FE7ifの作り手へ

[Tyty]

Okay seriously

Romhackers using sprites and not giving credit, news at 11.

[Party Moth]

I never said anyone should stop. But complaining about something you're doing is hypocrisy. Which is the whole discussion.

In my personal opinion... are they in the wrong? Yes. Are we in the wrong? Yes.

I smell hints of hypocrisy...

You never said anyone should stop. But it's certainly implied.

[Onmi]

I smell hints of hypocrisy...

You never said anyone should stop. But it's certainly implied.

No. We are in the wrong. Who cares? Isn't going to stop me, and it shouldn't stop anyone else. And for all those people thinking "Well if they don't listen to us we'll just steal from them" I don't think they'll give a fuck.

[Miacis]

Ooh, two things:

1. Change "theft" to "plagiarism" (that's SoC territory)

2. PM one of Vincent/SoC, and see if they can help you with this. Right now, your message isn't doing what it was intended to.

^ This. Even if the thread seems like it's just repeating itself now, at least let's not waste the opportunity to get the message down. I'll also suggest to add:

3. Be more accurate about what needs to be done about the current sprites. It's pretty clear you're asking them to ask for permission in the future, but it's not clear what the wronged artists want them to do right now with the current edited sprites. Should they be removed/credited? Can they stay, if a formal apology is given?

[TheWill]

I smell hints of hypocrisy...

You never said anyone should stop. But it's certainly implied.

Of course there are hints of hypocrisy, cause that's what the whole topic revolves around. Unless you're calling me a hypocrite? What I've been saying has hopefully not given that notion, but I apologize if it has.

You completely missed the mark if you think I'm promoting the idea to stop, because not only would I be trying to stop people doing something they enjoy and put effort into, but also something basically everyone does. Who hasn't downloaded something illegally? Music, games, movies? How we feel about downloading these things, the developers of FEif feel about the mugs they stolen, really. They don't care, just like how we care about Nintendo's feelings about the matter.

[Party Moth]

Of course there are hints of hypocrisy, cause that's what the whole topic revolves around. Unless you're calling me a hypocrite? What I've been saying has hopefully not given that notion, but I apologize if it has.

You completely missed the mark if you think I'm promoting the idea to stop, because not only would I be trying to stop people doing something they enjoy and put effort into, but also something basically everyone does. Who hasn't downloaded something illegally? Music, games, movies? How we feel about downloading these things, the developers of FEif feel about the mugs they stolen, really. They don't care, just like how we care about Nintendo's feelings about the matter.

I apologize that I have "completely missed the mark" then. It is simply that "right" and "wrong" are subjective from person to person, and to denounce something as undeniably "wrong" implies that one should stop doing it.

[Agro]

^ This. Even if the thread seems like it's just repeating itself now, at least let's not waste the opportunity to get the message down. I'll also suggest to add:

3. Be more accurate about what needs to be done about the current sprites. It's pretty clear you're asking them to ask for permission in the future, but it's not clear what the wronged artists want them to do right now with the current edited sprites. Should they be removed/credited? Can they stay, if a formal apology is given?

We just want to talk to them for now

Also, you all seem to be ignoring the fact that regardless of whether we're ROM hackers or not, art has been stolen. People like Blackavar and Vampire Elf never hacked ROMs--so it's not even "honour among thieves" in her case, it's just art theft.

Ooh, two things:

1. Change "theft" to "plagiarism" (that's SoC territory)

God clipsey, my Japanese isn't THAT bad.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Agro

[CT075]

i'm going to keep parroting this, but would i be mistaken in saying that anybody who thinks this is wrong/hypocrisy/whatever (slippery, whoever else) would be similarly unopposed to me just ripping all of fe7if's custom music and animations and posting them on this site?

because honestly i'm going to do it if there's no response by the time i get around to it

[Agro]

meh, it's not like any of it actually belongs to them

i'm sure all they did was get midis from VGMusic/directly ripped it from other games

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

Or somehow got to your MIDIs

[shadowofchaos]

I can't even figure out how to find the thread on 2ch ._.

http://kohada.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/gameurawaza/1379418627/l50

Good luck posting.

Be careful when clicking on links... while they have links to ROM hacking tools there... the site ads for said hosting sites might be NSFW.

They usually host the thread links to 2ch on the FE modding wiki:

http://wiki.livedoor.jp/fe_mars/d/FrontPage

(Not updated all the time though)

Edited September 19, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Miacis]

@SlipperySlippy: You do realize that your whole hypocrisy argument is based on a comparison between two completely opposite things?

On Legality:

- Hackers editing copyrighted works (or people downloading pirated works) is, in most countries, considered illegal.

- Hackers taking the non-protected works out of other hackers and using it as their own is legal.

And Rightness:

- Hackers editing the Fire Emblem engine/graphics/etc are stealing neither IS's sales, nor credit. Anyone will know that IS made the game itself and all its reused assets in other hacks. Most people (who know the difference between what's legal and what's right) consider this an all right thing to do.

- Hackers editing the works of others and claiming it as their own are effectively stealing the credit from them. Just like when you steal your office collegue's idea and get your promotion while he doesn't. Most people consider this to be a wrong thing to do.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Miacis

[Onmi]

i'm going to keep parroting this, but would i be mistaken in saying that anybody who thinks this is wrong/hypocrisy/whatever (slippery, whoever else) would be similarly unopposed to me just ripping all of fe7if's custom music and animations and posting them on this site?

because honestly i'm going to do it if there's no response by the time i get around to it

Just do it. While your at it, any edits to an engine someone has made for changing how weight or other calculations are done? rip and document that too. Hacking should be an open and resourceful thing to help everyone in the community be better, We should be about helping other people get into hacking and furthering our own understanding of what makes the games tick. That way we get no more of that ridiculous "Well this guy knew how to do this, but they aren't around anymore, so we're up shit creek without a paddle."

And everyone here should just expect that some day, you will have your assets taken. Maybe it's not today, maybe not tomorrow, or a week, or a year, or ten years. But someone will, Maybe you'll have moved on and don't care, or maybe you'll have changed your mindset, or maybe your the same. Doesn't matter. It's probably inevitable. If you don't have the mindset to accept that this is going to happen, with no desire to be rude, you probably shouldn't be doing this in a public forum that anyone can access.

As for me, I accept all those things, in fact I'm readily making it easy for my hack so the animations, and documentation is all being made readily available on release, because I believe in making it easier for those who come after me. Hell if someone wants to take my hack and use it as a base for their hack, I'm cool with that too.

That's how I feel anyway. Or rather that's how I know I have to think because otherwise one day someones going to rip it from the rom anyway, and getting all upset about it isn't going to solve anything, it's just going to lead to silly 6+ page topics debating morality vs legality while the people who did it are going to continue doing it.

[Tangerine]

i'm going to keep parroting this, but would i be mistaken in saying that anybody who thinks this is wrong/hypocrisy/whatever (slippery, whoever else) would be similarly unopposed to me just ripping all of fe7if's custom music and animations and posting them on this site?

because honestly i'm going to do it if there's no response by the time i get around to it

You won't be doing that here, no. Regardless of whether or not any of you feel wronged, they would be banned and have their projects removed from our forum for using people's work without permission (unless they've made it clear to begin with that anyone can) and it wouldn't be any different for you if you use theirs. SF doesn't tolerate it, and that along with the general stigma in the western community are large parts of what is protecting most of your projects from having things taken and used without permission.

Of course, if you truly felt that what they did was wrong this wouldn't even be an option you were considering to begin with. What they did was pretty crappy of them, but that's no excuse to do the same thing. You most certainly could not even make an argument for the moral high ground if you did.

- Hackers editing the works of others and claiming it as their own are effectively stealing the credit from them. Just like when you steal your office collegue's idea and get your promotion while he doesn't. Most people consider this to be a wrong thing to do.

From what I've seen, they have been attempting to credit users here for the most part, the issue is that they aren't asking for permission to actually use that work. What they've taken recently hasn't been credited yet as far as I know, but you can't make a sweeping statement about them taking stuff and not even trying to credit people for what they've taken.

@others

Nobody cares if there is a language barrier or whatever, even if they were asking for permission in the wrong section in engrish it would at least be acknowledged as an effort to get in contact with the people whose work they want to use, and the community would surely guide them in the direction of the people they need to speak to. And that's ultimately what everyone wants, at least some form of respect shown to them and the time/effort they put into their work.

@angry people

A lot of you are overreacting. It's frustrating that there isn't a lot that can be done and that resolution is entirely on their shoulders at this point, but even if it's true that they just don't care, you're going to have to stop concerning yourself with a subject where all that remains to do on your part is complain that it's still happening. You've done what you can:

- You've attempted to get in contact with them.

- You've made it clear to the community that your ideas/work/whatever is being used without your permission.

- Finally, you're doing your best to resolve the issue through what means you have left.

The next step is to move on, even if it seems clear that there is no hollywood ending, and at least be partially sated that you're a part of a community that does not find those actions acceptable; knowing at the very least that your time, effort and creations will be respected and protected here.

[Agro]

FE7ifが作った日本人へ

私は西洋のSerenes ForestというFEサイトからです。

すみません、日本語はあまりとくいじゃないですから、このメッセージをいったいどこで書き込むか本当に分かりませんでした。

このページを読んでくれるでしょうか？

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=43079&page=1

しばらく前に、烈火ifでBlackavarかVampire Elfなどというユーザーのグラフィックがパーミッションがなくて使われていると気がつかれました。

最近、新しい烈火ifのヴァージョンが出られました。また、私たちのグラフィックが使われたようです。

ですから、そのページを読んで、私たちを連絡したらいいと思います。

I'm about to post this, moonspeakers please correct as you see fit.

It (should) read as:

To the Japanese creators of FE7if,

I am from a Western FE website called Serenes Forest.

I apologise, but I'm not very good at Japanese, so I really had no idea where to post this message.

I wonder if you might read this page for us?

[link]

A while back, it was brought to our attention that, without permission, sprites from users such as Blackavar and Vampire Elf were being used in FE7if.

Recently, a new version of FE7if was released. It seems that, once again, our graphics were used.

Therefore, I think it would be good if you read that page and contacted us.

edit: fucking hell this board is broken

stupid quote tags

Edited September 19, 2013 by Agro

[lolful64]

Does anyone even know specifically who the creators are? Seriously, for them to post their rom hack there must obviously be a "starting place" where it was first posted. At w.livedoor.jp/fe7if/ it says last updated 7 september 2013. It is obvious that unless it is a lie then the creators are still out there waiting and (possibly) on serenesforest.

It can't be that hard to track them, right?

[Agro]

It's already been established that this is their hiding place and that yes, they read SF (or someone they know reads SF and posts the patches there) because a sprite from Origin of Creation has made an appearance and the patch for Origin of Creation was only released recently.

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

Lolol

[Book of Ereshkigal]

I'm kinda interested now, anyone have a compilation of all their mugs? :0

[AstraLunaSol]

lol my anna

everyone wants her

[Princess Peachar]

3. Be more accurate about what needs to be done about the current sprites. It's pretty clear you're asking them to ask for permission in the future, but it's not clear what the wronged artists want them to do right now with the current edited sprites. Should they be removed/credited? Can they stay, if a formal apology is given?

I, for one, would request to not to have my work butchered by them and will not grant my permission to use my work like that, regardless of an apology. They can ask me for a commission, and I miiiiiiight comply, but they would not have personal works. If they do respond, please be sure to express this for me (ShinyCharmander, Char, ConLimon, what have you). Bonnie is not Alice, and I'd prefer to keep it that way. Go back to the old one, thanks.

[dondon151]

I'm about to post this, moonspeakers please correct as you see fit.

consider using a native japanese compound for "permission" instead of the katakana word; you sound less foreign that way.

also, rey or esau can correct me on this, but i think it may be better to use "FE7ifの作り手へ" instead of "FE7ifが作った日本人へ."

EDIT: also, because many users here who have been affected by sprite theft have slightly differing opinions on resolution, you should also mention that we would like not only a communication, but a dialogue.

EDIT 2:

You won't be doing that here, no. Regardless of whether or not any of you feel wronged, they would be banned and have their projects removed from our forum for using people's work without permission (unless they've made it clear to begin with that anyone can) and it wouldn't be any different for you if you use theirs. SF doesn't tolerate it, and that along with the general stigma in the western community are large parts of what is protecting most of your projects from having things taken and used without permission.

Of course, if you truly felt that what they did was wrong this wouldn't even be an option you were considering to begin with. What they did was pretty crappy of them, but that's no excuse to do the same thing. You most certainly could not even make an argument for the moral high ground if you did.

i'm sorry, but i just don't agree with you here at all. there is absolutely no benefit to be had from taking the "moral high ground." in fact, it is completely irrational to do so. i would much rather invoke the golden rule and just do whatever we please with the japanese resources.

now, you're probably going to suggest that it's impossible to hold a sort of "double standard" regarding plagiarism and creative theft if we condone it for one community but abhor it within our community. that's just not true. this is tit-for-tat at work. within our community, we've already agreed to cooperate with each other, so it's perfectly justifiable to not cooperate with another community that also does not want to cooperate with us. there is absolutely nothing morally wrong about it. one concept that we've already established within this community is that if you steal someone else's work, you're held to a different standard than everyone else. i could make a case that this is not the "moral high ground" (a case similar to yours), but it's also perfectly justifiable and it's even explicitly approved by the staff here!

it is definitely premature to do anything without at first eliciting a response. but if their response is to just blow us off (and i will hazard to guess that this sort of response is not wholly unlikely), then i'd say go for it. if you decide to ban users for publishing hacks that "steal" japanese resources, that's your loss. the hacks will get published anyway.

Edited September 19, 2013 by dondon151

[FalconVegeta1986]

Suiciding accounts just to make a statement does not sound like a smart or mature thing to do, but thats just me. My question is how long are people actually going to give them to respond before they start attacking them? This whole thing sounds like it could not end well, and yes, we should try to be the better, more mature side of the situation.

[Tangerine]

i'm sorry, but i just don't agree with you here at all. there is absolutely no benefit to be had from taking the "moral high ground." in fact, it is completely irrational to do so. i would much rather invoke the golden rule and just do whatever we please with the japanese resources.

now, you're probably going to suggest that it's impossible to hold a sort of "double standard" regarding plagiarism and creative theft if we condone it for one community but abhor it within our community. that's just not true. this is tit-for-tat at work. within our community, we've already agreed to cooperate with each other, so it's perfectly justifiable to not cooperate with another community that also does not want to cooperate with us. there is absolutely nothing morally wrong about it. one concept that we've already established within this community is that if you steal someone else's work, you're held to a different standard than everyone else. i could make a case that this is not the "moral high ground" (a case similar to yours), but it's also perfectly justifiable and it's even explicitly approved by the staff here!

I'm going to ignore the rule part since it's off topic and we're already discussing it on skype.

I'll say that this course of action is entirely haphazard though. Look at the way your average hacking team is made up here, and then consider what you're saying. We don't have any idea of how the distribution of work is divided among their team, and we certainly don't know who's responsible for what. Here's a scenario:

Bill is project lead & hacker

Jim does music for Bill

Bob makes animations for Bill

..

Bill takes sprites from someone without permission

Now this logic suggests that despite it having been Bill who did it, they should be justified in stealing work from Jim & Bob just for having been involved with the project. How would anyone who is a part of a hacking project from our community feel if they were punished or wronged for the actions of the person who commissions their work?

It's totally ignorant to just lump them all together without knowing a thing about them, and in extremely poor taste to retaliate against some people who potentially weren't even involved in what we're discussing.

[Book of Ereshkigal]

Ya, I think we should at least wait for them to be contacted in the first place before we steal their stuff freak out XD