Fire Emblem 12 Another Lunatic Tier List

[Redwall]

Your oversimplified computation of expected turn count

I made an oversimplified example for the sake of clarity. I suppose I should also have mentioned that in the 75% of the time the plan in my example fails, Marth dies, forcing a restart from the chapter save.

leads me to believe you just have an aversion to using criticals and low percent hits after save points.

I rigged save-point crits semi-frequently in my playlog, for example in Chs. 22-24. I generally have no problem with using criticals and low-percent hits after save points. I simply believe that it's preferable to self-consistently account for reliability and turn-count simultaneously rather than treating them separately.

A real computation of expected turn counts (even if we aren’t bringing benchmarks into consideration) is far more laborious as you would have to account for every hit that is not guaranteed in addition to potential contingency options you may have in the event that misses did happen, possible AI targeting order in the event random level ups may alter them, etc.

I know that, which is why I'm not actually presenting exact calculations of turn-counts. That doesn't prevent me from using the concept as a general framework to obtain a rough idea of whether one decision is better than another.

I looked at the calculations page and noticed that the WTD penalty is only -10 displayed hit, validating the use of the Armorslayer forge against Lang; it's more reliable than going at him with the Wing Spear and bow forge, and less costly than using a Wing Spear forge. Nonetheless, this changes nothing about Sirius' relatively high dependence on dragon EXP when looking at his lategame performance.

And I was asking how expected turn counts were computed because I am unsure as to how a unit meeting benchmarks for certain strategies would be integrated into said computation. For ex. if a unit needs to double an enemy for the strategy to work, but the unit only has an 83% chance of reaching the doubling SPD before the chapter begins, what would be the numerical detriment to the expected turn count if you used the strategy?

In general we can say that in the 17% of instances where you can't double, then the clear transitions into a clear that takes (say) one turn longer on average. We can then compute a weighted average. Of course there are generally various contingencies that we can in principle account for in a similar fashion. But I don't think we need to get everything down to arbitrary precision to use expected turn-counts as a general framework.

There is nothing in the original post about expected turn counts; you have been the only person in this topic consistently mentioning them. For this reason, I am going by raw turn count assuming no unreliable (but still reasonable) sequences, hits or criticals are being used unless they are backed by a map save. Basically, I’m eyeballing the success rate of a chapter and only giving thought to notable hit rates.

1) This tier list assumes reliable LTC, so expected turn-count is not unreasonable as a general way of looking at units. 2) What is a "notable" hit rate?

I’ve been arguing against Caeda and even I don’t believe they are “more or less” in the same league.

Athena doubles Fighters with WTA and doesn't need to worry about getting OHKOed by Silver Axes, unlike Caeda. Caeda may be better, but let's not deny that both are really good in the Prologue.

I think you are putting too much weight to the prologue.

If I were, don't you think I'd argue for Athena moving up? I don't even know where she's ranked right now.

Units do what they are meant to here and not much more. There is no reclassing so units are better than other units simply because they are in certain classes and at that point we are really just arguing which classes better in the prologue.

So we agree: Caeda is great in the Prologue.

And there is no unit (including MU) that contributes heavily towards prologue chapters (except for possibly P-8) without a specific party composition.

The Avatar, Caeda, and Athena can contribute heavily in multiple team compositions. Just because the Avatar can't (say) solo the Prologue doesn't mean those contributions should be neglected.

Expected turn counts also deride more impressive clears with lower raw turn counts but used a map save crit to finish sooner.

PKL has stated that this list assumes reliable LTC, not necessarily impressive LTC.

So really [Luke] has 3 maps in the prologue, does very little in those maps and for the most part is interchangeable with Rody. [...]

So for C1-C3 Luke could be deployed and run into a corner where he won’t be targeted and we can complete the map just fine without him even if we are using him. Luke is just improving himself for his endgame here.

I wasn't suggesting Luke was necessary in those stages, only that he could be useful; we're not assuming that we always field the optimal team, though in the event we are, you'd be right that he is useless for shaving turns in those early maps.

With a reasonable amount of exp he has more options for odd [lategame] jobs than Palla does.

Not meaningful jobs; as we've discussed, Horseman Sirius with a Brave Sword does things that many other high-tier and top-tier units can do as a Swordmaster. And he's obviously not going to be the go-to Horseman; that's a job for Ryan or Luke.

And I can easily say you can deprive someone like Palla of exp and give them stat-boosters to do the same.

You're missing my point. With Palla, you actually have to go out of your way to deprive her of enough EXP to keep her going; not only does she have higher availability and enough Spd to cleanly ORKO enemies as a flier, but she also starts out as an unpromoted unit, allowing her to gain EXP much more quickly than Sirius until she promotes. The consequence of this EXP gain is that once her EXP gain per kill slows down to roughly that of Sirius', she'll have better stats and be less dependent on dragon kills.

All you’ve stated here is that the game is far too forgiving for mismanaging exp distribution in tandem with not maximizing exp gains among your party to the point that pretty much any unit when given stat-boosters can become competent members of your team. If this is not true, [sirius] must have been a pretty amazing unit already to become fully functional after just stat-boosters and very little exp.

I am not entirely sure what your point is here. That the game is more forgiving to Caeda, Catria, and Palla than to Sirius is basically the crux of the argument--their high EXP gain as unpromoted units means their stats are less sensitive to suboptimal decisions than Sirius' stats, allowing them to be dependent on dragon kills to a much smaller extent.

Is the second part of this quote referencing my playlog? Because I didn't manage to get him those stat-boosters until after Ch. 21, when the game was nearly over. Either way, I don't disagree Sirius is a good unit on the whole.

Edit 28/09/2013 3:02 pm. The metric is also exp not kills, so one level for Sirius should equate to one level for anyone else, unpromoted or not. BTW there are like 55-60 dragons in C11-C14.

EXP is relevant, but like I've been saying, thanks to his mediocre (for his seniority) personal bases, that Sirius must deal with promoted status for a longer time than Caeda, Catria, and Palla means his unusually high dependence on dragons must be accounted for in his tier-list position. For the purposes of this tier list, we can acknowledge that Sirius should receive priority for those dragon kills (since, assuming perfect play with the optimal team, this benefits the team the most) while penalizing him accordingly for needing those particular kills.

Sirius is more than capable of contributing effectively in the early game despite being destitute of exp. [...]

You mentioned that Sirius was not “core”. If he is not core where exactly is Palla “core”? C3 is a given due to her placement on the map, her assumed role can be done by Catria in C3x. I am sure if Sirius is not core to a map in C4-C9 then neither is Palla. I’m not sure what constitutes as “core” in your mind.

Now that I think about it, I suppose I'm fine with saying Palla and Sirius are qualitatively about as core (by which I mean their absence would harm the expected turn-count by a somewhat larger amount than would the absence of most other characters) as the other in the early chapters in which both are available, though I'd still give the edge to Palla due to doubling + higher availability.

Looking strictly at the mid-to-late game, I doubt Caeda actually needs the Seraph Robe and two Energy Drops to do her thing; I suspect she can get by with just one Energy Drop, a +1-Mt Wing Spear (1100 G is quite a bit less contested than, say, Sirius' Seraph Robe) for the Generals in Chs. 18-20, and a continuous Rainbow IV. I recall the Seraph Robe on Caeda being useful for distracting a Ballista in Ch. 18--though this would not have been necessary if I had used the Maturity Drop on Marth--and getting her some extra kills here and there, kills that probably would not have been necessary had I either been using the RP or forged the Wing Spear. Sirius, meanwhile, demands a Seraph Robe (without which he can't catch up), a +2-Mt Wyrmslayer forge (while this isn't a terribly expensive investment, it's still something to keep in mind; also, I think this saves an Energy Drop) and, of course, many dragon kills in the midgame; he may even need a Speedwing if he hasn't taken enough dragon kills.

Even if the optimal thing to do is to feed Sirius a disproportionate number of dragons (and I agree that it probably is), the fact remains that not only does there exist an opportunity cost to feeding him those kills, but you haven't presented any lategame contributions of Sirius' that are particularly good; he can ORKO Sorcerors as a Horseman with the Brave Sword, but many high-tier units can also ORKO those guys at the cost of one point of Mov. And while it is true that he can make lategame clears more robust when given EXP, let us not forget that Sirius' dependence on dragons means that he himself is not particularly robust (not so much from a mathematical standpoint as from a decision-making standpoint; earlygame he's fine without EXP, lategame we agree that he needs those midgame dragons much more so than other units).

[commonguard]

2) What is a "notable" hit rate?

Notable (C1-C3x) = sub 75 displayed hit. Notable (C4-Endgame) = sub 85. The difference is because early you are more or less forced to use Steel bows with low SKL archers and Javelins/Steel lances against units on forest tiles. I generally also take long sequences of sub-90 hit rates (like C3 DK shooting gallery) to be notable if saves are not used to back up the progress.

PKL has stated that this list assumes reliable LTC, not necessarily impressive LTC.

Can I assume we are not going for minimum reliable turn counts (which is what I meant by impressive turn counts)? Because then I’m pretty sure Sirius’ wider class selection allowing him to more seamlessly fit into multiple teams (including those without MU present) throughout maps (early and late) should be enough to put him well within the league of Top. Again, I’ve never been arguing for Sirius > Caeda or any combat unit in Top. Just Sirius is Top tier.

You're missing my point. With Palla, you actually have to go out of your way to deprive her of enough EXP to keep her going

It’s not as hard as you think, especially if MU is not promoted very early to shoulder much of the babying that units need; since it will then be between Palla and Sirius to do said babying, instead of getting kills/exp for themselves.

I am not entirely sure what your point is here. That the game is more forgiving to Caeda, Catria, and Palla than to Sirius is basically the crux of the argument--their high EXP gain as unpromoted units means their stats are less sensitive to suboptimal decisions than Sirius' stats, allowing them to be dependent on dragon kills to a much smaller extent.

Is the second part of this quote referencing my playlog?

My point is the game is just about as forgiving to say Catria not getting her early game DKs and Bishops as it is to Sirius missing his dragons; that is they can both be saved at some point.

As for sensitivity, Catria continually grows throughout early game; this is largely in part due to her getting a couple of early levels so she can become self-sufficient. Without this accelerated exp intake she is far less effective at everything, and may even need to be babied to reach a decent level before promotion. Granted Catria is not as dependent getting exp in a “tight” window, but she needs the early exp to contribute.

To clarify the second part, you made a post saying you could fix Sirius with stat-boosters for late game. I’m saying you can fix any Top tier unit with stat-boosters right after the dragon chapters. Your playlog more or less proves that Sirius can be saved with boosters for endgame. Considering the RP, Maturity drop, the C14 bullion and the remaining stat boosters in the base shop the assertion that any Top tier combat unit can be saved is a plausible one.

In general we can say that in the 17% of instances where you can't double, then the clear transitions into a clear that takes (say) one turn longer on average. We can then compute a weighted average.

And if the clear is flat out impossible (say because we need to kill every hostile enemy in the vicinity in order for units to survive another turn) without this doubling, there is no contingency plan. (This is essentially what I was asking, double the enemy with whatever odds or die… what’s the expected turn count? Or is the clear classified as a failed attempt?)

If I were, don't you think I'd argue for Athena moving up? I don't even know where she's ranked right now.

That doesn’t mean you aren’t weighing the prologue too heavily for Caeda. You could easily just not care much about Athena’s positioning, indicated by you not knowing where she is ranked, for a number of reasons including that she is almost never used in LTC/efficiency runs past the prologue. Caeda on the other hand is a good unit, and she also has the prologue that no one else has so it becomes an obvious highlight to giving her a home in Top that no other unit (besides MU) can contest because they are not there.

Also, you’ve made arguments about Sirius not being “core” to that many maps; this argument can be more immediately applied to Etzel yet you’ve taken no action to have him dropped out of Top so again, you might not care about the placement of certain units.

let us not forget that Sirius' dependence on dragons means that he himself is not particularly robust

Sirius’ dependence sprouts from the very likely scenario that he will be given very little exp (usually because he sets kills for others, many of which he can get for himself) prior to the dragons. If he’s given adequate exp going into the dragon chapters, realistically he would only need 2-3 dragons (of which there are 55-60) more than other combat units so that he could reach --/11. Would you agree that if Catria and Palla can reach 16/7 then it is perfectly reasonable for Sirius to reach --/11?

you haven't presented any lategame contributions of Sirius' that are particularly good; he can ORKO Sorcerors as a Horseman with the Brave Sword, but many high-tier units can also ORKO those guys at the cost of one point of Mov.

Okay, I kept mentioning Horseman because I actually did use him as my go-to Horseman. He can ORKO Sorcerers with the Brave sword as a Paladin as well. He can use Dragonpikes (including that +3 Mt forge) for enough damage for almost anyone to pick off in one shot (useful considering not everyone can go back to back rounds with just one heal in between), he has 2 move over everyone else and he has RES so he probably can fight Mage dragons and Sorcerers back to back with only one heal in between. He can even crit the boss with Gradivus. This is rare and only possible with some MU choices. Since we aren’t assuming the most optimal party, this sort of robust unit would fit well anywhere even suboptimal parties.

If he is leveled up enough he can cleanly ORKO berserkers in C20x-C21 with Mercurius/Brave sword as a SM. Linde needs a boatload of Dusts to do this, Luke needs to be a dedicated sword user to get his hands on Mercurius (but he could probably do it with the Brave sword) and I’m pretty sure max STR SMs with Silver can’t even ORKO these guys.

[Bluedoom]

Frey should go to the top of Lower-Mid IMO because he isn't doing much untill promotion and even on promotion he's hitting what, 13 SPD tops(as a Paladin)? Don't really think Dragonpike usage would be feasible when he's getting doubled by flying dragons. He can avoid this with RP(and some shard/growths), but I don't think that Dragonpike chip would be really great compared to like, Athena's prologue usefulness or Jeorge's Parthia shenanigans(or silver bow + RP I guess). Not sure on Frey vs Gordin, the latter has availability and more time to grow but worse growths and doesn't have any key contributions.

In a Malicia-less world Yumina would be close to Malicia IMO but without hammerne (which would then cut turns from C5 automatically). Think she'd be fine if she stayed in high, maybe higher than Arran? I don't see why Arran's 3 chapters of greatness would be better than a great healer throughout the game?

I'm also not convinced that Minerva> Ogma. Just like Minerva kills the mages in C10 with the hauteclere, Ogma contributes a lot in P-7 and P-8. Not to mention he has availability from C-4 onwards so he's getting kills during those chapters too(good thing he has armourslayer access). 10/1 Ogma(and this is probably below average if you used him in prologue) has better stats than Minerva and since he has a good sword rank he's stuck to Swordmaster so he'll always be better in the spd department. I could see him at the top of Upper-mid/Bottom of High.

I think Sirius is fine where he is right now.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Bluedoom

[Redwall]

Expected turn-count: if a Game Over occurs, the turn-count penalty is reflected in the number of turns spent on average, including successful and unsuccessful attempts. So a one-turn clear which has a 25% chance of succeeding and a 75% chance of forcing a reset (and a redo of the first turn) would have an expected turn-count of four, from how I think of it.

On Sirius: if PKL relaxes the tiering criteria a bit, I would be fine with moving Sirius and Luke up.

Etzel should go down, yeah.

[commonguard]

Yea, I agree about Ogma being better than Minerva. Hauteclere usage is nice but it's really only for a few (but probably just one) chapters. Ogma with RP and (even unforged) armourslayer is pretty beastly in C5-C6x and RP!Ogma is pretty clutch in C4. I'm assuming it's fair to assume Upper mid units will not get full time deployment and their merit should show from base stats and weapon ranks alone.

I won't argue against Luke moving into Top.

[PKL]

Hmm...I'll probably move Sirius and Luke to Top next. Sorry for my silence, but I wanted to see how Redwall vs commonguard went and I didnt really have anything to contribute that wasn't said. I'm not sure on Ogma vs Minerva. Ogma is indeed pretty cool for the Prologue, for C4 and he can go to town with an Armorslayer in some chapters. Pretty useful unit, has more availability than her...actually, what am I thinking. Yeah he's better than her for sure.

[Dark Sage]

The nice thing about Ogma is he can basically replace Luke if needed, especially for chapter 6, though he's definitely worse. It's a particularly useful trait if you want to train Rody instead of Luke.

[Bluedoom]

@commonguard: If that's the criteria we're assuming for Upper Mid and High, then Arran should be moved to Upper Mid and Yumina and Ogma should be moved to High, since Arran's useless past C3.

I personally think Ogma should be raised to high, but probably not higher than Linde I suppose. Don't know where he'd fit in high, but I do know that he's almost as good as Luke. Lvl 7 Luke would be slightly more offensive and less defensive than base Ogma on average. Luke has SLIGHTLY higher growths but it doesn't make too much of a difference(really the +10 DEF growth is negligible when Ogma has higher base HP, and +10 SPD is probably the only noticeable thing here), he's only in(or gonna be in) top because of his availability frankly.

IMO:

-Arran drops to top of Upper Mid. He's still more useful than Minerva IMO.

- Yumina and Ogma raise to high. Linde might be>Yumina, but Ogma vs Draug/Rody/Cecil would be interesting to watch. Depends on what level we're assuming Draug/Rody/Cecil to be at, and how their lategame would compare to Ogma's.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Bluedoom

[commonguard]

@commonguard: If that's the criteria we're assuming for Upper Mid and High, then Arran should be moved to Upper Mid and Yumina and Ogma should be moved to High, since Arran's useless past C3.

I personally think Ogma should be raised to high, but probably not higher than Linde I suppose. Don't know where he'd fit in high, but I do know that he's almost as good as Luke. Lvl 7 Luke would be slightly more offensive and less defensive than base Ogma on average. Luke has SLIGHTLY higher growths but it doesn't make too much of a difference(really the +10 DEF growth is negligible when Ogma has higher base HP, and +10 SPD is probably the only noticeable thing here), he's only in(or gonna be in) top because of his availability frankly.

I think I made a post saying Arran should move to Upper mid or Top because he didn't fit the description for High. Still I think he is useful up to and including C7.

Not sure how my assumptions should put Yumina in High. She'll never replace Malicia; Malicia and Yumina both need 60 staff uses to get to A rank for Foritfy in C14. Malicia (thanks to the C3 spam-fest) meets this very easily, while Yumina won't hit A in time for Fortify use (without a promotion). (I don't know that for a fact but if she does hit A without detriment to turncount, it's unnervingly tight and would require the player to be diligent about maximizing staff spams and Feena dancing.) IMO Yumina is just a back up physic user for early and then forgotten about.

I don't think Ogma is anywhere near Luke's level, certainly not when you consider potential weapon ranks; with the player being diligent Luke can have C swords/D bows by the start of C8. Ogma won't even hit D bows by the start of C9, and he'll have lower offense (like maybe 3 STR shy of OHKOing DKs with a 13-Mt bow).

That being said though he is probably good enough to move into high maybe even above Draug? He can kill Cain (3-turn guaranteed with Ogma, Athena, Caeda) in P-7 and thieves in P-8 so he could rejoin your party at level 9.5-10.5ish, which is pretty much where Draug/Rody will be. Ryan should be slightly higher. Compared to Draug/Rody/Ryan, Ogma will lose in bow rank (more severely against Ryan). On the other hand he may be able to double dragons as a horseman for better offensive growths than the other non-Luke horseman who would have to be SMs for wyrmslayer access. Unlike Rody and Ryan he doesn't give support to MU and he doesn't receive support from Marth either, so some crit-related stuff is less reliable. He does receive support from Caeda though. Don't know if this matters much.

I've always seen Ogma as a temporary option for some maps and nothing more since I value bow rank a lot more than sword rank but he probably could do well as a permanent unit.

While on the topic of horseman, can someone explain why Draug>Rody? Potential wise Rody is way better isn't he?

Edited October 12, 2013 by commonguard

[PKL]

Good point you bring up. It could be tested. I personally wouldn't know what to say to that since I have almost 0 exp using Rody as a lategame Horseman candidate. His growth spread and everything tells me he should be able to pull it off in theory, but would require more babying than Draug possibly?

[Bluedoom]

I'm not sure about Yumina since I haven't used her in a Lunatic playthrough, but I don't think she's so short-term that she should be in Upper-Mid?

The point I was trying to make is since Ogma will have similar offense to Luke, and he doesn't need to be babied/fed exp, he should be in high since he's useful off the bat. I do think Luke and Ryan>Ogma.

IMO bow ranks don't matter much if you're going horseman at like, C9 because Horseman gives you Steel bow access and that's all you'd need. That said, Rody/Ogma will have similar offenses at 10/1 as a horseman. They'd probably differ by a str or a spd point. The major difference here is Rody's SPD, which would obvsly surpass Ogma's in due course of time.

Ogma wrecks Draug in terms of durability and Str, and is even better in prologue, so i can see Ogma>Draug.

Ogma vs Rody would be interesting. Ogma is surely better than Rody in prologue(being stuck with bad bases and better lance rank doesn't help his case). At Ogma's join-time in the main story they'll have similar offense stat-wise, but Ogma will want to be mercenary uptil C8, so he'll be doubling more and his offense will be better. At promo time(assuming C9), Ogma will have the better sword rank while Rody will have the better bow rank, but both of their offenses are almost identical as a horseman. However Ogma pulls SM better than Rody and pulling off the wyrmslayer would be better than just using bows when we go through Anri's Way. However Rody in due time will surpass Ogma's Spd, which is obvsly nice, but it won't be seen until lategame.

Basically, its good earlygame(Ogma) vs good lategame(Rody) but we're mostly talking about Spd here.

[commonguard]

C9 isn't really when you should promote your horseman. I mentioned C9 because that's kind of an important point where you want people who are going to be horseman to have D bows by as a hunter to wield a forged Steel bow instead of Iron. And if Ogma want's better offense he should just become a hunter unless he can't get exp as a hunter. Hunter has better offensive growth than the merc does.

You don't really have to try to convince me Ogma could be better than Rody. I said Ogma could be placed above Draug knowing that Draug was above Rody.

[Xator Nova]

Why is Malicia ranked so high?

Don't get me wrong, I am not questioning her placement. I'm just interested in the whole reasoning behind it.

[PKL]

Why is Malicia ranked so high?

Don't get me wrong, I am not questioning her placement. I'm just interested in the whole reasoning behind it.

Mostly because of her exclusive access to Hammerne, which allows the repair of Again and/or Rescue to save a bunch of turns that wouldn't be possible to save otherwise. This is a tier list that cares about turns and she saves the most turns out of everyone in the cast. Aside from Hammerne, she also has a great Staff rank and joins early.

[Vorena]

I think these things need a strict hierarchy of what is most valuable for arguments. The last comment from the pickle makes me think that clearly turns saved is highest priority. With something a simple as giving me a recruitment to have lower priority for example.

[eclipse]

Erm. . .

Read the first post and the spoilers

That is the criteria used to tier characters. I'll be happy if this topic DIDN'T become an argument on how to tier units.

Edited January 1, 2014 by eclipse

[Xator Nova]

After reading a lot and studying both of them, I'd like to give my two cents to the Malicia vs. My Unit thing...

The discussion can focus on these three questions.

1.- Is it actually possible to beat Lunatic without one of them (sans the prologue)? If so, then which run would be harder?
2.- Which unit makes efficiency runs easier or allows more reliable strategies?

3.- Which unit saves more turns?

Question 1, it's really hard for me to guess. I suppose that having an overleveled juggernaut in Chapter 1 makes the game far easier.. However, not having a staff user in the first chapters must be hell.

Question 2, I believe Malicia wins this one. Staff utility isn't dependant on combat parameters, which means that she requires no resources to be good, while access to Hammerne, Again, Fortify and Rescue are pivotal for efficient playthrough.

Plus, I've read in the other thread that Malicia can reclass to Sage and confront Gharnef, and she's the most reliable unit to do that. In fact, with Starlight, Sage!Malicia 4HKO's Gharnef at Lv20/11... something no other unit except a completely magic-focused My Unit can do... which means that she has the possibility of actual offensive potential. Not excellent potential, but more than acceptable for a staffbot.

Question 3 has already been answered. Malicia saves more turns.

In conclusion, I personally vote for Malicia above My Unit. However, I'm interested in the ideas of other people about the topic.

Sorry for grammar mistakes. English isn't my first language.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Isn't Malicia is about the only unit that can't be pefectly copied by MU, since you need MU for early game that Staffbots MU is just not viable?

Overall I would say Malicia make the game much easier because Hammene is just THAT good and the early game can be done by simple strats. Malicia make the late game simpler based on my experience with H1

Edited January 2, 2014 by JSND

[PKL]

Made a minor change to the tier list:

Sirius is now over Luke. Luke is more replaceable than Sirius. Both are highly capable units in LTC but Luke needs more resources than Sirius to do his job.

Stuff to discuss:

Draug vs Rody vs Ryan. Is Rody really a viable unit assuming a good Avatar? We all know Rody and Luke are better when you pick a bad Avatar like Mage or Archer, but assuming a normal Avatar that can 7 turn Prologue 8, is it really a good idea to lose 2 turns just so you can have a good Luke/Rody? Turns lost in the Prologue can never be recovered and they're definetely a trained Ryan-exclusive unless you rig all the crits. If Rody is used, he has no issues reaching Spd benchmarks even without Wings, has to eat 2 Arms Scrolls and possibly an Energy Drop, because he has slight str issues. He also only 9 turns Prologue 8. Draug is just not viable in Prologue, so he's like a trained Rody when he joins, with the same Arms Scroll stuff and more defensive issues. His good thing is that he's free. The player didn't need to get him exp in the Prologue so one can 7 turn prologue 8 with Ryan and use Draug well too unlike the other 2. Then there's Ryan, not needing Arms Scrolls, 7 turning Prologue 8 but having "needs 2 Speedwings" issues.

I also want to compare Linde vs Cecille and Sirius vs Etzel.

[Xator Nova]

Stuff to discuss:

Draug vs Rody vs Ryan. Is Rody really a viable unit assuming a good Avatar? We all know Rody and Luke are better when you pick a bad Avatar like Mage or Archer, but assuming a normal Avatar that can 7 turn Prologue 8, is it really a good idea to lose 2 turns just so you can have a good Luke/Rody? Turns lost in the Prologue can never be recovered and they're definetely a trained Ryan-exclusive unless you rig all the crits. If Rody is used, he has no issues reaching Spd benchmarks even without Wings, has to eat 2 Arms Scrolls and possibly an Energy Drop, because he has slight str issues. He also only 9 turns Prologue 8. Draug is just not viable in Prologue, so he's like a trained Rody when he joins, with the same Arms Scroll stuff and more defensive issues. His good thing is that he's free. The player didn't need to get him exp in the Prologue so one can 7 turn prologue 8 with Ryan and use Draug well too unlike the other 2. Then there's Ryan, not needing Arms Scrolls, 7 turning Prologue 8 but having "needs 2 Speedwings" issues.

I also want to compare Linde vs Cecille and Sirius vs Etzel.

From the way your describe it, it seems logical that:

-> Ryan is the best, because he actually contributes in Prologue (as far as I'm concerned, Prologue contributions are counted), has the least opportunity cost, allows you to use someone else, and the statboosters invested in him give excellent returns..

-> Draug is the second best because he doesn't requiere preference, but doesn't give back amazing returns.

-> Rody is the worst since he requires preference in form of turncounts in order to be superior to Draug, who is the second best.

[PKL]

From the way your describe it, it seems logical that:

-> Ryan is the best, because he actually contributes in Prologue (as far as I'm concerned, Prologue contributions are counted), has the least opportunity cost, allows you to use someone else, and the statboosters invested in him give excellent returns..

-> Draug is the second best because he doesn't requiere preference, but doesn't give back amazing returns.

-> Rody is the worst since he requires preference in form of turncounts in order to be superior to Draug, who is the second best.

Ryan requires preference in the form of exp too though and the speedwings are more contested than the arms scrolls. It's what makes comparing these 3 so complicated. Raw stats? Rody. Turns? Ryan. Cost? Draug. Each of them has an advantage. Maybe I should slash them together.

[Colonel M]

It is not a good idea to slash units together. Otherwise you could slash about half the units together and call it Free Silvers like SDS did. Not saying it is a bad idea to re-create Free Silvers, but mainly stating if youre going as far as slashing units you might as well go all the way.

[PKL]

6/15/2014:

Linde over Cecille and Arran.

Ryan over Draug and Rody.

Cecille and Arran lowered to Upper Mid Tier.

First one: Much like the rest of High Tier, Linde is capable of really big contributions in exchange for statboosters. Aura chipping, Nosferatanking, Physic usage, Nosferarescue and Levin Swordmaster combat are powerful indeed.

Second one: Draug has terrible defensive parameters and can't really be trained feasibly in the Prologue, starts with E in both swords and bows, which is a big deal when talking about being your main Horseman. Rody starts with -1 base def, E in both swords and bows, much like Draug and also has a bit of trouble gaining exp in an ideal Prologue. Ryan has the most time in the Prologue to train, starts with a nice bow rank and can use Arms Scrolls on his sword rank instead of bows because he reaches B and A on his own, allowing him to train even more. Unlike Rody and Draug and more like Luke, he needs speedwings and Rainbow Potion to meet some lategame spd benchmarks. Seems more useful overall though, especially when counting Prologue. Luke still above Ryan by request, though I feel Ryan might have the edge, barring spd benchmarks. Luke comes out of low turn Prologues (where he's not deployed in Prologue 7 and 8 because he gets in the way of a 3 and 7 turn respectively. He can also get in the way of Ogma's Prologue's lowest turncount but i'm not sure on that one.) at like Level 4 if trained and might get in the way of Prologue benchmarks. Though he IS more consistent overall with different Avatars. For example, Ryan isn't very good with a Fighter Avatar Prologue while he's a lot better in Cavalier. Luke is better with a Mage Avatar too.

Third one: Cecille is just a poor man's Catria, pretty much. She can be a decent Falcoknight with resources and that's it. Worse than Catria in every way. Arran is a weird unit to tier here, as he's very useful for like 5-6 maps and then he's not really fixable for the rest of the game even with boosters.

Some other stuff to discuss: Merric versus Navarre. Is Merric really better?

[PKL]

Something else I forgot: Etzel currently overrated in the tier list?

[-Cynthia-]

Being 'worse than Catria' doesn't seem like a good reason for lowering Cecile, who was already a full tier below Catria anyway. I suppose not being able to go Horseman is a lategame downside compared to the guys though.

On Etzel- a unit that can use Excalibur is highly useful for a number of chapters and a 2nd staff user is also quite welcome. I guess he could also work as a Gharnef killer but he might need a Wing. He's obviously better than the Excalibur competition (Merric and Wendell), but I suppose it really comes down to how decent Merric/Wendell are as alternatives.

Edited June 15, 2014 by -Cynthia-