2 Spd, 2 Def

And to be fair to Gordin, Ryan's leads are effectively diminished when both are the same level. Ryan's growths are really the only area where he will eventually sustain any sort of advantage over Gordin...a 10% lead in most growths gives him a +1 stat advantage midgame and a +2 stat advantage endgame.

I see Gordin as an Upper Mid character. To be honest, I think Upper Mid and Mid need a complete rehaul (with the Cains and Rogers of the world being a tier below characters like Gordin and Minerva) but haven't thought it out too thoroughly yet

Well, aside from the obvious Ryan Prologue contributions over Gordin (which are huge), Gordin's stats are below the 50s, which means it's likelier they won't proc. The 10% str and spd in this case is huge, Ryan has a bow rank lead and can get a 2-4 level lead depending on the avatar being used. Gordin's growths are just too low to be a longterm unit. 50% str 35% skl/spd and 25% def as a Hunter is just not going anywhere. Cain and Roger give back more for their training than Gordin ever should. Note that 35% spd is the same as FE10 Micaiah :(. At least 45% spd is fixable with 2 wings.

Edited July 29, 2014 by PKL

[Irysa]

PKL, whilst I actually agree in terms of how 50%s feel SO much better than anything lower, if you're going to argue on purely averages then Gordin really isn't that much worse off compared to Ryan. Ryan's skill is the only stat that he has a really significant lead in. Gordin's just as capable of steel bow blicking stuff in the earlygame as Ryan is, and can still probably hit ideal bow rank naturally. Note I still think he's worse than Ryan, just I can kind of get at the reasoning behind Don's argument.

This is actually why I think average stats are kinda weird for tier lists but I don't usually raise that point. You need something to compare units by but somehow it's always felt really stupid to naturally expect a unit to have the correct amount of stats at a given level when their growth is sub 40 in a key stat. unless your name is caeda. Aren't binomials a better judgement for these kinds of things?

Edited July 29, 2014 by Irysa

[-Cynthia-]

Needing 2 wings might kinda suggest that Ryan is a bit high- in addition to something like a bow forge that's quite a lot of resources expended. Not sure 45% vs 35% speed growth is a huge difference.

[PKL]

Needing 2 wings might kinda suggest that Ryan is a bit high- in addition to something like a bow forge that's quite a lot of resources expended. Not sure 45% vs 35% speed growth is a huge difference.

Almost every unit below top tier needs resources honestly. Even some of Top tier likes their speedwings like Palla. Ryan isn't the only one that likes the bow forge, every potential horseman likes it for xp gain o.o

Edited July 29, 2014 by PKL