Fire Emblem 12 Another Lunatic Tier List

[PKL]

How many turns would it take to beat Medeus (and tank out his Dragon friends) if Marth weren't allowed to attack in Final? My guess is a lot, so I think Marth in the top tier is justified.

I agree with Palla > Catria if only because Palla is way better in Avatar-less runs.

Feena vs. Caeda is a tough one...I'd have to think about it.

I think Mallesia should be above the Avatar; Fortify and Physic are just too good. Yumina's not *that* great a replacement IMO since her Mag growth is so low, though I've never used her as a long-term unit.

Terrible for his high-ish level (six), then (but still good enough to be in the high tier), though part of my reason for saying that was that I believed the seven-turn clear for P8 required Ogma and Est. I'm not familiar with a seven-turn involving Draug; is it detailed in the forums?

A lot of turns Im guessing. It might even be impossible for a normal team to complete the map. I reckon the only way to clear Medeus fast without Marth is a forged thoron crit + someone else to pick him off. Could take like 4 turns or something. But it's just theory emblem.

Even in Avatar runs, I don't believe Catria's lategame advantage is enough to put her above Palla's amazing early prowess tbh. Up to the desert shes clearly beating Catria and being our best combat unit (aside from Avatar). Her lck problem in Ch13 and Ch14 can be fixed with Lck shard + Rainbow Pot. Though lategame zerkers might still pose a problem.

Yeah, it's tough choosing between them. Without Caeda we wouldnt have very reliable bosskills of Ch6, 15 and 19. And she's a serviceable unit in the Dragon Chapters because her str problem is almost irrelevant if she has C Lances and a Dragonslaying weapon. Her prologue contributions are also awesome. Feena on other hand, saves a turn in every map shes in. It's a tough call.

I thought about it before posting the list. Malicia saves a ridiculous amount of turns just by being able to repair our Rescue and she can again, rescue, physic and do all sorts of stuff. With enough resources she can even nosferatank C15 >_>. The Avatar is the most solid combat unit but might not save as many turns as her. I'll think some more on it.

Is this for LTC or no? The tiering criteria makes me think it is (and if it is, might want to put that in the thread title).

Kinda. Reliable LTC though. I'm mostly tiering the units by how many turns they save, how good they are at what they do and stuff like that.

The standard team (and most teams that went through the rest of the game with any semblance of efficiency) without Marth probably can't even beat Medeus. >_>

Re: Airforce vs. Feena. This seems particularly hard to resolve cleanly since Dancers are so special and so many strategies are optimized around them. I'd usually side with the Dancer but Again and such do exist in this game.

Re: Mallesia vs. MU: I'd be curious to see a more detailed analysis. I have thought that MU has traditionally been overrated (statistically not so different from a few others besides a small initial level lead) but the details are more obscure.

I agree. Most efficiency teams won't be able to beat endgame without Marth.

Yeah, its a tough call. Though I give the edge to the airforce for now on the logic that they're invaluable just like Feena but they also do a lot of the combat in this game unlike her. They save turns and are extremely powerful at what they do.

Looks like a good list overall, though I think Belf/Leiden (particularly Leiden) might be a tier too low. They're adequate SMs at base with a RP, can also use Dragonpikes or use an Arms Scroll and be ok Snipers. They have less availability than say Navarre/Cain, but you also don't need to level them during the midgame chapters.

How does one use Roger? He seems too slow in Cavalier, but doesn't have weapon ranks in anything else...

Yeah, I probably overdid it. I always thought Belf/Leiden were a bit overrated in the other tier list, but I placed them too low now. I also think Leiden>Belf because:

http://gyazo.com/e4554826bd4a411717b042e89d474553

http://gyazo.com/5f2addb55e4ed524201ecea120425787

15/1 Belf needs a Wing and a Rainbow Pot to guarantee doubling Ice Dragons. IIRC they have 18 AS in Lunatic, 17 in Maniac. And he also needs more resources in the form of Lck boosting shards, Godess Icon and a rainbow Pot use so that he doesnt hurt reliability. Those Ice Dragons in his join chapter have a lot of crit.

15/1 Leiden on the other hand can double Ice Dragons without Rainbow Pot. So he saves us a Wing. His str is worrisome but as long as he's using Wyrmslayer, he should be OK vs them. He also needs 2 lck boosting stuff (Libra and Pot only) iirc to escape crits completely unlike Belf.

I've always seen Roger as usable. Though he's a pain to train in the chapters to come. If you can get him to Dracoknight in time, he can use Dragonpike as a Dracoknight. His spd would be good if he joined earlier, but since he joins so close to the craziness of Anri's Way, he might stand to drop. I wonder if Frey and Barst are really better than him though. It seems to me that Frey has more spd issues than Roger but joins a bit earlier. Even though he can't really get much exp in the chapters he has over Roger. Barst is just weird, he doesnt have spd issues as a Pirate, but he's also not really as solid as I'd want him to be. Though now that I think more on it, Im starting to think Barst>Frey and Roger. Simply because his axe rank issues arent as bad Frey and Roger's spd and exp issues.

Arms Scroll him into Hunter and promote later into Dracoknight?

Could be one way to do it, yeah. If he can get to Level 10 before Anri's way and have 15 spd as a DK, he can take a Rainbow Pot so that he isn't doubled and can use the Dragonpike during those chapters to kill stuff/get exp and contribute. He probably needs to Drill Ground for Level 10 though tbh. Frey starts at the same level some chapters back, but his 10/1 Dracoknight spd is 12.3 that's not even in fixable territory for Anri's way. Roger on the other hand can hit the 17 spd sweetspot and not be doubled by anyone on the map. He seems more usable than Frey so I'm moving Frey down/Roger up. Frey would probably be better off as a Sniper or a Swordmaster than as a Dracoknight. Despite his weapon rank :/

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

EDIT: derp accident

Edited September 15, 2013 by JSND

[eclipse]

I should not say this but.... why is Sirius so high and why is he above the Altean Trio?

Also WRT Merric, Ellearan with Scrolls has access to Excalibur, but Im not sure if this is enough to push him up

Whoops, forgot this.

Whether Ellerean gets that Arms Scroll is dependent on whether or not ANYONE ELSE wants it first. Do you need a non-bow-thing to get to Steel in a hurry? Bye-bye Scroll! If Ellerean's utility is tied to an item, I think he's fine where he is.

Dolph/Macellan/Ymir are in a weird spot. On one hand, they're near-unusable. On the other, they auto-join, so they technically don't waste turns. Perhaps the tier definitions need a bit of clarity in regards to this?

Lastly, can someone explain when I'd ever bother with Rickard?

[-Cynthia-]

An issue I see with Barst is Pirate not being a very available class- there's only one slot for it before Darros joins and MU/Rody/Draug/etc. may want to use it. He's rather dependent on the Pirate base Spd for his performance.

[Redwall]

I am 99% sure that KoT's 165-turn run involved only one Marth crit on Medeus (seeing as how he used no Rescue or Again uses and cleared Final in two turns). For this reason, I think it should be possible to slowly wear down Medeus with things like Mercurius crits (btw, all magic users get doubled, so they'll have to get in the last hit if they're being used).

[commonguard]

Linde, Luke, Ryan

Ryan above Luke. I seriously think with the RP, and Ryan having access to like 3 Speedwings, he is better than Luke. He outperforms Luke during prologue and it's possible to get MU to lvl 9, Ryan to 7 and Caeda to 8 during prologue. A 7-turn of P-8 isn't impossible with Luke, but it likely needs Merc!MU or (multiple) dodges from Athena and Ogma vs. hand axes. Both Luke and Ryan will need a ton of Speedwings to meet benchmarks for strategies as a Horseman so they should definitely still be in High.

Linde also above Luke. Bias. Favourtism. Etc. If you give her all (5) Spirit Dusts she can ORKO 26 SPD Berserkers in C21 at 1-2 range as a Swordmaster. How many units can even 1RKO Berserkers anyways, let alone kill them on an EP at 1-2 range? She is like the only offensive magic user other than Etzel who is actually capable of combat. I would try to argue Linde > Ryan, but seeing as you've made numerous posts arguing the contrary, I would bother with it now. I've mentioned a bunch of other stuff in the H4 efficiency thread and the Linde vs Ryan thread as to what she could potentially contribute. Linde, Luke and Ryan pretty much in the same boat as far as the number of resources needed to perform their respective duties.

Athena vs. Other Prologue Peeps

Athena is at the bottom of Mid, while Ogma (at the top of Upper mid), Wrys, Merric, Cain (didn't even contribute to prologue because Est is better for P-8) are all in Upper mid. Like I see how Ogma and Merric could be used during the game, but how do you justify Wrys and Cain? And even worse, why is Gordin above Athena? Pretty sure Athena is fieled in P-5 up to P-8. What’s Gordin doing that makes up for that?

Sirius

Sirius is a promoted unit with A Rank Lances, can OHKO some things given levels and an RP, has instant Mercurius as a Swordmaster, and has access to Brave Sword and Master Sword as a Paladin or Horseman. Luke doesn’t have access to these weapons if he’s busting his ass building Bow Rank. Given adequate usage and enough levels (which we are assuming), an Angelic Robe, a Speedwing, a wyrmslayer, reclassing to Hero and a RP usage he is 1RKOing dragons in C12-C14. 2 stat-boosters, a weapon, a RP usage and he’s killing dragons. No babying required. He does all this without really requiring many resources and yet Luke, who is contributing significantly less than him early on and requires multiple Speedwings and Armscrolls to contribute effectively as a Horseman, is above him. For fuck’s sake he can even be a decent Horseman (Luke’s goal in life) with enough boss kills, dragon kills and an assortment of stat-boosters (approximately the same number as Luke but different types). Honestly this man (Sirius) deserves to be in the same tier as Catria. He isn't better than her but he's in the same goddamn tier. Sirius does need resources to become exceptional, but he's contributing enough without anything more than an Angelic Robe, Speedwing a RP usage and whatever time it takes you to RECLASS him. Don’t view feeding him boss kills as babying, he’s capable enough to get to the boss in a timely manner (usually will be among the first to get there) and does a good enough chunk of damage to warrant giving him the kill. As for the dragon kills, since he’s ORKOing them he deserves them.

Xane

Xane above Etzel. Xane is the MASTER of all trades. Etzel is a secondary staff bot with an ability to OHKO air units. I think I've run into issues with Etzel not being able to OHKO air units in some of the later chapters actually.

Arran and some units from High

Arran is your first promoted unit and incredibly useful in the first half a dozen chapters. Why are all of Minerva, Cecille, Rody and Draug above him? I see some justification for Minerva but the other 3? Draug, Rody, Cecille are the worst of this group and they should be at the bottom of High. Minerva should be above those 3 but below Linde, Luke and Ryan. Arran should be bottom of Top. He does a good enough job babysitting units up to C7 (can combo with an unpromoted flier for easy theif kills) that he deserves to be at the bottom of Top at least. He’s not long term but 7 maps of babying units so they can be useful later on is a pretty big contribution and certainly more than what Etzel is doing for you. IIRC he saves turns in C11, and then for the most part becomes a second rate staff bot. Even Xane for instance, how many maps is he being fielded for? C14 (join chapter), C15, C18, C19, C20, C21, C22, C23? Xane has like 1 map on Arran. Big whoop. Arran is just awkward in High anyways since no amount of stat-boosters can fix him for mid and late game. And he is certainly deserving of a position above Upper Mid.

Yumina

If Arran is not in Top, what the hell is Yumina doing there? Arran's contributions to the first few chapters (arguably the most annoying) are far more than Yumina's 'Oh, look I'm a second rate Physic user' bullshit. Let's be realistic, no one is fielding Yumina and having her waste use Physic charges long enough for her to reach B staves on her own or level 10 for a promotion so she can move up to being a back-up Again or Recover staff user. She isn't core to any chapter except C4 (her join chapter). She's completely obsoleted by Katarina (C16x, yeah it's a long way to go but still). She's effectively replaced by Etzel (who reaches C staves by C12 easily if you field him in C10 and have him Mend people in C11). In fact Etzel can easily reach B staves as a Bishop (could probably also do it as a Sage) by C21 so you have a second Again staff user. I realize you don't want to tier people based on if other people do their job better than them (which I personally find strange), but she has no qualities that warrant her being in Top and other people are doing her job better (albiet at a later date). I would say Upper Mid or Mid is better for her. C staves with abysmal MAG does not heal much with Physic.

Palla vs. Catria

Palla definitely above Catria. Palla with a Speedwing and RP can be expected to double everything she actually needs to double (up to 18 SPD dragons). Past that, she just needs to be able to contribute to the team, and she can easily be relegated to a Sniper position. Catria with an Energy Drop and an RP is not outperforming Palla. Palla's early access to early silver > Catria's ability to cap SPD (very early) as a Falcoknight. Palla is also a much better babysitter than Catria during the earlier chapters. In fact, Catria needs to be babied for the first few chapters after you get her so she can be useful, and even then she still needs strength procs to be independent before her promotion.

I think Caeda > Catria in spite of Caeda needing more stat-boosters than Catria because of Wing spear utility. That being said I think Palla > Caeda > Catria> Sirius.

I EDITED THIS SPOILER

Placement of Marth

Silly argument but whatever.

Marth to top of Top Tier. Pretty sure there are a myriad of unit compositions than can pave the way to a throne or gate, but Marth is essential to actually seize the throne or gate. Can anyone else seize? What do your turn counts look like without Marth not seizing? Oh, what’s that? You didn’t complete C1 you say? He is as core to achieving low turn counts as it gets. No one is more essential . Marth is king (well prince but close enough… actually if he’s prince who is king? Isn’t he just straight-up the king? Seriously, who is king of Altea?). Either way top of Top please.

EDIT: Maturity Drop Marth with a Speedwing and RP could likely start doubling and ORKOing dragons with a light wyrmslayer forge in C14. If you forge an armourslayer (up to 4000 gold) he could also ORKO the General in C16, allowing a high MOV combat unit to kill the Fortify staff Bishop, then be danced by Feena to seize. You have to rescue whoever is going to kill the Geosphere theif so they can reach him but he can get you another Fortify staff. Maturity Drop Marth is no joke.

Feena vs. Royal Airforce (also Malicia and Avatar/MU)

Pretty sure efficient play and LTC give Feena permanent fielding since join time. Does any member of the Royal Airforce get this? Another note; how many resources you give to Feena? Zero?

Feena should be directly under Marth. I cannot stress this enough, there is not a single chapter I would not field her in.

Then I'm not sure if Malicia or Avatar/MU should take the 3rd spot. Hammerne, best staff bot and Fortify-spam vs. being a boss and recipient of the 'Best Combat Unit' award. Tough call. Good luck with that one.

Stuff that is below this line I don’t really care about but may be relevant to you or someone else?

Upper Low Tier

Units that require resources to perform a given task and may not affect turn counts negatively if given said resources.

Low tier

Units that negatively affect turn counts due to factors like extended babying, denial of resources to important members, etc.

This is where Est resides? She requires exp, by way of being babied... probably at the cost of turn counts. I think she should be one tier lower.

Nagi can probably stand to be higher. (Almost) OHKOing dragons and all. Definitely leagues above Tiki. I feel like the Endgame Bishops are misplaced but I am unsure of where they actually belong. On the one hand, 2 A Rank staff users and a B rank to boot. On the other hand, recruiting them is a bitch.

Edited September 16, 2013 by commonguard

[XeKr]

Dolph/Macellan/Ymir are in a weird spot. On one hand, they're near-unusable. On the other, they auto-join, so they technically don't waste turns. Perhaps the tier definitions need a bit of clarity in regards to this?

Lastly, can someone explain when I'd ever bother with Rickard?

Reclassing and all the stat-boosters available do mean anyone is "technically" usable in fringe contexts. I suppose one could argue them above the ones who do strictly cost turns to recruit but it's not a big difference. Dunno really.

And I think one of the ideas behind this list is that it doesn't matter if a unit is strictly outclassed. All that matters is what they could potentially accomplish if given the opportunity. And Rickard opening doors/chests is always useful I suppose (I need to review when specifically a Thief is actually needed over keys though).

I am 99% sure that KoT's 165-turn run involved only one Marth crit on Medeus (seeing as how he used no Rescue or Again uses and cleared Final in two turns). For this reason, I think it should be possible to slowly wear down Medeus with things like Mercurius crits (btw, all magic users get doubled, so they'll have to get in the last hit if they're being used).

Medeus has 99/42 hp/def. >_>

24 Str of SM/Horseman + 3 weapon rank + 18 Mercurius = 45...

30 Str Berserker + 20 Haute = 50...

iirc you can't sac the Manaketes into him in this game, so Marth is really the only efficient way (1 Marth crit is already >60 damage). Though it does look like saccing some forged Thoron users might work...

Anyways, it does look doable but may need rigging multiple crits/dodges across multiple turns, plus probably costs a bunch of money and/or (much) more exp investment into a Sage, which obviously just obliterates turncount/reliability everywhere. Could put Marth into "lolMedeus" tier or just leave him where he is already in place in top. Doesn't really matter to me.

But basically even if ignoring absolute “forced” actions like seize, Marth is probably still one of or is the most essential character to efficient clears.

Moar later mebe.

Edited September 16, 2013 by XeKr

[commonguard]

And Rickard opening doors/chests is always useful I suppose (I need to review when specifically a Thief is actually needed over keys though).

There are none except C6 and you only need one. I don't think you ever need 2 thieves. Between Thief staff, Master Keys, Door Keys, and Marth with the Fire Emblem, you never really need a thief past C6. The Swordslayer in C14 is nice but it isn't necessary and is usually a consolation prize if you don't have the team composition for a 5 turn clear. Recruiting Rickard is kind of annoying in C5 and even if you do manage it, he can't tank the Swarm Bishop in C6 on his way to the 10K bullion. He's like the worst unit.

Could put Marth into "lolMedeus" tier or just leave him in place in top. Doesn't really matter to me.

Matters to me. Marth to top of Top. Can't even get past C1 without him.

But basically even if ignoring absolute “forced” actions like seize, Marth is probably still one of or is the most essential character to efficient clears.

If we are going by Marth's combat prowess he should find a nice home in High. Definitely not Top, needs way too many stat-boosters on top of the one and only boots.

[XeKr]

There are none except C6 and you only need one. I don't think you ever need 2 thieves. Between Thief staff, Master Keys, Door Keys, and Marth with the Fire Emblem, you never really need a thief past C6. The Swordslayer in C14 is nice but it isn't necessary and is usually a consolation prize if you don't have the team composition for a 5 turn clear. Recruiting Rickard is kind of annoying in C5 and even if you do manage it, he can't tank the Swarm Bishop in C6 on his way to the 10K bullion. He's like the worst unit.

I don't disagree, but why is Julian so high then? Combat?

Matters to me. Marth to top of Top. Can't even get past C1 without him.

If we are going by Marth's combat prowess he should find a nice home in High. Definitely not Top, needs way too many stat-boosters on top of the one and only boots.

Are you really proposing tiering based on forced actions?

Do you agree with the following? Lyn for top of top tier for seizing prologue? Micaiah for top of top tier for seizing 1-E? Can't get past the FE12 prologue without MU too.

This is a extremely old argument you're making and I think you'll find no one really agrees with that view (with good reason).

The difference with the Medeus thing is that it is possible to kill him without Marth, just not efficiently.

Edited September 16, 2013 by XeKr

[Redwall]

Ryan above Luke. I seriously think with the RP, and Ryan having access to like 3 Speedwings, he is better than Luke. He outperforms Luke during prologue and it's possible to get MU to lvl 9, Ryan to 7 and Caeda to 8 during prologue. A 7-turn of P-8 isn't impossible with Luke, but it likely needs Merc!MU or (multiple) dodges from Athena and Ogma vs. hand axes. Both Luke and Ryan will need a ton of Speedwings to meet benchmarks for strategies as a Horseman so they should definitely still be in High.

I remember finding that Ryan needs two Speedwings and the RP to even have a 60% chance of reaching late-game benchmarks. A third Speedwing would help, but we only have like four Speedwings (I don't know if it's wise to go for the C11 Speedwing unless we have a decent Mage; and the Bullion (L) in C16 should be prioritized over the Speedwing, since, worst case scenario you can blow all the money on Spd-training in the arena, though oftentimes there will be better things to do with the money).

I don't think Luke should be penalized as much as Ryan since Luke's needs (two extra Arms Scrolls) aren't as contested as Ryan's needs (an extra Speedwing). I don't feel like doing binomial calculations but I'm pretty sure an average Luke needs like one Speedwing plus the RP to get by (so basically, one fewer Speedwing than Ryan).

And also, I don't know if Ryan can reliably get up to the requisite Spd (+2 from base) for a three-turn clear of Est's chapter.

Linde also above Luke. Bias. Favourtism. Etc. If you give her all (5) Spirit Dusts she can ORKO 26 SPD Berserkers in C21 at 1-2 range as a Swordmaster. How many units can even 1RKO Berserkers anyways, let alone kill them on an EP at 1-2 range? She is like the only offensive magic user other than Etzel who is actually capable of combat.

I don't recall ORKOing the C21 Berserkers to be important since Marth can just clean them up on the subsequent player phase after being weakened by Linde. It's helpful to ORKO the C20x Berserkers, though.

Linde's good for grabbing the desert Speedwing; Nos-tanking C15; chipping in for a five-turn clear of C14; early-game nuking with Aura; and post-promotional nuking with Levin Swords. I don't think that's enough to put her above Luke, especially considering we're not necessarily assuming the optimal team. If we're doing something like an Avatar-less run, one of the Seventh Platoon is likely going to get the most kills by the end of the game (your Horseman, basically).

Sirius is a promoted unit with A Rank Lances, can OHKO some things given levels and an RP, has instant Mercurius as a Swordmaster, and has access to Brave Sword and Master Sword as a Paladin or Horseman.

From my experience, Sirius is sort of stuck in a rut from Chapters 15 through 20x, inclusive. Even if he's stat-blessed, everyone else can double Soldiers and face-tank Dracoknights without fear of getting crit-blicked. Also, I don't know if the Master Sword should be assumed in this tier-list; I doubt it cuts the raw turn-count, let alone the expected turn-count.

Catria with an Energy Drop and an RP is not outperforming Palla. Palla's early access to early silver > Catria's ability to cap SPD (very early) as a Falcoknight. Palla is also a much better babysitter than Catria during the earlier chapters. In fact, Catria needs to be babied for the first few chapters after you get her so she can be useful, and even then she still needs strength procs to be independent before her promotion.

I think Caeda > Catria in spite of Caeda needing more stat-boosters than Catria because of Wing spear utility. That being said I think Palla > Caeda > Catria> Sirius.

I've never needed to baby Catria past Ch. 3; an Energy Drop and Rainbow swig get her through the early-game, and she reaches B-ranked lances pretty quickly. I would still put her above Caeda, whose Wing Spear utility shines in only a few chapters (Chs. 5, 6, 15, 18, 19), stages in which Catria is doing just as much heavy lifting (Catria doubles Dracos in C5, takes out the Mages and Bishops in C6 [her growth spread is superior to Palla's, so you gain more in the long run from having Catria do this], ORKOing Snipers in C15, ORKOing a Paladin in C18, and doubling Warriors in C19). Catria's way better in the late game, except for the Medeus chapter (where Caeda's support bonus for Marth helps a lot).

In the dragon chapters, they perform at more or less equivalent levels, though Caeda needs more boosters.

Catria has three post-Prologue chapters' worth of availability over Caeda, who in turn has five Prologue stages over Catria. Caeda definitely helps in her five stages more than Catria does in her three, but as soon as Chapter 7 starts, Catria generally has the advantage.

Marth to top of Top Tier. Pretty sure there are a myriad of unit compositions than can pave the way to a throne or gate, but Marth is essential to actually seize the throne or gate. Can anyone else seize? What do your turn counts look like without Marth not seizing?

I don't think we should reward characters for things that are literally mandatory since it adds no value to the tier list. We avoid tiering the A button above the L button for this reason.

Pretty sure efficient play and LTC give Feena permanent fielding since join time. Does any member of the Royal Airforce get this? Another note; how many resources you give to Feena? Zero?

If looking at the one best team, then yeah, Feena definitely cuts more turns; we're not always fielding the best team, though. I think Feena is clearly above Caeda, but the case for putting Feena above Catria and Palla is harder to make (but still reasonable).

[Paperblade]

Why should it matter that you need Marth to kill Medeus any more than needing Hector to seize or w/e

[eclipse]

Julian recruits three people and has thief utility. Granted, he is a PITA to recruit, but we're assuming everyone gets recruited. Rickard has the same utility as Julian, but requires Julian to exist; thus, my problem with his placement.

[XeKr]

Julian recruits three people and has thief utility. Granted, he is a PITA to recruit, but we're assuming everyone gets recruited. Rickard has the same utility as Julian, but requires Julian to exist; thus, my problem with his placement.

I’m not exactly sure how recruitment costs are being handled: we’ll have to wait for PKL. However, Rickard is lower than Julian. What’s the problem, again? >_>

[commonguard]

And also, I don't know if Ryan can reliably get up to the requisite Spd (+2 from base) for a three-turn clear of Est's chapter.

IIRC grandjackal posted that Ryan could 2 and 3 turn P-6 and P-7 at base with MaleCav!MU. Also, by feeding Ryan boss kills I’ve gotten Ryan to level 5 before him needing the 6 SPD when I did this with Knight!MU. On average, he would have 6 SPD. Using the binomial calculation, he has a 68.75% chance to meet his 6 SPD benchmark.

I don't think Luke should be penalized as much as Ryan since Luke's needs (two extra Arms Scrolls) aren't as contested as Ryan's needs (an extra Speedwing). I don't feel like doing binomial calculations but I'm pretty sure an average Luke needs like one Speedwing plus the RP to get by (so basically, one fewer Speedwing than Ryan).

He should be penalized for it. If we aren’t using Linde, likely we are expecting to use one on Malicia so she or Xane could fight Gharnef. And MU would probably need one to weild Hauteclere vs. Hardin. So 2 Armscrolls for Luke is 5000 gold. Maturity drop Marth can get away without stat-boosters until C21. If you feed Sirius boss kills (not that hard to do) he should gain enough speed so that he can double dragons as an SM with an RP at the least. 16/2 Palla with one wing and RP can double dragons. No one else needs wings. Ryan can have the remaining 3. If we are using Linde, great one more Speed wing available for Ryan.

Linde's good for grabbing the desert Speedwing; Nos-tanking C15; chipping in for a five-turn clear of C14; early-game nuking with Aura; and post-promotional nuking with Levin Swords. I don't think that's enough to put her above Luke, especially considering we're not necessarily assuming the optimal team. If we're doing something like an Avatar-less run, one of the Seventh Platoon is likely going to get the most kills by the end of the game (your Horseman, basically).

Fair enough. Horseman > Linde.

From my experience, Sirius is sort of stuck in a rut from Chapters 15 through 20x, inclusive. Even if he's stat-blessed, everyone else can double Soldiers and face-tank Dracoknights without fear of getting crit-blicked. Also, I don't know if the Master Sword should be assumed in this tier-list; I doubt it cuts the raw turn-count, let alone the expected turn-count.

I thought personal experience means nothing for tier lists?

Sirius can…

C15 – partake in boss route (killing a mage or ballista) and follow up with routing the entrance to Est’s prison or opening the door

C16 – he can kill the soldier surely (seriously, he can do this… no one fails to meet this benchmark)

C16x – probably not fielded

C17 – SM!Sirius with Mercurius can likely ORKO a DK

C18 – he can kill a ballista, he can also OHKO a Paladin with a Ridersbane forge you need for the next chapter

C19 – he has Ridersbane forge and can do some stuff

C20 – SM!Sirius with Mercurius strikes again

C20x – probably not fielded

Sure he’s doing the type of work you’d expect an intern to do over say an employee with 15 years of work experience but he’s done a lot of things for you in C4-C9 and then he’s held his own during the dragon chapters. He’s paid his dues. The description for Top tier only requires the core for many chapters, not perform exceptionally from join time until end of game. And he still has Brave Sword to himself.

Although there should be a clarification on what efficient play is. I personally disagree with expected turncounts. You penalize someone for rigging a critical near a save point. How would you penalize someone for taking advantage of a blessed unit? Or would you at all? Why are criticals penalized while stat-blessings aren’t? I prefer a compromise between turncounts and realtime. If a save point is used, and the very next action is an attempt at a critical that’s over 30% I think that is more than acceptable. Still there should be clarification for this.

I've never needed to baby Catria past Ch. 3; an Energy Drop and Rainbow swig get her through the early-game, and she reaches B-ranked lances pretty quickly.

Catria has three post-Prologue chapters' worth of availability over Caeda, who in turn has five Prologue stages over Catria. Caeda definitely helps in her five stages more than Catria does in her three, but as soon as Chapter 7 starts, Catria generally has the advantage.

I feel like Catria is overrated but you’re probably right here.

I don't think we should reward characters for things that are literally mandatory since it adds no value to the tier list. We avoid tiering the A button above the L button for this reason.

Well, that’s just nonsense. The two statements have nothing to do with each other. The stylus renders the A button superfluous. And besides, I do tier the A button above the L button. It’s right there below the Stylus. (Just kidding, stylus sucks.)

Are you really proposing tiering based on forced actions?

The difference with the Medeus thing is that it is possible to kill him without Marth, just not efficiently.

No, I was kidding about Marth to top of Top. Honestly I would bench him if I could. Without forced actions and forced deployment he’s a lot like Julian except better bases. But he is usable with a lot of stat-boosters and he gives out a lot of supports so I will reiterate. If we are going by his combat prowess he’s probably fit for somewhere in High, or maybe Upper Mid. I do not think Marth’s ability to fight Medeus should count either. That’s just bullshit. However, has anyone actually managed to kill him without help from Marth at all?

I want PKL to make a clarification about what can be used to tier Marth, or just remove Marth from tiering.

Without the fact that you need Marth to seize, and he is practically mandatory to fight Medeus what is he worth? He’s a class-locked, 7 MOV unit, with okayish bases and decent growths, and is the only unit that can visit villages. Seriously, is this a joke? He’s Julian with better bases, he gives out support bonuses, and he can visit villages. Um… bench. Oh wait, forced deployment. What bullshit is this IS?

If looking at the one best team, then yeah, Feena definitely cuts more turns; we're not always fielding the best team, though. I think Feena is clearly above Caeda, but the case for putting Feena above Catria and Palla is harder to make (but still reasonable).

Top Tier is defined as

”Units that are core to achieving low turn counts on many maps, and do not require many resources or a team composition to do this effectively.”

Does Feena not fit this description perfectly?

She is core to achieving low turn counts on every map after join time. She requires no resources. She doesn’t require a specific team composition, but she does require one that is not substandard. Obviously, you can’t expect her to carry the weight of the entire 7 platoon being fielded at once but given a team of combat able units that can hold their own against the majority of enemy units, she going above and beyond what is required to be placed in Top Tier. Is there another unit that is going above and beyond what is required to be placed in Top Tier?

As far as team composition, I think it’s fair to assume everyone currently in Top is assumed to make it on to the team (except for lolYumina) for efficient/LTC play. I mean really, read the description for Top Tier. If someone came to you with countless exceptional reference letters, and will work for free or very little, why would you not hire them?

Also, if team composition is not as assumed as I think it is than Xane needs to drop. Because that guy needs a GOOD unit to imitate or he’s useless.

I don't disagree, but why is Julian so high then? Combat?

Combat? Trolling? E Swords… what combat?

Julian recruits three people and has thief utility. Granted, he is a PITA to recruit, but we're assuming everyone gets recruited. Rickard has the same utility as Julian, but requires Julian to exist; thus, my problem with his placement.

I rationalized Julian’s placement as such. He gets you 10K Gold at a time where you may be hurting for cash, especially if you like to distribute stat-boosters early on and forge really expensive ass bows.

I’m not exactly sure how recruitment costs are being handled: we’ll have to wait for PKL. However, Rickard is lower than Julian. What’s the problem, again? >_>

Julian is better than Rickard… sure but by how much? Two tiers worth? Because that’s the current difference between them.

Nagi is easily argued to be significantly better than Tiki. But they are in the same tier.

Oh did I mention, Nagi is in the same tier as Rickard. If you think that is funny, guess who is currently separating Nagi and TIki.

Edited September 16, 2013 by commonguard

[PKL]

I'm not gonna lie, this took me 1 hour and 30 minutes to read and reply :P

Whoops, forgot this.

Whether Ellerean gets that Arms Scroll is dependent on whether or not ANYONE ELSE wants it first. Do you need a non-bow-thing to get to Steel in a hurry? Bye-bye Scroll! If Ellerean's utility is tied to an item, I think he's fine where he is.

Dolph/Macellan/Ymir are in a weird spot. On one hand, they're near-unusable. On the other, they auto-join, so they technically don't waste turns. Perhaps the tier definitions need a bit of clarity in regards to this?

Lastly, can someone explain when I'd ever bother with Rickard?

Dolph/Macellan/Ymir: They're near unusable and they auto recruit. But we're recruiting everyone anyway. Ymir is at the bottom of the bottom tier because of his jointime. Tomas can chip something in his join chapter with Silver Bow and then get benched eternally, Sheema has an actual Bow rank and joins earlier, Macellan can open the C16 door. Ymir is simply the worst. He does nothing ever except trade his Silver Axe and Killer Bow to someone so they can sell em :P

About Rickard: I overestimated how much thief utility not named Julian is worth in this game. Julian is responsible for getting Rickard in C6 and one of the 2 can then get us 10,000G, which is pretty neat. If Rickard is recruited in C5, Rickard can still get the Bullion by using Pure Water/Rainbow Pot. It's more costly than Julian getting it, but he can still do it. Since he does it worse, he's still lower, but not as low as he'd be if I assumed Julian did it 100% of the time like in SDS's tier lists. They (only 1 by then but durability of the thief only matters in Chapter 6, where they have to take a swarm to get the Bullion) also save Thief charges by getting the Capricorn and the Boots (early) in Chapter 9.

An issue I see with Barst is Pirate not being a very available class- there's only one slot for it before Darros joins and MU/Rody/Draug/etc. may want to use it. He's rather dependent on the Pirate base Spd for his performance.

That's a good point. Athough in the case of Avatar, I don't see how he'd still be a Pirate when he's very likely to be promoted already as our best combat unit. I'm still sure an ideal Barst is better than scrubs like Frey and Roger though.

I am 99% sure that KoT's 165-turn run involved only one Marth crit on Medeus (seeing as how he used no Rescue or Again uses and cleared Final in two turns). For this reason, I think it should be possible to slowly wear down Medeus with things like Mercurius crits (btw, all magic users get doubled, so they'll have to get in the last hit if they're being used).

Yeah, I meant a forged Thoron crit from a Sage sacrificing itself and then finishing him off with someone else. I remember dondon telling me that's probably the only way to beat him in 0% growths H2.

Linde, Luke, Ryan

Ryan above Luke. I seriously think with the RP, and Ryan having access to like 3 Speedwings, he is better than Luke. He outperforms Luke during prologue and it's possible to get MU to lvl 9, Ryan to 7 and Caeda to 8 during prologue. A 7-turn of P-8 isn't impossible with Luke, but it likely needs Merc!MU or (multiple) dodges from Athena and Ogma vs. hand axes. Both Luke and Ryan will need a ton of Speedwings to meet benchmarks for strategies as a Horseman so they should definitely still be in High.

I'm not sure. You bring up a decent point. Luke needing 1 less Speedwing but 2 Arms Scroll (less contested) to meet his benchmarks makes him safer to use. On the other hand, Ryan's prologue is pretty boss and can be useful throughout given the right resources (can be anywhere from 1-3 Wings) but requiring more Wings to get to the right benchmarks makes him inferior to Luke in my book.

[spoiler=Linde]

Linde also above Luke. Bias. Favourtism. Etc. If you give her all (5) Spirit Dusts she can ORKO 26 SPD Berserkers in C21 at 1-2 range as a Swordmaster. How many units can even 1RKO Berserkers anyways, let alone kill them on an EP at 1-2 range? She is like the only offensive magic user other than Etzel who is actually capable of combat. I would try to argue Linde > Ryan, but seeing as you've made numerous posts arguing the contrary, I would bother with it now. I've mentioned a bunch of other stuff in the H4 efficiency thread and the Linde vs Ryan thread as to what she could potentially contribute. Linde, Luke and Ryan pretty much in the same boat as far as the number of resources needed to perform their respective duties.

Linde's contributions are replicable by others. She's actually a great unit, don't get me wrong. But she's not good enough to be above the potential Horsemans. Horseman is just too invaluable in lategame.

Athena vs. Other Prologue Peeps

Athena is at the bottom of Mid, while Ogma (at the top of Upper mid), Wrys, Merric, Cain (didn't even contribute to prologue because Est is better for P-8) are all in Upper mid. Like I see how Ogma and Merric could be used during the game, but how do you justify Wrys and Cain? And even worse, why is Gordin above Athena? Pretty sure Athena is fieled in P-5 up to P-8. What’s Gordin doing that makes up for that?

Trust me, this one was complicated and I thought about it a lot. Athena is where she is because:

She contributes a lot to Turncounts in the Prologue. This seems like high tier material. But then she's not present until Chapter 13x and comes back unusable. So I penalized her future self, which is bottom tier worthy and averaged it to her current position.

Ogma contributes in the Prologue AND is a serviceable unit that joins fairly early into the game.

Wrys is just because without his healing in Prologue, you lose Player Phase actions using vulnerary, which can in turn mean turns/reliability of a strat lost. He also joins fairly early into the game to be a secondstring staffbot if you so desire.

Merric is where he is because he's actually pretty clutch in Draug route P6 and he's almost invaluable at luring the Levin Sword Thieves in Prologue 8. In the main game, he's like a worse Etzel, but is still plenty usable.

Cain actually is pretty nice if you go his route. Being fairly tanky, so he can take on Silver Axe Barbarians in the Prologue. He's borderline usable when he comes back though. Actually, I do see where you're coming from.

Gordin is there because of availability and because he can use the Steel/Iron Bow forge to help out in C2 and 3.

[spoiler=Sirius]

Sirius is a promoted unit with A Rank Lances, can OHKO some things given levels and an RP, has instant Mercurius as a Swordmaster, and has access to Brave Sword and Master Sword as a Paladin or Horseman. Luke doesn’t have access to these weapons if he’s busting his ass building Bow Rank. Given adequate usage and enough levels (which we are assuming), an Angelic Robe, a Speedwing, a wyrmslayer, reclassing to Hero and a RP usage he is 1RKOing dragons in C12-C14. 2 stat-boosters, a weapon, a RP usage and he’s killing dragons. No babying required. He does all this without really requiring many resources and yet Luke, who is contributing significantly less than him early on and requires multiple Speedwings and Armscrolls to contribute effectively as a Horseman, is above him. For fuck’s sake he can even be a decent Horseman (Luke’s goal in life) with enough boss kills, dragon kills and an assortment of stat-boosters (approximately the same number as Luke but different types). Honestly this man (Sirius) deserves to be in the same tier as Catria. He isn't better than her but he's in the same goddamn tier. Sirius does need resources to become exceptional, but he's contributing enough without anything more than an Angelic Robe, Speedwing a RP usage and whatever time it takes you to RECLASS him. Don’t view feeding him boss kills as babying, he’s capable enough to get to the boss in a timely manner (usually will be among the first to get there) and does a good enough chunk of damage to warrant giving him the kill. As for the dragon kills, since he’s ORKOing them he deserves them.

I'm well aware of Sirius being godlike when he joins. But it's often overlooked that his exp gain is just too bad for his growths to kick in and allow him to meet his benchmarks well. Those bosskills are usually better allocated on our potential Horseman (Luke or Ryan), Caeda (for obvious reasons) or the Macedon Pegasus Sisters. He gets less exp from bosskills than those. So why should I give them to him? He has trouble meeting his benchmark spd for C9 iirc. And definetely needs favoritism or a Speedwing to not get doubled in C11. His contributions after the Dragon Valley are also pretty bad and things anyone can do.

Xane

Xane above Etzel. Xane is the MASTER of all trades. Etzel is a secondary staff bot with an ability to OHKO air units. I think I've run into issues with Etzel not being able to OHKO air units in some of the later chapters actually.

Hmm...I actualy agree.

Arran and some units from High

Arran is your first promoted unit and incredibly useful in the first half a dozen chapters. Why are all of Minerva, Cecille, Rody and Draug above him? I see some justification for Minerva but the other 3? Draug, Rody, Cecille are the worst of this group and they should be at the bottom of High. Minerva should be above those 3 but below Linde, Luke and Ryan. Arran should be bottom of Top. He does a good enough job babysitting units up to C7 (can combo with an unpromoted flier for easy theif kills) that he deserves to be at the bottom of Top at least. He’s not long term but 7 maps of babying units so they can be useful later on is a pretty big contribution and certainly more than what Etzel is doing for you. IIRC he saves turns in C11, and then for the most part becomes a second rate staff bot. Even Xane for instance, how many maps is he being fielded for? C14 (join chapter), C15, C18, C19, C20, C21, C22, C23? Xane has like 1 map on Arran. Big whoop. Arran is just awkward in High anyways since no amount of stat-boosters can fix him for mid and late game. And he is certainly deserving of a position above Upper Mid.

Cecille is a better unit longterm and can do some things with that Lady Sword. She also is the fastest of the 7th platoon trio. She has potential to become a good Sword Falcoknight if you wanted Catria to go Dracoknight for some reason. She's no slouch.

Rody is like Luke except with weirdly bad bases that don't allow him as many opportunities to gain exp in the Prologue. But he's still usable and has a very nice Lance rank. A decent longterm unit if trained tbh.

Draug has serviceable bases and a really nice spd growth. He joins early enough where his terrible weapon ranks won't be as much of an issue.

If anyone drops to below Arran out of those, it would be Minerva. Her Hauteclere is nice for C10 to OHKO shaver mages, her C11 contribution is basically getting the Whip for Catria in the 5 turn but any reclassed Dracoknight can do it tbh and then she's extremely mediocre because her bases just aren't enough. Her spd base doesn't allow her to double any type of Dragon ever but she needs a RP or Wing to escape being doubled by wyverns. Her str also doesnt allow her to pull off Swordmaster that well throughout C13-14. She's thoroughly mediocre.

Arran on the other hand is a unit that helps us tank Chapter 1. Can be a Sniper or General in C2 to help with Dracoknights with Bows. And can be a decent contributor iirc in C3. Then he's expendable aside from miscellaneous stuff like getting the Leo Shard in C8. He's a unit that helps a lot but needs to be dropped eventually. The entire prologue group can be serviceable units throughout the game. So I think they ultimately beat him.

Yumina

If Arran is not in Top, what the hell is Yumina doing there? Arran's contributions to the first few chapters (arguably the most annoying) are far more than Yumina's 'Oh, look I'm a second rate Physic user' bullshit. Let's be realistic, no one is fielding Yumina and having her waste use Physic charges long enough for her to reach B staves on her own or level 10 for a promotion so she can move up to being a back-up Again or Recover staff user. She isn't core to any chapter except C4 (her join chapter). She's completely obsoleted by Katarina (C16x, yeah it's a long way to go but still). She's effectively replaced by Etzel (who reaches C staves by C12 easily if you field him in C10 and have him Mend people in C11). In fact Etzel can easily reach B staves as a Bishop (could probably also do it as a Sage) by C21 so you have a second Again staff user. I realize you don't want to tier people based on if other people do their job better than them (which I personally find strange), but she has no qualities that warrant her being in Top and other people are doing her job better (albiet at a later date). I would say Upper Mid or Mid is better for her. C staves with abysmal MAG does not heal much with Physic.

I agree with her not being Top Tier worthy. But a second Physic user does help a lot. She doesn't need any investment to do this. And can be a B staff rank user like Malicia. The reason I don't want to tier based on if someone does their job better is because of stuff in past tier lists like this:

Miriel does her job better than Ricken in FE13. Even if Ricken really isn't that far from doing what Miriel does, in fact, it is arguable whether she's really better in LTC. But SDS put Ricken at the bottom of the list and Miriel in Mid Tier or something like that.

It leads to really bad situations where someone being better at something means the other character is never assumed to be used. I prefer to evaluate those types of units with these thoughts in mind:

What if the player doesn't have access to Miriel?

What if the player let Miriel die on accident and saved over the file?

How does said character perform if the other character didn't exist?

If I don't ask these questions to myself when tiering such units, I don't see any point in tiering them tbh.

I'll still drop her though. She's definetely not deserving of Top Tier because a big part of why Malicia is in Top Tier is because of Hammerne, which Yumina will never replicate. She can replicate Physic, Fortify, Rescue and early B staves, but never the possibility of Nosferatanking with resources or Hammerne.

Palla vs. Catria

Palla definitely above Catria. Palla with a Speedwing and RP can be expected to double everything she actually needs to double (up to 18 SPD dragons). Past that, she just needs to be able to contribute to the team, and she can easily be relegated to a Sniper position. Catria with an Energy Drop and an RP is not outperforming Palla. Palla's early access to early silver > Catria's ability to cap SPD (very early) as a Falcoknight. Palla is also a much better babysitter than Catria during the earlier chapters. In fact, Catria needs to be babied for the first few chapters after you get her so she can be useful, and even then she still needs strength procs to be independent before her promotion.
I think Caeda > Catria in spite of Caeda needing more stat-boosters than Catria because of Wing spear utility. That being said I think Palla > Caeda > Catria> Sirius.

True at the first part. But not the at the rest. Catria is just plain better at combat than Caeda in a lot of chapters. And is extremely good as a Falcoknight in lategame. i don't think Caeda's bosskills, Prologue and other utility stuff can ever put her above Catria.

I EDITED THIS SPOILER
Placement of Marth

Silly argument but whatever.
Marth to top of Top Tier. Pretty sure there are a myriad of unit compositions than can pave the way to a throne or gate, but Marth is essential to actually seize the throne or gate. Can anyone else seize? What do your turn counts look like without Marth not seizing? Oh, what’s that? You didn’t complete C1 you say? He is as core to achieving low turn counts as it gets. No one is more essential . Marth is king (well prince but close enough… actually if he’s prince who is king? Isn’t he just straight-up the king? Seriously, who is king of Altea?). Either way top of Top please.
EDIT: Maturity Drop Marth with a Speedwing and RP could likely start doubling and ORKOing dragons with a light wyrmslayer forge in C14. If you forge an armourslayer (up to 4000 gold) he could also ORKO the General in C16, allowing a high MOV combat unit to kill the Fortify staff Bishop, then be danced by Feena to seize. You have to rescue whoever is going to kill the Geosphere theif so they can reach him but he can get you another Fortify staff. Maturity Drop Marth is no joke.

Yeah, Maturity Drop Marth is no joke. He's extremely capable. Drill Grounding him with Devil Sword/Killing Edge/Wo Dao is another option he has to double the Dragons so he can get some nice exp. But your seize argument is bad and you should feel bad.

Feena vs. Royal Airforce (also Malicia and Avatar/MU)

Pretty sure efficient play and LTC give Feena permanent fielding since join time. Does any member of the Royal Airforce get this? Another note; how many resources you give to Feena? Zero?
Feena should be directly under Marth. I cannot stress this enough, there is not a single chapter I would not field her in.
Then I'm not sure if Malicia or Avatar/MU should take the 3rd spot. Hammerne, best staff bot and Fortify-spam vs. being a boss and recipient of the 'Best Combat Unit' award. Tough call. Good luck with that one.

It depends. I can see Feena being second to Malicia when it comes to saving turns. Malicia's rescue repairs and stuff like that are invaluable and save a bunch of turns. While Feena saves a turn in most of the maps she's in.

Stuff that is below this line I don’t really care about but may be relevant to you or someone else?

This is where Est resides? She requires exp, by way of being babied... probably at the cost of turn counts. I think she should be one tier lower.

Nagi can probably stand to be higher. (Almost) OHKOing dragons and all. Definitely leagues above Tiki. I feel like the Endgame Bishops are misplaced but I am unsure of where they actually belong. On the one hand, 2 A Rank staff users and a B rank to boot. On the other hand, recruiting them is a bitch.

Est's position vs the others in low tier is mostly because of her unique contribution in Prologue 8 if recruited. She's completely terrible when she comes back, but does more overall to save turns than the others in her tier. I did penalize it similar to Athena when she comes back though.

Answers bolded in quote. Whew, that took me an entire hour to reply to. Also, some of the spoilers might be messy.

Reclassing and all the stat-boosters available do mean anyone is "technically" usable in fringe contexts. I suppose one could argue them above the ones who do strictly cost turns to recruit but it's not a big difference. Dunno really.

And I think one of the ideas behind this list is that it doesn't matter if a unit is strictly outclassed. All that matters is what they could potentially accomplish if given the opportunity. And Rickard opening doors/chests is always useful I suppose (I need to review when specifically a Thief is actually needed over keys though).

Medeus has 99/42 hp/def. >_>

24 Str of SM/Horseman + 3 weapon rank + 18 Mercurius = 45...

30 Str Berserker + 20 Haute = 50...

iirc you can't sac the Manaketes into him in this game, so Marth is really the only efficient way (1 Marth crit is already >60 damage). Though it does look like saccing some forged Thoron users might work...

Anyways, it does look doable but may need rigging multiple crits/dodges across multiple turns, plus probably costs a bunch of money and/or (much) more exp investment into a Sage, which obviously just obliterates turncount/reliability everywhere. Could put Marth into "lolMedeus" tier or just leave him where he is already in place in top. Doesn't really matter to me.

But basically even if ignoring absolute “forced” actions like seize, Marth is probably still one of or is the most essential character to efficient clears.

Moar later mebe.

Yeah, he's essential. I don't think seizing should count though. Past tier lists have never tiered lords like that and it would be weird.

There are none except C6 and you only need one. I don't think you ever need 2 thieves. Between Thief staff, Master Keys, Door Keys, and Marth with the Fire Emblem, you never really need a thief past C6. The Swordslayer in C14 is nice but it isn't necessary and is usually a consolation prize if you don't have the team composition for a 5 turn clear. Recruiting Rickard is kind of annoying in C5 and even if you do manage it, he can't tank the Swarm Bishop in C6 on his way to the 10K bullion. He's like the worst unit.


Matters to me. Marth to top of Top. Can't even get past C1 without him.

If we are going by Marth's combat prowess he should find a nice home in High. Definitely not Top, needs way too many stat-boosters on top of the one and only boots.

Combat!Marth is actually very nice. Being one of the few units who aren't completely obliterated if they are looked the wrong way early on. That and the Rapier and stuff and not having to seize anymore, he'd be actually pretty good.

I don't disagree, but why is Julian so high then? Combat?


Are you really proposing tiering based on forced actions?

Do you agree with the following? Lyn for top of top tier for seizing prologue? Micaiah for top of top tier for seizing 1-E? Can't get past the FE12 prologue without MU too.

This is a extremely old argument you're making and I think you'll find no one really agrees with that view (with good reason).

The difference with the Medeus thing is that it is possible to kill him without Marth, just not efficiently.

Julian gets us 10,000G in Chapter 6 without needing to expend Rainbow Pot uses on a thief (lol) and allows us to get the Boots and the Capricorn without expending Thief charges and still 5 turn Chapter 9. He makes a better combat unit than Rickard, due to his at least decent spd base even though it's still worse than like everyone and you shouldn't really be using him in combat. He also recruits Lena, a B staff user (that's required due to the recruit everyone rule) that can Again or heal Marth in endgame.

Why should it matter that you need Marth to kill Medeus any more than needing Hector to seize or w/e

Good question. I think the difference is that Marth isn't the only way to beat Medeus, he's simply the best at it. While seizing is a 100% required action to beat the game and part of the mechanics of the game.

Julian recruits three people and has thief utility. Granted, he is a PITA to recruit, but we're assuming everyone gets recruited. Rickard has the same utility as Julian, but requires Julian to exist; thus, my problem with his placement.

But Rickard is already much lower than Julian, so I don't see why it's a problem.

I’m not exactly sure how recruitment costs are being handled: we’ll have to wait for PKL. However, Rickard is lower than Julian. What’s the problem, again? >_>

Since recruitment is required, I decided not to penalize units that need to be recruited. But in situations like Julian with Lena, he can get some points for recruiting her.

Changed:

Feena below Malicia

Yumina below Linde

Xane above Etzel

Barst over Roger

Leiden above Belf

Nagi above Maria (I still feel the other Bishop's again, fortify, etc. are better than Nagi's almost OHKOs on dragons, shes above Maria only because Maria cant again)

Athena over Jeorge

Maybe:

Malicia above Avatar ?

Marth to High Tier above Luke?

Julian vs Rickard, should Julian really be that high compared to him?

I want to discuss:

Arran vs Minerva

Gordin vs Belf/Leiden

Katarina vs Wendell

Nagi above Maria

More lower tier discussion (yes, I want this)

Edited September 16, 2013 by PKL

[commonguard]

About Sirius

I'm well aware of Sirius being godlike when he joins. But it's often overlooked that his exp gain is just too bad for his growths to kick in and allow him to meet his benchmarks well.

His exp gain wasn’t overlooked, it’s actually the reason why I said to give him boss exp.

Those bosskills are usually better allocated on our potential Horseman (Luke or Ryan)

When are these two ever in a position to get the boss kill in C5-C10x?

Caeda (for obvious reasons)

Obvious reasons being so she cannot gain STR? Honestly, I try to get her to cap SPD as a cavalier ASAP, get her an arena level as an archer so she can cheat the SPD cap and promote and not be useless while continuing to grow.

or the Macedon Pegasus Sisters

Palla needs boss kills to get 6 levels before a promotion for C8? (That’s when I promote her and I usually just give her the C3 boss kill and that’s it.) Catria is usually promoted to FK, she’s got ages to get to level 15-17 or w/e for her promotion.

He gets less exp from bosskills than those. So why should I give them to him?

He gets even less from unpromoted units. You know denying Sirius exp is sandbagging right?

He has trouble meeting his benchmark spd for C9 iirc.

He needs 15 SPD before the RP. How hard is the sandbagging that he can’t gain 3 levels as a DK in five maps especially when he is one of the units who has easy access to hit the boss? It’s not like we need 3 different people to drop the boss’s health to a single digit so Sirius can swoop in and steal the kill. He does a good chunk of the damage for it not to be considered favouritism when he gets the kill. 3 levels and on average he has 15 SPD as a DK. Even if he doesn’t, he can be fielded as a Sniper and borrow that expensive ass bow forge we like to make and pick off a DK and get some of the exp he was being denied earlier.

And definetely needs favoritism or a Speedwing to not get doubled in C11.

It’s the same benchmark as C9… and experience so a unit can level up and remain useful is now favouritism? He doesn’t need the Speedwing FYI.

It is certainly possible to get Sirius to level 13 before going into C15, simply by giving him most of the boss kills before the dragon chapters and letting him go ORKO a bunch of dragons as a Hero or an SM. It is really mindless actually. A likely bad case scenario, he needs a Speedwing and RP to double as a Hero, or he needs a +1 wyrmslayer forge (my god the expense) to ORKO as an SM.

A level 13 Sirius with 6 levels as a DK, 3 levels as an SM and 3 levels as a Hero has 25 SPD as a Hero and 27 as an SM. You mean to tell me you think a 25 SPD Hero or 27 SPD SM is useless?

Why can’t Sirius join the cool kids and be in Top tier? He contributes enough early game, he’s doing solid work in dragon chapters. He’s holding his own in mid game and he isn’t worthless in late. He requires an Angelic Robe, Energy Drop, and possibly a Speedwing (but probably not). 2-3 Statboosters. How many does Caeda need? Angelic Robe and 2 Energy drops. So same amount, why is he not in the same tier as Caeda?

About Marth

Why should it matter that you need Marth to kill Medeus any more than needing Hector to seize or w/e

Good question. I think the difference is that Marth isn't the only way to beat Medeus, he's simply the best at it. While seizing is a 100% required action to beat the game and part of the mechanics of the game.

The more I think about this, the more I think Marth isn't deserving of a position anywhere near Top.

On the one hand we have Marth's ability to seize, accurately put by Redwall as "literally mandatory". On the other hand we have Marth's ability to kill Medeus which I would say is practically mandatory. (If someone knows of a reliable, cost-effective way to kill Medeus without Marth, I'm all ears.)

What is the difference between literally mandatory and practically mandatory other than a meaningless technicality?

It is for the reason of killing Medeus that we give Marth all the favouritism, stat-boosters and babying in the world. No other unit gets this kind of consideration. Apparently Sirius can't get exp fast enough because giving him boss kills and exp in general is favouritism. But Marth gets away rape, murder and grand larceny to boot. No one bats an eye.

Belf/Leiden > Gordin (he has bad growths for long term use) and I usually just pick archers based on specific STR value so they combo nicely with another unit for a kill on DKs in C3. Past C3 I don’t see Gordin being fielded.

Arran > Minerva. But Minerva I think is still better than Draug, Cecille and Rody. No training required, C Lances and Hauteclere utility.

Katarina > Wendell. I’ve never needed to field Wendell, and his staff rank isn’t as useful as Katarina’s. Katarina can also be useful as a long-shot Gharnef slayer option. (She has nice SPD base +growth and nice MAG base as well.)

Michalis can be fixed up to be decent with a lot of Goddess Icons. He’s got good bases. Just his LUK really. Maybe to Upper Low tier? If you give him the Icons, he may not be detrimental to turn counts.

[-Cynthia-]

I think Belf/Leiden are in the wrong tier entirely- they're probably more comparable to Darros rather than anything else.

Absolute bases

Belf HP: 17 Str: 9 Skl:13 Spd: 6 Lck: 8 Def:5 Res:0

Leiden HP: 16 Str: 7 Skl: 12 Spd: 9 Lck: 10 Def: 4 Res: 1

Darros Hp: 17 Str: 9 Skl: 8 Spd: 6 Lck: 9 Def: 7 Res: 0

Darros is already promoted which saves us an Arms Scroll, but we can use Belf/Leiden's unpromoted state to get them some stats before promotion. Darros has axes which is cool, but they have Dragonpikes. I'd say Leiden>Darros>Belf personally, since Leiden's the only one who can double without a Wing.

I don't see why Wendell is so many tiers below Etzel personally- they do the same staff user stuff although Wendell does it for slightly longer. Etzel has a 4 Mag advantage at base (and 20% more growth), but I'm not sure how many times Wendell actually misses the Wyvern/Dracoknight KOs and Etzel hits it. Wendell is outclassed here, but they're largely swappable.

I also like Minerva better than Rody/Draug, but maybe that's just my aversion to reclassing units to classes where they have E weapon ranks. Arran is...tricky, although I'd say he only really has ~6 chapters of usefulness tops.

I agree that while Michalis has annoying Lck issues that seems easier to salvage than terrible units like Radd or Samto.

[XeKr]

Although there should be a clarification on what efficient play is. I personally disagree with expected turncounts. You penalize someone for rigging a critical near a save point. How would you penalize someone for taking advantage of a blessed unit? Or would you at all? Why are criticals penalized while stat-blessings aren’t? I prefer a compromise between turncounts and realtime. If a save point is used, and the very next action is an attempt at a critical that’s over 30% I think that is more than acceptable. Still there should be clarification for this.

Expected turncount does penalize needing stat-blessing because it adversely affects reliability.

No, I was kidding about Marth to top of Top. Honestly I would bench him if I could. Without forced actions and forced deployment he’s a lot like Julian except better bases. But he is usable with a lot of stat-boosters and he gives out a lot of supports so I will reiterate. If we are going by his combat prowess he’s probably fit for somewhere in High, or maybe Upper Mid. I do not think Marth’s ability to fight Medeus should count either. That’s just bullshit. However, has anyone actually managed to kill him without help from Marth at all?

I want PKL to make a clarification about what can be used to tier Marth, or just remove Marth from tiering.

Without the fact that you need Marth to seize, and he is practically mandatory to fight Medeus what is he worth? He’s a class-locked, 7 MOV unit, with okayish bases and decent growths, and is the only unit that can visit villages. Seriously, is this a joke? He’s Julian with better bases, he gives out support bonuses, and he can visit villages. Um… bench. Oh wait, forced deployment. What bullshit is this IS?

I apologize, but your posting style makes it quite hard to discern when you’re being serious and when you’re not. And I definitely don’t have the time nor interest to divine it so I'll take most things itt at face value, especially when you say stuff like “it matters to me.” Please use strikethrough text when appropriate.

Marth does have many advantages over others (most notably the Falchion). I’m of the opinion he should be rewarded for what he is really good at (when you do get the choice). And he is indeed much better than the cast against Medeus (but not required) and is expected (statistically) to save many turns. However, I did note earlier that it doesn’t actually matter to me where he goes. I greatly prefer logical consistency and simplicity (it is much easier to draw a line between mandatory or not vs. defining what exactly "practical" is), but I’m not going to rant against an ad hoc solution. Mainly b/c imo it’s just not that interesting to discuss beyond the little theoryFE for Marth-less Medeuskills.

Combat? Trolling? E Swords… what combat?

I rationalized Julian’s placement as such. He gets you 10K Gold at a time where you may be hurting for cash, especially if you like to distribute stat-boosters early on and forge really expensive ass bows.

For reference, I was also suggesting that a possible reason Julian is that high is on thief utility alone (not to say I necessarily agree or disagree. Still undecided). I was assuming it wasn’t for his combat (my question was rhetorical), which as you alluded to, is not exactly that great.

Julian is better than Rickard… sure but by how much? Two tiers worth? Because that’s the current difference between them.

Nagi is easily argued to be significantly better than Tiki. But they are in the same tier.

Oh did I mention, Nagi is in the same tier as Rickard. If you think that is funny, guess who is currently separating Nagi and TIki.

(Are you addressing me here? You did quote my post). Anyways, you’ll notice I’m not the one who actually placed Julian/Rickard (or any of these other placements you apparently have a problem with). I’m mainly asking to clarify whether Eclipse thinks Rickard is too high/low, especially relative to Julian (already 2 tiers difference), and why exactly when he’s essentially Julian-lite.

Edited September 16, 2013 by XeKr

[commonguard]

You quoted about Julian and Rickard's relative positions and said, something to the effect of Julian > Rickard and it is reflected on the tier list. I was pointing out that while the tier list does address the fact that Julian > RIckard, it is in accurate as to how much by using the relative placement of Nagi and Tiki and the fact that Rickard was between those two in addition to Rickard being two full tiers below Julian. I should probably try to be formal though, seeing how this is a tier list. My apologies. I will also use strikethroughs when I am joking. Also, apparently Julian's combat was taken into consideration. 14 SPD was mentioned as pro for him. I mean I guess it's there, Armscroll for Devil Sword? If someone was serious about using Julian I guess he could be viable for a time.

Expected turncount does penalize needing stat-blessing because it adversely affects reliability.

How exactly is this done? As I understand it, for rigging a critical (40%) on say two turns after a save point is used. I believe this would just add 3 turns to the expected turn count. 2 (turns after save point) times 1 over 0.4, then subtract the original 2 turns it would have taken without the critical? Do expected turn counts penalize needing stat-blessed units in a very precise manner? I'm assuming it is at the very least complicated.

I don't see why Wendell is so many tiers below Etzel personally- they do the same staff user stuff although Wendell does it for slightly longer. Etzel has a 4 Mag advantage at base (and 20% more growth), but I'm not sure how many times Wendell actually misses the Wyvern/Dracoknight KOs and Etzel hits it. Wendell is outclassed here, but they're largely swappable.

I've run into issues where Etzel was only borderline KOing wyrms, although in that playthrough I was fielding Linde instead of Etzel so I know if he doesn't run into those issues normally. Either way, 4 MAG is a pretty significant gap. It takes Etzel 10 levels to get 4 MAG and it takes Wendell 20 levels. Basically, Wendell on average won't even have base Etzel MAG. Etzel also has better durability (winning in both HP and DEF), although in some cases this could turn out to be a bad thing when you want a mage to tank a ballista hit. Edited September 17, 2013 by commonguard

[Redwall]

About Sirius

Caeda's Prologue performance is way better than Sirius' earlygame performance; the Wing Spear is much better against Lang than a forged Armorslayer; Caeda's support with Marth dramatically increases reliability of the final clear, thus cutting expected turn-count; Caeda's high Luck means that she won't get crit-blicked, in contrast to Sirius; her hit rate is generally better as a consequence of her high Lck and better (slightly) support list.

The Mercurius is nice, but Luke can do the job just fine with Silver Swords. As for the dragon chapters, I don't think doubling the dragons is enough to put Sirius in the top tier; Luke, Ryan, Cecille, Draug, and Rody can double and ORKO just fine.

I think Linde should move above Minerva. As short-term no-investment units, Linde can nuke C3 Dracoknights, C3x Knights, finish off C4 Fighters, and nuke C5 Snipers, while Minerva can OHKO Mages in C10 and fetch the Elysian Whip in the desert. As a long-term unit,

Linde's good for grabbing the desert Speedwing; Nos-tanking C15; chipping in for a five-turn clear of C14; early-game nuking with Aura; and post-promotional nuking with Levin Swords. I don't think that's enough to put her above Luke, especially considering we're not necessarily assuming the optimal team. If we're doing something like an Avatar-less run, one of the Seventh Platoon is likely going to get the most kills by the end of the game (your Horseman, basically).

Linde doubles Kleine in 13x as a Swordmaster and deals a ton of damage with Levin Swords, which is nifty. In C21, she either ORKOs Berserkers (if given Spirit Dusts, which no one else needs anyway) or weakens them enough for Marth or Sirius to finish. Also, she can use about ten-ish Nosferatu uses before promotion to go for a decent arena streak.

Minerva's not really doing that much; she has a hard time staying afloat since IIRC she can't ORKO Ice Dragons with a +1-Mt Wyrmslayer, and since her per-level growths are low compared to (say) Sirius'. The boosters Minerva needs are I think more contested than Linde's. Linde needs the Seraph Robe and five Spirit Dusts (three of them store-bought)--she won't need a Speedwing for C15 if she Nosferatus through the arena)--while Minerva needs at least an Energy Drop and a Speedwing.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Redwall

[commonguard]

About Sirius (part 2)

Caeda's Prologue performance is way better than Sirius' earlygame performance;

I agree

the Wing Spear is much better against Lang than a forged Armorslayer;

A +3 Mt, +5 Hit Armourslayer forge (4000 gold) can do the following:

C6: Allow Sirius to ORKO Lang as a Paladin (with RP usage) -> this allows Caeda to just ORKO the one of the knights, and I think MU can go kill one of the Bishops (nice chunk of exp there also may drop a Mend? staff). You can sell the mend staff for I think 400. Not much but gold is gold.

C8: Allows Hero!Sirius and/or Myrm!Luke to ORKO Generals, including that Armscroll General, DK!MU can pick off a sniper or something.

C15: Maturity Drop Marth can ORKO the General in Est’s prison, nice exp for Martht there.

C16: Mentioned this before; Marth can ORKO the General in the throne room and get danced to seize. Allows you to acquire another Fortify staff with a high MOV combat unit. Can sell for 1500 gold OR (this is the more likely scenario) you can stop caring about Fortify usage.

C18: Someone can use it to ORKO a General, maybe you can trade chain it.

C20: Someone can use it to ORKO the General in the treasure room.

Caeda doesn’t ORKO without an unforged Wing Spear, Sirius IS NOT the reason for this forge. The reason is actually C16’s Fortify staff. He just benefits from it. And the forge helps Sirius and MU (albeit indirectly) gain more exp.

Even if you don’t make this forge, you can always do what dondon151 did, Horseman!Sirius gets fed the kill using the 13 Mt (total) bow forge after Caeda attacks Lang.

Caeda's support with Marth dramatically increases reliability of the final clear, thus cutting expected turn-count;

And why are we forgetting a trained Sirius (or Minerva) also helps to increase reliability of the final clear? I think PKL stated we aren’t allowed to penalize people for recruitments.

Caeda's high Luck means that she won't get crit-blicked, in contrast to Sirius;

How many rounds of combat do non-MU units go through in between save points for this to frustrate a player? He has 4 base LUK, with 60% growth and has access to LUK shards and Luck Bonds. He’s only facing noticeable-to-slightly-uncomfortable crit rates vs ice dragons and enemies wielding weapons with innate critical chance. But so is Palla. This issue is heavily mitigated. In fact, there are certain instances where having a unit that is able to draw enemies with low LUK is a good thing, look at C21 of your H4 efficiency play log thread. You used Luke to draw in to wyrms, which happened because enemies had critical chance on him.

her hit rate is generally better as a consequence of her high Lck

He has higher base SKL, she has better growths for LUK and SKL. He’s using Silver Lances most of the time, she might have to use Steel. He gets +5 hit from A Lances, she doesn’t. Early game I think the hit rates are mostly negligible and later on he has enough skill that as long as he isn’t tossing javelins at axes he’s good. She sucks at tossing Javelins at axes too BTW. The only times I’ve ever really been annoyed by hit rates is C12 Boss, Caeda has like 5% or something displayed hit better than Sirius against this boss. But pretty much everyone has like 50-60% displayed hit against that boss with Dragonpikes. I just used the 2nd save point on turn 5 to force those hits. I’m not really sure what you are getting at about LUK significantly improving hit rates.

and better (slightly) support list.

She has Marth… who is almost never around her. Who cares? I’ll give you that she has a better chance to dodge dragons sometimes, due to her higher SPD and LUK.

The Mercurius is nice, but Luke can do the job just fine with Silver Swords. As for the dragon chapters, I don't think doubling the dragons is enough to put Sirius in the top tier; Luke, Ryan, Cecille, Draug, and Rody can double and ORKO just fine.

The fact is he has Mercurius (which sells for nothing or doesn’t sell at all), you can sell Silver Swords for gold… to buy stuff from C21 secret shop.

I’m not wanting to put Sirius in Top just because he can double dragons, all I did here was state he can double dragons (and ORKO dragons with effective weaponry) just like everyone else. I’m assuming Caeda is doing the same thing except she’s also not facing critical chances against ice dragons. Is that worth a tier gap?

Edit: I would also argue it is preferable to give Sirius exp as opposed to Caeda. This sounds like sandbagging but think about it. Caeda caps SPD and LUK very early on before she promotes. Once she promotes, she quickly caprams SPD again. Her HP growth isn't good, her STR growth is pathetic, and her DEF is only passable. Sirius on the other hand doesn't capram (except SPD/SKL as a Hero or SM, but even this takes time). His growths are much more evenly spread. Once Caeda caprams, all you see is like +HP/SKL/LUK level ups for the most part (she only has 60% HP growth btw, I'm being generous here). Sirius on the other hand has a growth total of 400 as a Hero (includes a 105 HP/70 STR/60 SPD/45 DEF growths). He has 385 as an SM with 95 HP/ 60 STR/70 SPD/40 DEF. Point is, Caeda doesn't change much in terms of performance throughout the game, Sirius does. Once endgame comes around and no one can double anymore, Caeda is really bad. Sirius can be good, if you bothered to level him up reasonably.

Re: Minerva and Linde.

Whoa… was Linde moved or something? I think she deserves to be above Draug for sure. I mean, Horseman!Draug only has 60% HP growth, no base sword or bow rank.

Minerva will never double anything as a DK, so Hauteclere is really only good for OHKOing mages in 2 chapters (C10 and C15 if she is being trained) and chip damage. Her growths are not good. She fits the description of Upper Mid better than High. She’s actually comparable to Leiden. I think he has her beat in offense with Lances and has more HP, but she has more LUK and DEF.

Edited September 17, 2013 by commonguard

[eclipse]

Getting to Rickard on Chapter 6 (which I think is the closest he'll be to shining) means that Julian needs to run towards the southern room, instead of beelining towards the shard. I think this is also the only chapter ever where having two thieves isn't overkill. In just about every other chapter, I think there's need for one, at best (and nothing short of insane babying will turn Julian into anything worth using, and this is H1 experience talking). I think BOTH of them are a tier too high.

My problem with the lowest tier is that you've got people that technically don't affect turn counts negatively in there. I think amending the definition to include units that auto-join and contribute minimally in their join chapter would work.

[commonguard]

Standard C6 strategy is to have Marth go for the 2 chests and be rescued on turn 6 for a 6 turn clear. Julian is just fielded to recruit Rickard on this map instead of C5, in addition to getting the 10K bullion.

Edit: I made an edit to the post I made before this. It's in the spoilers of About Sirius (part 2).

Edited September 17, 2013 by commonguard

[PKL]

About Sirius

His exp gain wasn’t overlooked, it’s actually the reason why I said to give him boss exp.

When are these two ever in a position to get the boss kill in C5-C10x?

Obvious reasons being so she cannot gain STR? Honestly, I try to get her to cap SPD as a cavalier ASAP, get her an arena level as an archer so she can cheat the SPD cap and promote and not be useless while continuing to grow.

Palla needs boss kills to get 6 levels before a promotion for C8? (That’s when I promote her and I usually just give her the C3 boss kill and that’s it.) Catria is usually promoted to FK, she’s got ages to get to level 15-17 or w/e for her promotion.

He gets even less from unpromoted units. You know denying Sirius exp is sandbagging right?

He needs 15 SPD before the RP. How hard is the sandbagging that he can’t gain 3 levels as a DK in five maps especially when he is one of the units who has easy access to hit the boss? It’s not like we need 3 different people to drop the boss’s health to a single digit so Sirius can swoop in and steal the kill. He does a good chunk of the damage for it not to be considered favouritism when he gets the kill. 3 levels and on average he has 15 SPD as a DK. Even if he doesn’t, he can be fielded as a Sniper and borrow that expensive ass bow forge we like to make and pick off a DK and get some of the exp he was being denied earlier.

It’s the same benchmark as C9… and experience so a unit can level up and remain useful is now favouritism? He doesn’t need the Speedwing FYI.

It is certainly possible to get Sirius to level 13 before going into C15, simply by giving him most of the boss kills before the dragon chapters and letting him go ORKO a bunch of dragons as a Hero or an SM. It is really mindless actually. A likely bad case scenario, he needs a Speedwing and RP to double as a Hero, or he needs a +1 wyrmslayer forge (my god the expense) to ORKO as an SM.

A level 13 Sirius with 6 levels as a DK, 3 levels as an SM and 3 levels as a Hero has 25 SPD as a Hero and 27 as an SM. You mean to tell me you think a 25 SPD Hero or 27 SPD SM is useless?

Why can’t Sirius join the cool kids and be in Top tier? He contributes enough early game, he’s doing solid work in dragon chapters. He’s holding his own in mid game and he isn’t worthless in late. He requires an Angelic Robe, Energy Drop, and possibly a Speedwing (but probably not). 2-3 Statboosters. How many does Caeda need? Angelic Robe and 2 Energy drops. So same amount, why is he not in the same tier as Caeda?

You do realize all that is favoritism , right? Honestly I'm still not convinced Sirius is anything special. Certainly not comparable to Caeda. Caeda is the best Prologue unit aside from Avatar. Her support with Marth is clutch to make him crit Medeus. She's great in the Dragon Valley, actually being a flier that can double and ORKO Fire Dragons if trained properly. Sirius has to be a Swordmaster to match this, which has the sad drawback of not flying. And then she's just plain better too, being the best unit to tackle C15, 18 and 19 bosses. I don't think they're even comparable. You're underestimating Sirius's lck issues too. He affects reliability in the Dragon Valley everytime he enters combat, period. I will put him back in Top Tier though, because he IS always part of the core team in LTC, even if he does require resources to keep going. Caeda doesn't require anything to perform her given tasks btw. Except perhaps the Angelic Robe.

About Marth

The more I think about this, the more I think Marth isn't deserving of a position anywhere near Top.

On the one hand we have Marth's ability to seize, accurately put by Redwall as "literally mandatory". On the other hand we have Marth's ability to kill Medeus which I would say is practically mandatory. (If someone knows of a reliable, cost-effective way to kill Medeus without Marth, I'm all ears.)

What is the difference between literally mandatory and practically mandatory other than a meaningless technicality?

It is for the reason of killing Medeus that we give Marth all the favouritism, stat-boosters and babying in the world. No other unit gets this kind of consideration. Apparently Sirius can't get exp fast enough because giving him boss kills and exp in general is favouritism. But Marth gets away rape, murder and grand larceny to boot. No one bats an eye.

Stop it with the silly Marth arguments. If it continues I'll just untier marth. The fact is, he's in the core of any team in Lunatic LTC.

Belf/Leiden > Gordin (he has bad growths for long term use) and I usually just pick archers based on specific STR value so they combo nicely with another unit for a kill on DKs in C3. Past C3 I don’t see Gordin being fielded.

Yeah.

Arran > Minerva. But Minerva I think is still better than Draug, Cecille and Rody. No training required, C Lances and Hauteclere utility.

I don't agree at all at Minerva being better than Draug, Cecille or Rody. Especially Draug. Her Hauteclere utility is pretty limited honestly and her C lances doesn't really help clears as much as we want in the Dragon Valley because of her abysmal spd.

Katarina > Wendell. I’ve never needed to field Wendell, and his staff rank isn’t as useful as Katarina’s. Katarina can also be useful as a long-shot Gharnef slayer option. (She has nice SPD base +growth and nice MAG base as well.)

I kinda agree. But we'd have to explore this in more detail. Wendell may not be much of a longterm unit, but with the right shard combinations, he can pull off Etzel's C11. And he has enough staff rank that he can get Physic after like 8 swings as a Bishop. Katarina is in a weird situation. She does join with Physic and Aura available to her, so she can be trained, but she just joins so underleveled...

Michalis can be fixed up to be decent with a lot of Goddess Icons. He’s got good bases. Just his LUK really. Maybe to Upper Low tier? If you give him the Icons, he may not be detrimental to turn counts.

True. I do remember the lategame enemies sporting a lot of crit though...So he'd require a lot of Icons.

Quote. Your arguments give me a headache tbh.

I think Belf/Leiden are in the wrong tier entirely- they're probably more comparable to Darros rather than anything else.

Absolute bases

Belf HP: 17 Str: 9 Skl:13 Spd: 6 Lck: 8 Def:5 Res:0

Leiden HP: 16 Str: 7 Skl: 12 Spd: 9 Lck: 10 Def: 4 Res: 1

Darros Hp: 17 Str: 9 Skl: 8 Spd: 6 Lck: 9 Def: 7 Res: 0

Darros is already promoted which saves us an Arms Scroll, but we can use Belf/Leiden's unpromoted state to get them some stats before promotion. Darros has axes which is cool, but they have Dragonpikes. I'd say Leiden>Darros>Belf personally, since Leiden's the only one who can double without a Wing.

I don't see why Wendell is so many tiers below Etzel personally- they do the same staff user stuff although Wendell does it for slightly longer. Etzel has a 4 Mag advantage at base (and 20% more growth), but I'm not sure how many times Wendell actually misses the Wyvern/Dracoknight KOs and Etzel hits it. Wendell is outclassed here, but they're largely swappable.

I also like Minerva better than Rody/Draug, but maybe that's just my aversion to reclassing units to classes where they have E weapon ranks. Arran is...tricky, although I'd say he only really has ~6 chapters of usefulness tops.

I agree that while Michalis has annoying Lck issues that seems easier to salvage than terrible units like Radd or Samto.

Wendell can definetely pull off Excalibur in C11 with the mag shards, which no one really contests. He's just such a bad longterm unit...I also don't think Wendell can ever pull off Gharnef. (Calling Redwall and his binomial goodness here) How likely is Etzel to meet his benchmark spd (22) considering Rainbow Pot and a decent level (he does get quite a lot of exp through staves and excaliburing) for Gharnef, anyway?

I agree with Leiden>Darros>Belf.

Arran is a weird situation. On one hand, he does help for a few chapters. But he's not really longterm, and no amount of statboosters will change that. So he's looking like he fits the Upper Mid Tier to me. But then...what would Minerva be? Is Minerva really better than him for her forced 2 chapters of contribution and her mediocrity for the rest of the game?

And yeah, even if Michalis has lck issues, he does seem better/easier to salvage than the other scrubs I put him with for some reason. I'm going to put him higher.

You quoted about Julian and Rickard's relative positions and said, something to the effect of Julian > Rickard and it is reflected on the tier list. I was pointing out that while the tier list does address the fact that Julian > RIckard, it is in accurate as to how much by using the relative placement of Nagi and Tiki and the fact that Rickard was between those two in addition to Rickard being two full tiers below Julian. I should probably try to be formal though, seeing how this is a tier list. My apologies. I will also use strikethroughs when I am joking. Also, apparently Julian's combat was taken into consideration. 14 SPD was mentioned as pro for him. I mean I guess it's there, Armscroll for Devil Sword? If someone was serious about using Julian I guess he could be viable for a time.

How exactly is this done? As I understand it, for rigging a critical (40%) on say two turns after a save point is used. I believe this would just add 3 turns to the expected turn count. 2 (turns after save point) times 1 over 0.4, then subtract the original 2 turns it would have taken without the critical? Do expected turn counts penalize needing stat-blessed units in a very precise manner? I'm assuming it is at the very least complicated.

I've run into issues where Etzel was only borderline KOing wyrms, although in that playthrough I was fielding Linde instead of Etzel so I know if he doesn't run into those issues normally. Either way, 4 MAG is a pretty significant gap. It takes Etzel 10 levels to get 4 MAG and it takes Wendell 20 levels. Basically, Wendell on average won't even have base Etzel MAG. Etzel also has better durability (winning in both HP and DEF), although in some cases this could turn out to be a bad thing when you want a mage to tank a ballista hit.

I've never had an issue with Etzel not having enough mag to KO fliers. And wow, you're right, it takes Wendell 20 levels to get to Etzel's base mag :/. The last point is not true always. The mage needs to have enough durability to tank the ballista hit in the first place I think Etzel's def is still low enough to attract ballista to him but not get KO'd.

Caeda's Prologue performance is way better than Sirius' earlygame performance; the Wing Spear is much better against Lang than a forged Armorslayer; Caeda's support with Marth dramatically increases reliability of the final clear, thus cutting expected turn-count; Caeda's high Luck means that she won't get crit-blicked, in contrast to Sirius; her hit rate is generally better as a consequence of her high Lck and better (slightly) support list.

The Mercurius is nice, but Luke can do the job just fine with Silver Swords. As for the dragon chapters, I don't think doubling the dragons is enough to put Sirius in the top tier; Luke, Ryan, Cecille, Draug, and Rody can double and ORKO just fine.

I think Linde should move above Minerva. As short-term no-investment units, Linde can nuke C3 Dracoknights, C3x Knights, finish off C4 Fighters, and nuke C5 Snipers, while Minerva can OHKO Mages in C10 and fetch the Elysian Whip in the desert. As a long-term unit,

Linde doubles Kleine in 13x as a Swordmaster and deals a ton of damage with Levin Swords, which is nifty. In C21, she either ORKOs Berserkers (if given Spirit Dusts, which no one else needs anyway) or weakens them enough for Marth or Sirius to finish. Also, she can use about ten-ish Nosferatu uses before promotion to go for a decent arena streak.

Minerva's not really doing that much; she has a hard time staying afloat since IIRC she can't ORKO Ice Dragons with a +1-Mt Wyrmslayer, and since her per-level growths are low compared to (say) Sirius'. The boosters Minerva needs are I think more contested than Linde's. Linde needs the Seraph Robe and five Spirit Dusts (three of them store-bought)--she won't need a Speedwing for C15 if she Nosferatus through the arena)--while Minerva needs at least an Energy Drop and a Speedwing.

Agreed on the first point about Caeda vs Sirius.

And as for Linde vs Minerva. I am starting to think she might be better. But I'm not sure. I'll think about it some more.

About Sirius (part 2)

I agree

A +3 Mt, +5 Hit Armourslayer forge (4000 gold) can do the following:

C6: Allow Sirius to ORKO Lang as a Paladin (with RP usage) -> this allows Caeda to just ORKO the one of the knights, and I think MU can go kill one of the Bishops (nice chunk of exp there also may drop a Mend? staff). You can sell the mend staff for I think 400. Not much but gold is gold.

With his weapon triangle disadvantaged hitrate? Caeda is sporting 77 hit whenever I do the chapter. I imagine swords vs lances on a throne isnt something reliable at all.

C8: Allows Hero!Sirius and/or Myrm!Luke to ORKO Generals, including that Armscroll General, DK!MU can pick off a sniper or something.

Caeda can do this too.

C15: Maturity Drop Marth can ORKO the General in Est’s prison, nice exp for Marth there.

C16: Mentioned this before; Marth can ORKO the General in the throne room and get danced to seize. Allows you to acquire another Fortify staff with a high MOV combat unit. Can sell for 1500 gold OR (this is the more likely scenario) you can stop caring about Fortify usage.

C18: Someone can use it to ORKO a General, maybe you can trade chain it.

Wing Spear is still more reliable considering her better skl lck and weapon neutrality.

C20: Someone can use it to ORKO the General in the treasure room.

Caeda doesn’t ORKO without an unforged Wing Spear, Sirius IS NOT the reason for this forge. The reason is actually C16’s Fortify staff. He just benefits from it. And the forge helps Sirius and MU (albeit indirectly) gain more exp.

Even if you don’t make this forge, you can always do what dondon151 did, Horseman!Sirius gets fed the kill using the 13 Mt (total) bow forge after Caeda attacks Lang.

The thing with this strat is that you're just doing it to feed Sirius a kill while dramatically decreasing reliability. That does not bode well for Sirius at all. His hitrate with the Steel Bow forge is pretty bad.

And why are we forgetting a trained Sirius (or Minerva) also helps to increase reliability of the final clear? I think PKL stated we aren’t allowed to penalize people for recruitments.

We aren't. It's a point in their favor.

How many rounds of combat do non-MU units go through in between save points for this to frustrate a player? He has 4 base LUK, with 60% growth and has access to LUK shards and Luck Bonds. He’s only facing noticeable-to-slightly-uncomfortable crit rates vs ice dragons and enemies wielding weapons with innate critical chance. But so is Palla. This issue is heavily mitigated. In fact, there are certain instances where having a unit that is able to draw enemies with low LUK is a good thing, look at C21 of your H4 efficiency play log thread. You used Luke to draw in to wyrms, which happened because enemies had critical chance on him.

Him needing the Lck boosting shards takes them away from one of our better combat units (that actually doubles Ice Dragons unlike him) Palla. And people like Leiden, etc. that can actually escape crit chances altogether with them. He's a liability in those maps tbh. Palla has a 9 lck base, with around 14 levels by then, with a 20 growth. Even if she's at her base, an RP and the Shards she has 15 lck total. I would like to know if Sirius can even mitigate the chance to get crit at all, reliably. In my experience, it's a no, far from it.

He has higher base SKL, she has better growths for LUK and SKL. He’s using Silver Lances most of the time, she might have to use Steel. He gets +5 hit from A Lances, she doesn’t. Early game I think the hit rates are mostly negligible and later on he has enough skill that as long as he isn’t tossing javelins at axes he’s good. She sucks at tossing Javelins at axes too BTW. The only times I’ve ever really been annoyed by hit rates is C12 Boss, Caeda has like 5% or something displayed hit better than Sirius against this boss. But pretty much everyone has like 50-60% displayed hit against that boss with Dragonpikes. I just used the 2nd save point on turn 5 to force those hits. I’m not really sure what you are getting at about LUK significantly improving hit rates.

I think the point was that she's a lot better at bosskilling reliably than Sirius.

She has Marth… who is almost never around her. Who cares? I’ll give you that she has a better chance to dodge dragons sometimes, due to her higher SPD and LUK.

The fact is he has Mercurius (which sells for nothing or doesn’t sell at all), you can sell Silver Swords for gold… to buy stuff from C21 secret shop.

I’m not wanting to put Sirius in Top just because he can double dragons, all I did here was state he can double dragons (and ORKO dragons with effective weaponry) just like everyone else. I’m assuming Caeda is doing the same thing except she’s also not facing critical chances against ice dragons. Is that worth a tier gap?

The tier gap is much more than that. She has Prologue, where she's the undoubted second MVP. She has reliable bosskilling. Can actually double as a flier in the Dragonvalley. Gives Marth more chance to blick Medeus in endgame.

Edit: I would also argue it is preferable to give Sirius exp as opposed to Caeda. This sounds like sandbagging but think about it. Caeda caps SPD and LUK very early on before she promotes. Once she promotes, she quickly caprams SPD again. Her HP growth isn't good, her STR growth is pathetic, and her DEF is only passable. Sirius on the other hand doesn't capram (except SPD/SKL as a Hero or SM, but even this takes time). His growths are much more evenly spread. Once Caeda caprams, all you see is like +HP/SKL/LUK level ups for the most part (she only has 60% HP growth btw, I'm being generous here). Sirius on the other hand has a growth total of 400 as a Hero (includes a 105 HP/70 STR/60 SPD/45 DEF growths). He has 385 as an SM with 95 HP/ 60 STR/70 SPD/40 DEF. Point is, Caeda doesn't change much in terms of performance throughout the game, Sirius does. Once endgame comes around and no one can double anymore, Caeda is really bad. Sirius can be good, if you bothered to level him up reasonably.

I'm not gonna bother with that >_>. You sandbagged Caeda so hard. Sure, a few levels of no str def are bound to happen, but come on.

Re: Minerva and Linde.

Whoa… was Linde moved or something? I think she deserves to be above Draug for sure. I mean, Horseman!Draug only has 60% HP growth, no base sword or bow rank.

Minerva will never double anything as a DK, so Hauteclere is really only good for OHKOing mages in 2 chapters (C10 and C15 if she is being trained) and chip damage. Her growths are not good. She fits the description of Upper Mid better than High. She’s actually comparable to Leiden. I think he has her beat in offense with Lances and has more HP, but she has more LUK and DEF.

Wait, so you thought Rody/Draug were worse than Minerva, but now say she's deserving of Upper Mid?

And no, Linde doesn't deserve to be above Draug >_>. Just...no.

Getting to Rickard on Chapter 6 (which I think is the closest he'll be to shining) means that Julian needs to run towards the southern room, instead of beelining towards the shard. I think this is also the only chapter ever where having two thieves isn't overkill. In just about every other chapter, I think there's need for one, at best (and nothing short of insane babying will turn Julian into anything worth using, and this is H1 experience talking). I think BOTH of them are a tier too high.

My problem with the lowest tier is that you've got people that technically don't affect turn counts negatively in there. I think amending the definition to include units that auto-join and contribute minimally in their join chapter would work.

They both have the same utility, yes, But Julian pulls it off a lot better. Julian can get the C6 bullion just fine by himself. Rickard requires a really complicated recruitment in C5 as well as a Rainbow Potion use to even open the door he's supposed to be in. If he's already in the door, he can get shared credit for the bullion or something. And then he's never heard from again. Julian is more likely to be fielded for Lena and can be "decent" at combat if given an Arms Scroll. Rickard is unsalvageable at combat. I don't think Julian is a tier too high. He fits the whole "saves turns in a given situation" thing just fine. But Rickard could be way too low, considering that even if he's really scrubby, his thief utility is still thief utility afterwards. He can get the C9 chests just as well as Julian does. It's...complicated.

Edited September 18, 2013 by PKL

[Dark Sage]

I just want to point out that Michalis also has speed issues. He gets doubled at base as a Berserker by other Berserkers and Swordmasters, so he needs a speed proc or RP use or speedwing. Also his luck really is a huge problem. Having a 15-20% chance of death per round of combat is like the opposite of reliability.

He should still be at the same level as the other free silvers.