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PKL

Changing the DS games for the better!

DS  

63 members have voted

  1. 1. Warp or no warp or something else?

    • Warp the Warp staff out of the game (take it out its OP)
    • Warp on Marth causes Marth and the warper to warp to a random spot instead
      0
    • Warp ends the warped unit's turn immediately.
    • Warp only has 1 use.
    • Warp range nerfed to 1/2 the user's Mag stat.
    • Warp is available much later in the game.
    • I like managing warp uses (for dondon only)


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Basically, a fun topic where we give ideas on how to balance the cast of the DS games. We'll begin with FE11's Marth and FE12's Avatar.

FE11 Marth is notable for being one of the worst lords in Fire Emblem games. Being swordlocked, low damage output and usually moving fully to get to the throne, he doesnt get lots of chances to get experience. How do you think he could be fixed/rebalanced?

As for FE12 Avatar, we all know he/she's the best combat unit in FE12. Having a plethora of class options to choose from at the beginning. Having 8 mini chapters where he/she excels and having above average growths, opportunity to get experience and nice customizable bases. Some of his class choices need some help, while others could definetely be toned down...

Edited by PKL

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Marth should definitely get a mount upon promotion and maybe more weapons.

Avatar needs lower growths.

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Marth is actually somewhat "okay" when you did not play efficiently since he has a lot of chances to get EXP, and his growth is not that bad complete with good base for unit of his time

One of the problem that I have with him is how SD is structured Read: Warp Staff All Day Everyday

Suggested buff

- Rapier MT -> 7

Marth is a Lord so he need something to set him apart. This is one of them I guess. Its kinda notable that the 5 MT Rapier was one of the most OP weapon in the series history, but in FE11 especially in H5, its not that good anymore. 7 Damage translates into 6 extra damage, so it still need Forge to make it matter.

- Fire Emblem and Falchion increased stats

I don't know if this can happen, but this solves the base stats problem in a sense that you don't get an OP base Lord, and, at the same time give Marth an increase in base stats to make him competitive for the early game and for the tails end of the game.

- +2 HP and SPD

Ehh, just put this here so that Marth can double with some EXP infusion. Notably 9 SPD doubled 4 SPD Knights I guess

Edited by JSND

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Now keep in my that I haven't played anything beyond H2 in SD but Marth seems pretty good to me. Not Ike or Ephraim or Hector level but far from bad.

7 movement, buyable rapiers, easy forges. Seems more than decent to me.

Edited by Ranger Jack Walker

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FE11 Marth: Increase his move by one. Let's him reach combat as quickly as Caeda does before she promotes. Go with +2 base HP, Str and Spe.

I'd really like FEMU's Mage stats to be higher. I'd probably buff the Mage class bases in Mag, Skl, Spe, Def and Res by 2 points each. This also has the benefit for helping scrubs like Yubello. I'd drop his base strength by one, but increase the base strength of archers by one so that option isn't nerfed.

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Royal Airforce too OP, nerf pls

actually don't, Palla and Catria are awesome

....oh we're not there yet?

as for FE11 Marth: actually the best thing would be to make warp limited and Tiki/Nagi not SE on Medeus, like FE12

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While I find FE11!Marth rather underwhelming in comparison to better lords, I can't exactly think of what buffs he should get. If he gets more Str/Skl/Spd, he outperforms Ogma in almost everything, which is just silly. I think his growth rates should be improved, and Rapier should be buffed (to 7 might, like JSND said before).

FE12!MU doesn't need to be nerfed, since its whole point is a crutch. On the easier difficulties, it can be replaced by Luke/Rody/Ryan/whathaveyou, so you're not fixing anything there. Again, on H2/Lunatic, more of a crutch than anything else. People complain that it's broken with lunatic statboosters and Rainbow Potion, but maybe that's just because lunatic statboosters and Rainbow Potion are broken, you knobheads.

EDIT I think the weaker classes should be buffed, and for the love of god, give Myrm!MU +1HP base.

Edited by Refa

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"as for FE11 Marth: actually the best thing would be to make warp limited and Tiki/Nagi not SE on Medeus, like FE12"

This one is pretty hard to say. On one hand, many players would moan for being forced to train units that they did not want to train, and 0% Growth run become impossibru. On the other hand, being forced to feed him EXP force him to catch up to the others, which, combined with less Warp skip shenanigans might solve his catching up problem

"but maybe that's just because lunatic statboosters and Rainbow Potion are broken, you knobheads."

So true

Is there a way to nerf FE12 MU without making them a Luke/Rody clone? I remember people saying how FE12 MU is basically near identical to Luke, but beetwen the Past and Future stats bonus, combined with having pre-set weapon rank AND 1 Free level(Prologue), maybe 2(Chapter 1) make him much more broken than Luke compared how they should be in theory

Edited by JSND

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I just think Marth should promote to Lord Knight and get a +2 MT Rapier boost. He's pretty much fine regardless.

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I just think Marth should promote to Lord Knight and get a +2 MT Rapier boost. He's pretty much fine regardless.

OK, this is the best idea.

I think Falchion should suck less too. Like why is it the worst Regalia ever?

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FE11 Marth: This is going to sound like a trolling attempt, and I don't mean it to be that way so I'm sorry in advance, but...why don't Lords gain Experience for seizing thrones? Kinda the same thing with Thieves and opening treasure chests/unlocking doors, but...that's always irked me. Dancers and staff-users get XP for performing non-combative functions, I'm not sure why that doesn't apply to Thieves and Lords. Marth would probably suck a lot less if he just gained Experience/a level whenever he did something Lord-specific, like visiting a village or seizing a throne. I mean, you'd make it so he didn't get (as much or any) experience from doing other things (like chipping bosses), but obvious abuse-fixing aside...is this making any sense at all? Likewise, attacking with a Thief wouldn't net much Experience, but successfully Stealing an item from someone or unlocking objects would make them level up quickly (possibly very quickly).

FE12 Avatar: I would back away from the current class choice system on Avatar. I would want to go back to the Avatar's class progression being 'Tactician -> Grandmaster' and nothing else, then balance those two classes appropriately (or even just go Tactician 30, and not bring promotions into it at all). Instead, focus a lot more on developing the non-mechanical aspects of Avatar customization: not just gender, but things like your age, more outfits (way more), more hairstyles and facial details (way more), the story backgrounds (maybe the game would even just let you write it, yourself), body types, maybe even -species- (you want a Manakete Avatar that lost their stone, go for it), etc.. You shouldn't need to precognize which combination of stats is the most 'uber build', and you shouldn't be forced to play certain builds to survive higher difficulty levels without blatant RNG abuse ("Oh no, Jagen spawned with 25 HP instead of 24, I'm fucked."). Tactician would probably be focused on supporting the other units in your army; in fact, they'd probably be MORE important as what I'd envision a Tactician to be doing, then they would be as a 'lol A-Spears and Axes 30 DEF Draco gg'.

Edited by EdeaCreamer

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"as for FE11 Marth: actually the best thing would be to make warp limited and Tiki/Nagi not SE on Medeus, like FE12"

This one is pretty hard to say. On one hand, many players would moan for being forced to train units that they did not want to train, and 0% Growth run become impossibru. On the other hand, being forced to feed him EXP force him to catch up to the others, which, combined with less Warp skip shenanigans might solve his catching up problem

0% growths can't be done in FE12 Lunatic either, at least Medeus wouldn't have 40 defense this time

also I want to see someone do 0% growths for FE13 Lunatic+

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FE11 Marth: This is going to sound like a trolling attempt, and I don't mean it to be that way so I'm sorry in advance, but...why don't Lords gain Experience for seizing thrones?

GENIUS

Also I like your thief idea.

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FE11 Marth is actually pretty decent within the context of FE11. Forgeable effective damage on armors/cavaliers means he can ORKO lots of stuff since those enemies show up a lot. Not as good as the Wing Spear, but better than what most of FE11's cast can do.

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FE11 Marth : I don't know if it would be an advantage or not for Marth if everyone could visit the villages, as it can distract him from battle and experience. On the other hand, I also think that giving him experience for visiting and seizing would be good, since it seems fitting that, being the leader, he would also improve by doing his lord job. So yeah apart from that he is not bad, maybe a bit more speed would be good, since he often has trouble ORKO if he's not using his effective weapons.

FE12 Avatar : Just go back to FE7 Avatar, maybe with more screen-time, but his usefulness shouldn't be "I'm the best soldier around", but rather "Despite those crappy odds, my intellect has granted us this victory", or that's how I see what a tactician should be personally. And if he is part of the battlefield, why would he have to be a god tier character? Lower growths all the way for him/her.

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Oh, phew! I was wondering if I'd be ridiculed for suggesting the throne/chest XP thing or not; since -none- of the FE games do that, I thought I was missing something extremely basic as to the reasoning behind it.

I would much rather FE12!Avatar's 'special power' be more invested in a unique ability, rather than 'I'mma pwn u wit muh rigged statz.' Again, kinda like what a Tactician would normally be envisioned doing: providing buffs/bonuses to other units, while not being especially strong on their own. Notice how Feena is a -wonderful- character, and yet her stats are horrendous, because she can supply a simple 'go ahead and move again, big guy' support at the cost of her own turn. In fact, she's more important in battle deployments than the Avatar.

I think the question would be 'what, specifically, are these buffs/bonuses going to be'. Get too crazy with them, and you either start destroying the challenge of the more difficult modes, or make it so that deploying the Tactician is basically required to complete said modes. I haven't played Awakening but apparently there's a unit that can refresh the turns of four other people per Player Phase? Good lord.

Edited by EdeaCreamer

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"In fact, she's more important in battle deployments than the Avatar."

The Avatar might be able to do some jobs that others can't even with Feena, so eh

Edited by JSND

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FE11 Marth: Perhaps he could get 8 Move at Level 20, to keep up with your promoted infantry. Also a 7 MT Rapier to help him kill things without forges.

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FE11 marth: 7 MT rapier and rescuing

FE12 avatar: fewer prologue chapters

Bold: How does that help him as a unit? All that will cause if him to become the next Roy.

Underline: That affects balance too drastically. Surely there's something better to do with avatar than that?

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Bold: How does that help him as a unit? All that will cause if him to become the next Roy.

Underline: That affects balance too drastically. Surely there's something better to do with avatar than that?

don't combine class sets?

hey what's your favorite Zelda game after Wind Waker

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FE11: Remove the Wing Spear, and have the Ridersbane drop on Chapter 10.

FE12: Lower growths so that MU is slightly below average overall.

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I'm seeing a lot of suggestions for 'lower growths/nerf' on MU12 without anything else, but I dislike that idea -assuming- we keep the unit at all. Bear in mind that if the Avatar's KO'd, the game is over immediately, even in Casual Mode; deploying the Avatar at all is, therefore, a great liability if they're not contributing -something- specific that another character can't fully duplicate (insert Xane joke, here). Essentially, you just wouldn't deploy this below-average character who lacks any redeeming abilities, and in turn there's no point having an Avatar unit.

Note that this doesn't mean not having an Avatar, period, I mean having an Avatar -unit-. It's a perfectly reasonable opinion to say 'get rid of the Avatar unit in FE12, and relegate the character to cutscenes'. Actually, I'd be down with that idea, myself; then it's just like how it was in FE7, basically. But the idea of nerfing the Avatar's growths -and not putting anything in its place- means that the character creation process for an Avatar is basically unnecessary, misleading garbage, and should be modified to solely allow for cosmetic alterations (or be removed entirely).

Admittedly, part of the Avatar's allure is making a version of yourself that's a badass out on the field, and it's one the reasons Awakening did well commercially. Turning the Avatar into a subpar sack of crap would be alienating.

I would suggest for FE12's Avatar the following, ignoring ease of implementation:

-Fix the Avatar's class to something unique that doesn't promote. My personal choice for a name is Tactician (30 level cap). Stats and growths would be completely readjusted for this, reflecting someone who's not necessarily a combat beast but still provides a very important function (much like Thief, Lord, and Dancer). I would have them use Bows and Staves, basically minimizing their ability to have an Enemy Phase (one of their major weaknesses).

-Change the early prologue story to revolve around how both Katarina and the Avatar are fellow aspiring Tacticians (or at least how it seems that way).

-Focus on the Avatar's unique ability to offer Support Bonuses to virtually any other character. Expand upon this characteristic. Enhance its range with regards to the Avatar, enhance the bonuses provided to the other units, make certain special things available for the other character when Support with the Avatar reaches A Rank (like a unique bonus, or even a new attack), perhaps implement a special command that administers a strong buff to a single target as the Avatar's action for the round (similar to Dancing but not necessarily the same thing). SOMETHING that makes it a tempting risk to still deploy the Avatar, instead of making it a no-brainer to bench them.

Edited by EdeaCreamer

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I would much rather FE12!Avatar's 'special power' be more invested in a unique ability, rather than 'I'mma pwn u wit muh rigged statz.' Again, kinda like what a Tactician would normally be envisioned doing: providing buffs/bonuses to other units, while not being especially strong on their own. Notice how Feena is a -wonderful- character, and yet her stats are horrendous, because she can supply a simple 'go ahead and move again, big guy' support at the cost of her own turn. In fact, she's more important in battle deployments than the Avatar.

FE12!Avatar isn't a tactician though. She's a myrmidon. And no, I don't mean purely class wise, I'm more referring to the fact that she does no tacticioning to speak of, besides being the squad leader for solely the prologue missions. Her whole character is "YEAH I GOT TRAINED BY AN OLD GUY MY WHOLE LIFE WHICH IS WHY I REALLY KICK ASS WHAT'S IT TO YOU", so it makes sense that she's so good story wise, if not perfectly balanced gameplay wise.

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