link arena Fire Emblem Link Arena Discussion Topic

[Icon of Sin]

Probably should've attacked someone else. I'm kind of disappointed in myself for making crazy decisions like that happen.

As I experienced it yesterday, I would've highly suggested to attack Ike with any form of 2 Range instead. Hell, Ilyana's probably even better than Astrid too since she can counter when needed (and in your case she didn't have to yet). Flare also nets you a nice 9 bonus damage just in case.

I wouldn't touch Ike even with a ten foot pole unless said pole guarantees a kill.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Woodshooter

[ZemZem]

As I experienced it yesterday, I would've highly suggested to attack Ike with any form of 2 Range instead. Hell, Ilyana's probably even better than Astrid too since she can counter when needed (and in your case she didn't have to yet). Flare also nets you a nice 9 bonus damage just in case.

I wouldn't touch Ike even with a ten foot pole unless said pole guarantees a kill.

What I should've done is have Ilyana wail away on Ike with Bolting. I didn't even consider it at the time, unfortunately.

[Espinosa]

I wanted to let everyone know that I'm about to implement the changes described in this post.

So, my comments/conclusions? It's not too late here yet this time, so I'll go ahead.

Naesala. He's pretty damn good, and both Vantage and doubling have their applications. Hard to connect attacks against. Easier to damage than Giffca and Tibarn. I think there's a reason to put him in your team as your royal of choice. Watch out for your equipped items though.

- also, I just realised that at this point you can't really tell on turn 1 whether the opponent's Laguz is transformed or not, and you can only understand what item they've got equipped on turn 2. This means it's too likely to be a waste of a turn to attack them with a Laguz-slaying weapon on turn 1, since for all you know they could strike back (and even double). So I suppose Laguzbanding yourself from the start might be a bad decision, but you never know - it's another mindgame. SMs double untransformed Giffca/Tibarn for example (as does a transformed Giffca who wants to try his luck).

Provoke. Honestly, it isn't a big deal. Shinon is surviving 1 turn at most, perhaps none, and is almost certainly the number 1 target of the first attacks even w/o Provoke. Strats with suicidal Nepenthe and Tauroneo still make it unclear whether Provoke is any good at all.

Shade. Okay, we've seen Ilyana put to great use here and we saw her destroy Gatrie completely, albeit not one-rounding. Brom will not be doubled by her in Fixed Mode and therefore Brom has a good reason to be used in spite of having 2 points of str less than Gatrie - his supports are neat too.

We still don't know if Ilyana's existence gives a team with Ilyana a huge advantage over one without her (I think this applies to Ike, Makalov and royals even more, but none of them have the capacity to nuke for the entirety of the game until everyone else is dead). She definitely has a lot of disadvantages too - her need to scout sometimes, low hit rates on non-forged attacks (not always though), being hurt hard by Wishblade counters, taking up a slot without being a durable unit on the last moment when durability is most needed, which makes her value... still dubious I say.

[Icon of Sin]

What I should've done is have Ilyana wail away on Ike with Bolting. I didn't even consider it at the time, unfortunately.

Why not Rexbolt? +2 Might, +16 Hit, +6 Crit, even get to keep your ability to counter if Ilyana's suddenly alone.

[ZemZem]

Yeah, Shade was pretty damn cool this match. Definitely more useful on Ilyana than it is on Volke, I assume, since she can actually deal some damage.

Why not Rexbolt? +2 Might, +16 Hit, +6 Crit, even get to keep your ability to counter if Ilyana's suddenly alone.

Even better. Though wouldn't Ike 1RKO her with Ragnell?

[Icon of Sin]

- also, I just realised that at this point you can't really tell on turn 1 whether the opponent's Laguz is transformed or not, and you can only understand what item they've got equipped on turn 2. This means it's too likely to be a waste of a turn to attack them with a Laguz-slaying weapon on turn 1, since for all you know they could strike back (and even double). So I suppose Laguzbanding yourself from the start might be a bad decision, but you never know - it's another mindgame. SMs double untransformed Giffca/Tibarn for example (as does a transformed Giffca who wants to try his luck).

We still don't know if Ilyana's existence gives a team with Ilyana a huge advantage over one without her (I think this applies to Ike, Makalov and royals even more, but none of them have the capacity to nuke for the entirety of the game until everyone else is dead). She definitely has a lot of disadvantages too - her need to scout sometimes, low hit rates on non-forged attacks (not always though), being hurt hard by Wishblade counters, taking up a slot without being a durable unit on the last moment when durability is most needed, which makes her value... still dubious I say.

As I said in PM to you, I don't think Giffca really minds starting with the band. However, a player using one of the two birds and starting second might have a disadvantage already unless he has a unit like Shinon who's generally an easier target that can really annoy the hell out of your team.

Ideally you could try one of Sage's or my teams with one of Refa's or ZM's teams. I'm a bit busy tomorrow, so if anyone wants to give a try, I can give my team information to anyone who wants to try the challenge.

Even better. Though wouldn't Ike 1RKO her with Ragnell?

My bad, I forgot it was allowed.

You can try if you know the opponent went for more accuracy with the forge or more procs with the Brave.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Woodshooter

[ZemZem]

As I said in PM to you, I don't think Giffca really minds starting with the band. However, a player using one of the two birds and starting second might have a disadvantage already unless he has a unit like Shinon who's generally an easier target that can really annoy the hell out of your team.

Ideally you could try one of Sage's or my teams with one of Refa's or ZM's teams. I'm a bit busy tomorrow, so if anyone wants to give a try, I can give my team information to anyone who wants to try the challenge.

-

My bad, I forgot it was allowed.

You can try if you know the opponent went for more accuracy with the forge or more procs with the Brave.

I wouldn't mind trying out the team, but I'd rather not take part in two games in a row in case someone else wants to have a go.

That's a good thought. Noted.

[Espinosa]

Okay, from now on the games will run with the updated stats in the opening post. To highlight the changes once again:

You guys thought I became almost as bulky as a General when wielding the Ragnell? Now I have an extra defence point, so good luck taking me down!

Great, with this extra point of speed I can follow master Ike and give him my Earth support with no fear of being ORKO'd by Giffca even if the player somehow forgot to give me a Laguzguard (I really deserve one, don't I?). I got a point of str too, so Kieran and I now have a +1 str/spd advantage over one another, just like red and green cav should!

That pitiful subhuman Giffca can double me no longer! Good Lord, I still see his claws in my worst nightmares. Bonus strength too, so watch out for Brave Bow crits coming to a sword user near you.

Guys guys, I'm a loyal knight training hard to fit in and you don't even bother putting me into a team? Did you see how much Ilyana's spells destroy Gatrie? Well, with this extra point of speed, nothing Ilyana uses can ever double me, so next time you assemble a team, consider keeping a spot for me okay? I support some decent units as well if that's of any help.

My HUSBAND Makalov always gets in all sorts of trouble, thinking he can tank a whole team on his own and kill Tibarns at 53% displayed hit; what would he do without me and my bonuses? Boosts in durability and strength make me a formidable Paladin to have on your team unlike a certain red knight with 25 AS...

I just hit 27 AS so you folks better watch out~ I'll hit you harder than Giffca whether you equip a Laguzguard or not, and have crit/skill procs and other neat options as well. Don't tell anyone my defence sucks though or, on the contrary, tell them just that so that they can hide me behind somebody confident and cool so that I can swing my axe around and destroy some teams.

You think I'm an inferior royal who relies on Cancel procs to stay alive and continue hitting people? Well, my offence is not too far from Giffca's level now with this extra point of strength. Let's see if your Aethers and Sols can outlast me!

Edited November 8, 2013 by Espinosa

[ZemZem]

Silly Espinosa, Astrid and Makalov aren't related.

Pretty awesome dialogue, though.

[dondon151]

i think i'd like to participate in the next contest (with a different team obv.) but i'm still not clear on the turn 1 transformation mechanics. if you go second, are 16 gauge laguz automatically transformed on the opponent's first turn without a laguz band?

[shadykid]

hey where's the writeup for Mia/Mist/Rofl/Nephenee/Tanith

[Espinosa]

i think i'd like to participate in the next contest (with a different team obv.) but i'm still not clear on the turn 1 transformation mechanics. if you go second, are 16 gauge laguz automatically transformed on the opponent's first turn without a laguz band?

Full Guard!Laguz transform on the player's first active turn. However, you get no message about their transforming or not transforming prior to that (when the game is announced), so attacking the opponent's royal on turn 1 is a bit of a gamble (though transformed Giffca choosing to attack untransformed Tibarn can get a delicious amount of damage done, like ~70% assuming no Cancel procs).

[Espinosa]

Oh, and I just tested Vantage.

Naesala attacks Vantage!Tanith - Tanith activates Vantage and attacks first, then Naesala does his two attacks (and he killed her =( ). So the skill's description should have been "Always attack first when attacked first", though with better wording than that.

[Refa]

Should've given her a Laguzguard! Then she'd totally live.

[Espinosa]

Should've given her a Laguzguard! Then she'd totally live.

Should've fielded Shinon with Provoke!

Anyway, I'm glad we got that bit right during the Naesala mirror last match. Sets a correct precedent for all future fights between Naesalas and Mias.

[Espinosa]

The first post now provides instructions on how to do RNG-related things when hosting matches (I will not be around for a while).

I have also added the Demi Banded stats for all Laguz, since this is a form in which they're likely to appear at one point or another (switching between Full Guard and Demi Band, sometimes locked into the Demi Band). Lethe and Janaff are the two non-royals who can transform instantly on the first active turn, unless you get whacked by getting the second turn (Lethe can probably afford being Demi Banded from the start, and Ilyana with a forged Fire tome is 1 HP short of 2HKOing her, 2HKO'd with Meteor regardless, but that's less accurate and not guaranteed to be on Ilyana). Janaff is too afraid of arrows to risk not having the Full Guard.

Demi Band stats for the royals are topical in the event we ever decide to nerf the royals by banning the Laguz Band (don't see it happening tbqh).

Also have a look at Nasir with the Demi Band. With 25 AS, he just barely doubles Ilyana and 2HKO's her even if Ilyana has unlikely Gatrie/Mordecai supports for +5 def, taking an effective Rexbolt fine due to his high resistance. Nihil!Nasir is a viable option on teams considering the potential Ilyana has right now. However, he is doubled and hurt pretty badly by Giffca (everyone else he can sorta tank out due to having acceptable speed and General-like physical durability). 41 atk is a little too low though, comparable to Naesala not doubling and fixed 150 hit could fail to connect many evasive characters (87% hit against Ilyana not factoring in Ilyana's potential Zihark support giving her +7% avo). Nihil also means Nasir is safe from stray Luna/Aether/et al. procs.

I think with Nasir existing, we needn't ban either Provoke or Shove in the no boosters metagame. Even if Ilyana destroys Gatrie (the only character she wallops completely, really), Nasir one-rounds Ilyana.

Nasir is about as close as we come to a viable non-royal Laguz. Janaff is so-so - his speed is nice but not high enough to double anybody of note, and he can proc 27/29% Cancels like Tibarn, but is outclassed by him. He doesn't have to fight for the royal slot however, and provides useful supports to Oscar and Shinon, actually having great synergy with the two (more avo for the already evasive Oscar, and up to +3 defence for Shinon). Being on the same team as Shinon also means Janaff doesn't fear being hit with a Laguz Axe or Giffca on the first turn (Giffca ORKOs him). Fully transformed Janaff is no longer doubled by Giffca and is instead 3HKO'd.

So that's some interesting news.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Espinosa

[dondon151]

I think with Nasir existing, we needn't ban either Provoke or Shove in the no boosters metagame. Even if Ilyana destroys Gatrie (the only character she wallops completely, really), Nasir one-rounds Ilyana.

how does this work? nihil doesn't nullify passive, non-battle skills.

[Espinosa]

Good point, but we pretty much did make Nihil a battle skill. For example, ZM issued the command to attack Ilyana last match and I said "nuh-uh, can't do that". What sort of other skills in PoR does Nihil not negate? Seems like a really good idea to have these two interact in such a way, though.

Valid issue regardless.

[PKL]

Also, it's not like Provoke/Shade are consistent. Stay as true to the game as possible :P

[Icon of Sin]

There is a particular boss with Nihil though. Try Kayachey in chapter 18, the Tornado Sage boss.

[dondon151]

Good point, but we pretty much did make Nihil a battle skill. For example, ZM issued the command to attack Ilyana last match and I said "nuh-uh, can't do that". What sort of other skills in PoR does Nihil not negate? Seems like a really good idea to have these two interact in such a way, though.

if you wanted to draw a distinction between skills that take effect during battle and skills that take effect before a battle, provoke and shade fall into latter category.

[Espinosa]

Nihil's description just says: "negates enemy's combat-related skills". What Shade and Provoke are doing in our metagame sounds more than combat-related enough to me.

Yeah, I looked up Nihil in boss data and remembered about that boss. There's hardly any point in, like, positioning Volke alongside somebody else in his range considering we know little about Shade/Provoke in the game in themselves. In the desert, you can re-direct a hit from Volke 100% of the time allowing him to get the treasure, but on my 0% growths run I left Volke in a treasure room with a Killer Lance Halb whom Muarim failed to ORKO and the Halb critkilled Volke on EP (he wasn't naturally OHKOing with a normal attack, nor doubling for that matter).

I just found that having Shade/Provoke function at all times (Shade when somebody else is still alive) would be better than, say, rolling dice each time a player tries to target Ilyana or somebody who isn't Shinon when Shinon is around. If Shade could find itself on Rolf and Provoke on Makalov, then we'd have to remove these skills or nerf them, but with Ilyana and Shinon being their only/viable wielders I think this is the way to go.

Again, the point, it seems to me, should be to adapt the ingame mechanics to shape a metagame that's both entertaining, varied and playable. Having just one usable tome user in Ilyana makes things a whole lot more interesting (compared to having none at all), and enabling Nasir to attack her through Shade brings even more implications and depth that seem to be beneficial here.

I should be logging off right right now, and might not be on tomorrow morning, and won't be online until after next week from now. It'd be cool if we could have some more battles to see how balanced things are, keep testing Ilyana and Shinon, and might as well add Nasir with his Nihil functioning as a Shade-breaker and see if players would bother deploying Nasir and Ilyana because of his existence. If we can keep some activity going that'd be great, and I know PKL was one of the people who volunteered to help out. It's pretty hard to get other people's games organised and going, that's for sure. So try to play out some games until I'm back, and maybe games will be running smoothly without any of my participation after that - I tried to make the first post resourceful and calculating during games really quick with all the info in it.

[dondon151]

Again, the point, it seems to me, should be to adapt the ingame mechanics to shape a metagame that's both entertaining, varied and playable. Having just one usable tome user in Ilyana makes things a whole lot more interesting (compared to having none at all), and enabling Nasir to attack her through Shade brings even more implications and depth that seem to be beneficial here.

no, it just means that a team with ilyana is down 5-4 against a team with nasir. that doesn't make the metagame interesting at all. there's a problem with having full 100% counters be available.

[darkkfan]

Just signed in today and realized I was so busy lately that I totally forgot about this. It's a shame since I was looking forward to this. Oh well, at least it seems like this topic was pretty successful anyway and it looks like it was a lot of fun!

Anyway, just thought I'd drop by to apologize for the inconvenience.

[Espinosa]

no, it just means that a team with ilyana is down 5-4 against a team with nasir. that doesn't make the metagame interesting at all. there's a problem with having full 100% counters be available.

Still here so I'll respond to this.

Looks like I haven't considered some of the variables at players' disposal. Ilyana could always end up with a Laguzguard (it was ZM's initial desire to do so before I urged against it), which also has usage in making Ilyana better if she's your last survivor going against a royal, as it prevents her from being 2HKO'd by Tibarn (not sure if still the case since we added him a point of str; kinda busy to look at all the numbers right now) and Naesala. Ilyana with a Laguzguard now survives two attacks from Nasir as well, possibly countering with Rexbolt for really heavy damage and, if Flare activates / the 6% crit kicks in, leaves Nasir vulnerable to a finisher from Ilyana's teammate next turn. So the variables are still there and the players are expected to react to what happens rather it being a clear "5-4, job done, next turn".

Most importantly, Ilyana is no longer stuck as being unhittable, since not only can she be countered at 2-range (in the last game both players avoided it with no problem through scouting) but can also be susceptible to Nasir, and if she protects from him with the Laguzguard the rest of Ilyana's team is more vulnerable to royalty due to losing one Laguzguard.

So in the end we have two interesting characters who function not unlike the others making room for additional variables in team building and behaviour on the field.

I say we test this first; the arguments against have been heard and now we need to see it in practice alongside other aspects of the metagame whose balance still remains unknown.

And Valhalt, there's much action still to be had with this (everything is still ahead of us I'd argue), especially in my absence.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Espinosa