Fire Emblem 12 Another Lunatic Tier List

[Redwall]

With three Speedwings and a Speed Bond/RP, 15/14 Ryan has a 74% chance of reaching 27 AS ('=BINOMDIST(16, 27, 0.55, 1)') to double the C17 Warriors if we assume all level-ups take place as a Hunter/Horseman, whereas a Gordin with 24 Hunter/Horseman level-ups (three fewer than a 15/14 Ryan) has only a 47% chance of reaching 27 AS if given the same treatment (neither gets the Starsphere in C17, so that's neglected). If accounting for Archer/Sniper/Swordmaster growths, or giving each one fewer Speedwing, Ryan's odds of reaching the AS benchmark are still better than Gordin's. The levels Ryan gains in the Prologue allow him to roughly match Gordin's AS by the latter's join time, and the edge in growth rate puts him well ahead by the lategame.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Miikaya

[-Cynthia-]

Almost every unit below top tier needs resources honestly. Even some of Top tier likes their speedwings like Palla. Ryan isn't the only one that likes the bow forge, every potential horseman likes it for xp gain o.o

Yeah but I don't think Draug needs 2 Speedwings or other resource equivalent to do his job- not sure Rody needs as much either.

[Irysa]

RIP PKL and this tier list apparently.

With three Speedwings and a Speed Bond/RP, 15/14 Ryan has a 74% chance of reaching 27 AS ('=BINOMDIST(16, 27, 0.55, 1)') to double the C17 Warriors if we assume all level-ups take place as a Hunter/Horseman, whereas a Gordin with 24 Hunter/Horseman level-ups (three fewer than a 15/14 Ryan) has only a 47% chance of reaching 27 AS if given the same treatment (neither gets the Starsphere in C17, so that's neglected). If accounting for Archer/Sniper/Swordmaster growths, or giving each one fewer Speedwing, Ryan's odds of reaching the AS benchmark are still better than Gordin's. The levels Ryan gains in the Prologue allow him to roughly match Gordin's AS by the latter's join time, and the edge in growth rate puts him well ahead by the lategame.

Thanks! Calculations like just feel so much more sensible than going by averages.

Also, do horsemen ONLY care about their bow rank lategame? Isn't a decent sword rank pretty useful too, or is that just negligble? If so, surely that's a pretty big negative to any potential horsemen who aren't Luke, Ryan, or possibly Ogma since you can't buff their sword rank AND bow rank as much each.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Irysa

[Redwall]

Yeah but I don't think Draug needs 2 Speedwings or other resource equivalent to do his job- not sure Rody needs as much either.

They each need a lot of Arms Scrolls (bow rank) though, possibly more than Luke depending on team composition. Draug also needs a Seraph Robe.

Also, do horsemen ONLY care about their bow rank lategame? Isn't a decent sword rank pretty useful too, or is that just negligble? If so, surely that's a pretty big negative to any potential horsemen who aren't Luke, Ryan, or possibly Ogma since you can't buff their sword rank AND bow rank as much each.

I'm not actually sure if the fastest reliable clear requires a Wyrmslayer-wielding Horseman (I'm inclined to think it does), but it's definitely really handy.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Miikaya

[Irysa]

Robes are somewhat less desired across the cast than speedwings I thought. With a robe I'm pretty sure Draug can scrape a level somehow in chapter 1 and the start of chapter 2 to get to 12 speed as a hunter, then with RP he can double a low rolling 10 speed dracoknight in chapter 2, which is a ORKO with just Irons and base str + RP. That is some very immediate cost saving, although obviously I don't really know how that plays out in the long run. Anyway I think the robe arguably has the same positive feedback loop it has on Linde, the level he'll get in c2 resulting in speed again means he can ORKO all the c3 Dracos with Iron + RP too so you still don't need a bow forge and so on and so forth. Since it's CR that's a lot of EXP and chance to build bow rank.

What level is Luke coming out of Prologue normally? I think he needs 4 over his base to be able to do the same thing, that seems unrealistic without a speedwing.

I apologise if my understanding of the game is limited, feel free to call me out on anything. I do have an interest in learning more though.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Irysa

[RJWalker]

Qustion about Ymir. I know he sucks but the Bottom Tier description says it's for units that affect turn counts negatively or divert resources. You get Ymir for free at the start of the chapter. How does that affect turn counts negatively?

[General Horace]

the same also applies to dudes like abel/macellan/dolph/robert, I think it just means they're worse than the tier above them, which is pretty godawful

also calling it now, PKL will be back

Edited July 30, 2014 by General Horace

[SB.]

He should've at least changed his name to PKLeft instead.

[Don Draper]

.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Don Draper

[Redwall]

Robes are somewhat less desired across the cast than speedwings I thought. With a robe I'm pretty sure Draug can scrape a level somehow in chapter 1 and the start of chapter 2 to get to 12 speed as a hunter, then with RP he can double a low rolling 10 speed dracoknight in chapter 2, which is a ORKO with just Irons and base str + RP. That is some very immediate cost saving, although obviously I don't really know how that plays out in the long run. Anyway I think the robe arguably has the same positive feedback loop it has on Linde, the level he'll get in c2 resulting in speed again means he can ORKO all the c3 Dracos with Iron + RP too so you still don't need a bow forge and so on and so forth. Since it's CR that's a lot of EXP and chance to build bow rank.

What level is Luke coming out of Prologue normally? I think he needs 4 over his base to be able to do the same thing, that seems unrealistic without a speedwing.

I don't disagree that Speedwings are more valuable than Robes or Arms Scrolls, but since the four growth units currently populating the middle of High Tier each ask for a fair amount of boosters, I wouldn't say that Ryan is noticeably worse than the other three, as -Cynthia- has argued. In the post-Prologue chapters, I like Draug a bit more than Ryan for the former's ridiculous Spd enabling things like what you mention.

Fair point about Luke's Spd, but since PKL has shown you can eschew the bow forge without loss of turns, it's not much of a stretch to feed one of the Alteans an early booster.

[Irysa]

Once I finish my playthrough I'll try doing some testing and see if I can get the same TC's/Improved TC's in Prologue whilst completely ignoring EXP feeding a 7th Platooner. Since Draug doesn't need to be fed anything in the Prologue, if you can get a notably better MU/Caeda/Marth at Luke/Ryan/Rody's loss that might mean Draug can move up in his tier. Draug might actually be able to get that level without the Robe at all in C1/2, so that can add some flexability on your early wallet.

Also, perhaps we need to compare exactly what everyone needs and how it weighs out?

Draug needs a Robe and 1 or 2 Scrolls to work w/o swords (that is, 1 or 2 scrolls before the last secret shop, after that he can make use of more. Given he won't be working on Sword Rank at all, 60 Bow WEXP might be possible by 10x/11, he might only ever need 1 scroll on Bow Rank if scrolled as a B Sniper, unless you want early Parthia as Horseman). Sword access is unrealistic for most of the game. Needs nothing in prologue.

Ryan needs 2 Wings and 1 or 2 Scrolls if you want him to have sword access (I have no clue if Ryan really has room to build significant sword rank in LTC, so this is more than likely actually 2). Prologue exp.

Luke needs 1 wing(?) and 1 or 2 scrolls. (I think C Swords C Bows as Horseman is doable for Luke w/o boosters so he probably only needs 1 midgame, but can use more later on like Draug. Even if he hits C/C he could use the second for early Parthia.) Prologue exp. Probably the only one who can get General Kills in C8.

Rody needs 1 or 2 scrolls to work w/o swords (same as Draug), and probably needs the bow forge since his bases are a lot worse than Draug's, but IIRC doesn't need any regular statboosters. (Bow forge can get used by everyone though, which somewhat offsets the cost.) Sword access is unrealistic for most of the game. Prologue exp.

I'm also wondering how no RP affects stuff but I guess thats a different discussion.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Irysa

[-Cynthia-]

Ryan isn't that bad in comparison, but over Draug seems like a tough sell given their resource costs.

[PKL]

Why wouldn't one train the Prologue units though? They arrive in the beginning and can be trained alongside the Avatar and Caeda just fine. It's a good idea to utilize at least one of them. It's better to have a good Avatar, a good Caeda and a good Prologue unit instead of just a great Avatar and an overleveled Caeda.

Luke is a great unit that meets spd benchmarks with 1 wing and RP pretty reliably and only needs 1 or 2 Arms Scrolls. He likes Wyrmslayer and can get access to it easily, which actually helps with Horsemen training during the dragon chapters a lot. While his contributions in the Prologue are bad (its mostly just feeding him exp), his maingame is good enough to be high tier. Aside from those resources, he also likes Drill Grounds here and there, like almost every unit. Depending on the strat for some of the lategame chapters and the team composition, he might like one of the later Dracoshields or Robes obtained too. It might seem like a lot of investment for one unit, but the payoff is big, considering the Horseman class is that good in lategame.

Resources: 1 Speedwing, 2 Arms Scroll (its likely he won't get C swords on his own in LTC as he spends the vast majority of chapters in Hunter mode), Drill Grounds, plenty of use of the Rainbow Potion

Ryan is a unit that has iffier spd growth than Luke, hence his position, but is very valuable in the Prologue and earlygame in general. He is generally a bit easier to feed exp to in the Prologue than Luke due to the nature of his damage and because he can be deployed in every Prologue chapter, including Prologue 8 to shave turns. Ryan's Prologue 7 Est 3 turn is iffy for sure, needing 6 Spd for the strat. While his average is sufficient, I recall Miikaya telling me it was a 60% chance to get 6 spd by that chapter. Luke can be deployed in Prologue 8 too, but he has to be blessed in Str (iirc, he needs all of his levels to have str) in order to team up for Thief kills. Unlike Luke, though, Ryan needs more to meet spd benchmarks, like Miikaya said, 3 wings and an RP and he's still only got 74% chance of metting the 27 AS requirement to double Warriors in Ch17. Aside from the wings and RP, much like Luke, he likes having Arms Scrolls, this time for his sword rank (reclass to swordmaster when giving them for better results), as it allows him to get a loooot more exp in the dragon chapters and eventually gain access to Master Sword/Brave Sword, the latter being extremely useful. Like Luke, he also likes Drill Grounds here and there to get a few more levels to help with benchmarks. Since rarely do you want 2 Prologue units longterm, whenever he's being used, he can get 2 wings and it won't be a huge loss. Palla is good enough that she can wait until the C9 wing and be fine. Sirius is the unit he would be competing for a wing, but usually he's fine with the Ch11 one, since he won't be doubled by Wyverns if he's leveled sufficiently anyway and he won't double them with it. Ryan's a unit that can be used from start to finish with success with these resources, so while he's not ideal unlike Luke, he's still better than the units below High Tier, considering all he can do with them. I wonder if giving him 2 wings right off the bat would be the best way to use him? It would save one from needing the bow forge completely, without needing the spd proc slightly above average during ch2 to double Dracoknights. In fact, if he hits 15 spd with it, he could double them all. Like all Horsemen, he might also like Robe + Dracoshield in the lategame depending on team composition.

Resources: 1 to 2 early Speedwings, another Speedwing or 2 later (as long as it's 3 total), 2 Arms Scrolls (sword rank), Drill Grounds, extensive use of Rainbow Potion

Draug has the best shot at getting amazing spd, not needing any Speedwings at all to meet spd benchmarks later on. Has no Prologue, which some people argue makes him better, as it means he doesn't need experience from it to perform well. His offensive bases are extremely nice but his defensive bases are extremely bad as a sort of tradeoff. If he can get a level before facing the C2 Dracoknights and he levels spd at 75% chance, he can double 10 spd Dracoknights after a Rainbow Potion use, which is neat. Due to his defensive issues, he likes a Seraph Robe whenever he needs to take a hit and he has trouble getting good HP+def for main Horseman jobs in midgame and lategame without it. Needs Arms Scrolls for his Bow rank in LTC and would definetely appreciate some more Arms Scroll bought at the Armory in order to boost his Sword rank for better xp gain during the midgame. Might actually appreciate an Energy Drop for Warrior killing and Hardin, those are the only Horsemen Str benchmark I can recall, but there might be more.

Resources: early Seraph Robe, Energy Drop for C17 to 20, 3-4 Arms Scrolls, Drill Grounds, use of Rainbow Potion

Rody, like Draug, has an amazing spd growth. Has a shakier start than the rest of the 4 Horsemen. His Prologue is much like Luke. Has no problem meeting spd benchmarks and his growths are all very nice. I don't have much else to say that I didn't cover already. In theory, he should be fine all around eventually when it comes to benchmarks in exchange for his annoying start. Dodgiest of the 4 Horseman, which might be a disadvantage here and there if you want him to be targetted.

Resources: 4 Arms Scrolls, Drill Grounds, use of Rainbow Potion

I've also been thinking about Ogma, he looks decent. Shaky str base that might not matter until C17-20, a good Prologue, plenty of time to be trained and 10% more spd growth than Ryan. He already has C swords so he can concentrate on his bow rank (definetely needs Arms Scrolls for it). Of course, he doesn't have the same snowballing potential as the earlygame Horsemen, but he still seems a like a very viable unit.

IMO it goes: Luke>Draug>Ryan>Rody>Ogma, but I change my mind on the horsemen constantly >_<

Edited August 1, 2014 by PKgone

[Irysa]

For clarity's sake I suppose I should say I've only watched videos/strats for chapters I've actually already completed in my own run, which is now at ch13x (I'm updating later today). Obviously that means I'm easily the least informed person here, and know nothing about lategame, so if I say anything wrong, please correct me.

IIRC commonguard got Luke to C Bows C Swords as Horseman by 10x in his CR run w/o scrolls (or at least, one or two shots short). I confess to not knowing exactly where he could have cut more turns but since the list assumes CR/No deaths that gives it some more leeway than your IR run. The goal is 90 total wexp, so Luke would have to get into 47 battles (2wexp per fight but to get 45 you need 23), but since he has prologue and potentially drills I think that's actually doable in 100ish turns before 10x (which is when I assume you want a Horseman with Silver or Killers to Snipe the boss Roro on turn 1, although I guess someone as a Swordmaster works fine too).

Conversely, if Luke needs 90 total and can meet that, Draug getting 60 bow wexp (30 shots) should be possible. 45 is enough for C Bows as Horseman, but 60 is B bows as a sniper, so scrolling on that gives him 120 internal, which on top of horseman base 30 is 150. That leaves him sitting between B and A but I dunno if that's relevant or if you inevitably need another scroll for Parthia since there isn't enough time in the lategame to get to A naturally. Anyway, since he obv can't bow in the prologue, that leaves about 60 to 70 turns before 10x/Dragon Chapters. I'm still wondering on how important Wyrmslayer access actually is, or rather if Draug or Rody can get by in LTC without it, although if Miikya says he's inclined to think otherwise, then it probably is mandatory. Which means you do need at least 3 scrolls. I guess that kind of evens it out.

Can Rody actually get by without the Bow Forge? Ryan appears to be able to with wings, as does Luke, and Draug doesn't really seem to need it either.

Why wouldn't one train the Prologue units though? They arrive in the beginning and can be trained alongside the Avatar and Caeda just fine. It's a good idea to utilize at least one of them. It's better to have a good Avatar, a good Caeda and a good Prologue unit instead of just a great Avatar and an overleveled Caeda.

It isn't a case of not training so much as not having to be fed kills over other units. If Draug can do everything you basically want Ryan/Luke/Rody to do off the bat, then getting extra EXP into MU or Caeda, or indiscriminately letting Athena/Cain/Est/Ogma get kills for a faster clear surely adds to reliability in stats and stuff elsewhere. That being said I dunno what the minimum TC is for Prologue aside from it being around about 30, and I'm not sure whether or not neglecting the 7th platoon actually saves any turns anywhere, but I feel confident in saying that even one extra level in MU can add more reliability.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Irysa

[Gradivus.]

Ignore this

Edited August 2, 2016 by Gradivus.

[LeaderR Elliot]

Pretty sure everyone lost interest in this...

And lolmichalis cannot distract meteors with 2 luck... he is facing 13% crit since dem sorcs have capped skill. And by the time you get michalis is the easiest part of game... endgame, I mean if you got there you are likely looking with a big smile on your face at all the necesary charges of again and rescue needed to trivialize last 3 maps.

And isn't bottom tier just the old free silvers renamed? As in no one ever bothered to tier them appropiately. We could throw gold into any of them for shits and giggles and use some of them like Samson or Astram without problem. At least you could use most of them for more than 2 maps haha.

Also glower can only be forged up to 20 MT and wi-fi is dead.