FE12 H3 Blind Playthrough Log

[PKL]

P4 Athena looked like a nightmare! Also, I didn't suggest you only use Ryan. I just think you would benefit from using the Prologue units longterm. Hope none of them disappoint Though both Ryan and Luke have been getting lackluster levels. Caeda got str first level though, that's always good.

Also, the AI in this game is a combination of stuff. From previous experience, I can say that the game even calcs hit into it, but it is the lowest priority and one of the last things it checks. From what I have experienced with it, the order is something like:

1. Immediate kill = move to KO said unit over everything else

Even if the order of attacks wouldn't normally be like that, the unit that can KO immediately will move first and KO that unit. Like what happened in P4 Athena.

2. Crit chance

The next seems to be crit kills. The AI seems less consistent in this. It seems some of them (like Luke) will go for the 1-2% crit over the other things, while a regular enemy will only try to crit under some circumstances.

3. Total damage

The AI will seek the unit with lowest def or res next. Lots of ways to exploit this one.

4. Avo

The final one is Avo. They do care about avoid when 2 units meet the other requirements at the same time or when the avo is great enough.

In every case, you can notice a complete disregard for their own safety :P. And unlike FE13, they don't tagteam unless the unit has less def than the other. So, if say, the unit would die from 2 wyverns, that unit is in range of 2 and there's another unit with lower def that is only in range of 1, one of the wyverns will go for the lowest def and the other will go for the first unit that could've died if they had ganged up.

To summarize: The AI wants to KO your units above all else. Like Venobennu said, the above method only works if you predict the order in which they will move. Though, in my experience, I always guessed the right order, so it must be that they rearrange their attack order to attack lowest def too.

Edited December 8, 2013 by PKL

[commonguard]

Also thanks for the advice on the AI. That does sound rather abusable. Is the crit thing ALWAYS a priority above all else?

Strictly speaking? Sadly, no. I wish it was that simple. It's not even as simple as some of the users here are suggesting.

I am not aware of the actual thresholds but this is my understanding of the AI.

Enemies have a pre-set order of attack that can typically be determined by using L to cycle through and the first unit to attack is almost always the boss. Though siege units will generally attack first. Units that have the option to engage your units in combat will be given priority over units that just have the option to just move. Now every enemy always has a "target" that they will move towards if they can't immediately engage one of your units. This isn't as simple as enemies will move towards the closest player units if they can't hit something right away. It's actually determined by the number of full movement ranges, unarmed vs. WTA, potential damage, crit chance, etc. This video probably explains the movement range thing best.

You don't have to watch the whole video. Just watch from 9:30 to 10:15. At 9:48 is where it happens.

Contrary to popular belief I'm pretty sure enemies don't break attack order if they have a guaranteed kill. Often times I've experienced "IS is trolling me" moments where units that will definitely kill just take their turns when it comes around. They do however break order when they have a chance to kill. So basically, if an enemy unit has 100% chance to kill MU they sometimes just wait around letting their allies take shots at your units and then when their turn comes around they kill MU.

2% displayed crit is commonly enough for enemies to want to target a specific unit but some units can avoid being targeted by reducing the displayed hit to less than 60% (this is just a rough threshold, I don't know the actual threshold). So say Sirius is facing 2% crit chance against an axe user but Sirius is currently a SM and is only experiencing a 55% chance of being hit by said axe user. There's a decent chance the axe user will target someone else like say a lance user like Caeda even if Caeda would take slightly less damage from the hit and has 0% chance of dying.

If enemies would do the same amount of damage to units the AI prefers to attack with WTA (except in some cases where they are doubling but they have the option of attacking an unarmed unit for the same or better damage - I believe this was put in to avoid exploits of counter KOs). The AI also considers hit rates into this as well. AI will sometimes hit a unit they do less damage to just because of WTA or displayed hit rates.

Just a few examples attempt to clarify some points if they seem confusing.

1. Say you have an axe user that has 55% displayed hit doing 25 damage upon a hit against SM!Linde vs. 100% displayed hit doing 5 damage to a DEF boosted DK!MU. Chances are SM!Linde is going to be under fire.

2. Now say we have the same axe user that has 55% displayed hit doing 25 damage to SM!Linde vs. 65% displayed hit doing 20 damage to SM!Luke. It's not as clear who the target will be. (My money is on Luke though.)

3. And again assume we have the same axe user who has a 55% displayed hit doing 25 damage to SM!Linde vs 100% displayed hit doing 15 damage to DK!Palla. I can pretty much guarantee Palla is taking an axe to the face while Linde will be left alone.

Crit rates generally make things even messier.

Suppose we have an Ice dragon with a retarded 16 crit, with displayed crits of 3% on Palla and 6% on Sirius. Let's also just assume they both die to crits. Usually Sirius will be the target. However, if you field Sirius as an SM all of a sudden the dragon might decide that the hit rate discrepancy is enough that Palla should be the target instead.

There are some interesting cases that I haven't experienced but I have thought about. One such case being, suppose unit A is facing 40% displayed hit and 0% crit but is OHKO'd by an enemy if the hit lands. Unit B is facing 100% displayed hit and 25% crit by the same enemy, where unit B will die if he gets crit'd but will survive otherwise. Who is the target?

Long story short AI targeting is about expected damage with specific thresholds thrown into the mix to make it harder for players to really exploit the AI.

As a final note, I believe some units are just hard-coded to target certain characters and completely disregard the typical AI priority (an example being the C15 Paladins pretty much always target Marth before other units except of course if they can kill another unit).

Edit 7:31 8/12/2013: Enemies with 1-2 range attacks will determine who the target is pretty much how I described. If they can attack their target from a square where they receive no counter they will do that. Otherwise they will use a little movement as possible to attack. For example, if their target is a Sniper!Sirius and they can attack at 1 range they will do that. If their target is a Paladin!Palla equipped with a Javelin, even if they had the option to attack while standing on a pillar they will just attack from a floor tile. Yeah, it's pretty stupid but that's how it works.

Edited December 9, 2013 by commonguard

[PKL]

I hadn't delved that deep. Just enough to do everything I need to. You just said what I said with more words >_>. *last time I press view anyway*

[commonguard]

You just said what I said with more words >_>.

Did you read my post? Or just trying to save face or something?

[PKL]

I wish ignore function was literally ignore forever and didnt let me click. Anyway, Do you have to do this in every thread? Idk why I would have to save face. This is only discussion about a game. Jeez. Now I would appreciate if 99% of your posts weren't after my posts to call me biased or wrong in this/that. It's annoying and it's why I put you on my ignore list since way back.

EDIT: Sorry for this little war, Irysa. Back to your awesome topic.

Edited December 9, 2013 by PKL

[commonguard]

You posted after I responded to the OP's post where I explained the AI. And you just did it again. But somehow 99% of my posts are after yours calling you biased or wrong? Lmao. Okay.

I'd appreciate it if you stopped accusing me of doing things that you do.

[eclipse]

This argument is going nowhere. Sort it out over PM.

[PKL]

I don't think he can even PM me, eclipse.

You posted after I responded to the OP's post where I explained the AI. And you just did it again. But somehow 99% of my posts are after yours calling you biased or wrong? Lmao. Okay.

I'd appreciate it if you stopped accusing me of doing things that you do.

I meant in general. I have predicted every one of my posts being followed by one of yours in this section and i've been right. That's never a good thing.

[commonguard]

There isn't a single post of mine that comes directly after yours or even responds to yours in this thread (except those following the AI behaviour post which is basically you responding to me). I'm pretty they are all intended for the OP.

Most of my posts that do follow yours are responses that pertain specifically to me since many of them are either counters or responses to my own points in the H3 tier list topic, Ryan vs Linde topic, etc. No shit I would post after them. Good job "predicting". A regular Nostradamus over here. And if you had any intent of resolving whatever issue you have with me through PMs, here's a tip. Try PMing me instead of making public statements that aren't even true.

Oh right, you don't want to resolve this. You'd rather go on pretending I'm hounding you or something.

[General Horace]

haha I liked your reaction when MU critted the myrmidon in P4

you'll find it gets a lot easier when you get a better understanding of the AI, like others have said above, it lets you play a LOT more agressively

[dondon151]

Contrary to popular belief I'm pretty sure enemies don't break attack order if they have a guaranteed kill. Often times I've experienced "IS is trolling me" moments where units that will definitely kill just take their turns when it comes around. They do however break order when they have a chance to kill. So basically, if an enemy unit has 100% chance to kill MU they sometimes just wait around letting their allies take shots at your units and then when their turn comes around they kill MU.

yes they do; i've had this happen to me before in chapter 8.

Long story short AI targeting is about expected damage with specific thresholds thrown into the mix to make it harder for players to really exploit the AI.

yeah that last statement is bull. you can manipulate the AI with a 90+% success rate, which is much higher and much more consistent than in any other FE game. in FE6, for example, the order in which enemies move isn't even all that consistent.

Edited December 10, 2013 by dondon151

[Irysa]

I actually found out you can run multiple instances of OBS to record and stream at the same time so I was actually streaming and recording with a friend on Skype this time. Not too many interjections though.

[spoiler=Prologue 5]

Prologue 6 is being edited as we speak. Athena carries hard in both of these though.

[spoiler=Prologue 6]

My friend sucks and forgot to remind me to swap screens until like halfway in. Derp.

Also, 2 turned P-6, am I pro yet?

Edited December 10, 2013 by Irysa

[Junk]

so what do you think is harder so far h3 fe 12 or h5 fe 11 or hard mode fe 6?

[Irysa]

This. lol.

[Junk]

yeah i guess it is kind of obvious. But i consider h5 harder due to me not being able to get past c1

[eclipse]

In case that wasn't a subtle enough hint - PKL and commonguard, find something that isn't a SF public forum to sort this out, even if it means flat-out ignoring each other here.

[PKL]

In case that wasn't a subtle enough hint - PKL and commonguard, find something that isn't a SF public forum to sort this out, even if it means flat-out ignoring each other here.

Alright, I'll just ignore him.

Good job on P6, Irysa. Are you enjoying the puzzle like situations of the Prologue? During the vid, I was constantly saying to myself that you better deploy Athena over Wrys because that map is all offense. Good thing you figured out you needed to bench him :P. I can't wait to see you tackle Prologue 8...bawhahaha.

[Irysa]

This is the only "tutorial" I have ever played in any game where the design can actually scale properly with the difficulty. Prologue is still relevant on Lunatic because it actually is still teaching you how to play, but in a different way that is appropriate to Lunatic. That is really quite a marvel, so yes, I am enjoying these. FE11 H5 had some scenarios like this at the start of the game (one of the ones I liked the most was ch 3 chokepoint with navarre and julian) but they kinda die off once you realise how broken forged effective weapons and General!Sedgar/Wolf are.

BTW, how the hell do you do some of these maps if you have Gordin instead of Athena? <_<

Edited December 10, 2013 by Irysa

[RJWalker]

BTW, how the hell do you do some of these maps if you have Gordin instead of Athena? <_<

I'm guessing that you... don't. Welp.

[PKL]

This is the only "tutorial" I have ever played in any game where the design can actually scale properly with the difficulty. Prologue is still relevant on Lunatic because it actually is still teaching you how to play, but in a different way that is appropriate to Lunatic. That is really quite a marvel, so yes, I am enjoying these. FE11 H5 had some scenarios like this at the start of the game (one of the ones I liked the most was ch 3 chokepoint with navarre and julian) but they kinda die off once you realise how broken forged effective weapons and General!Sedgar/Wolf are.

BTW, how the hell do you do some of these maps if you have Gordin instead of Athena? <_<

Good to know you're enjoying it.

About that, you would have to play slower if you have Gordin, but it's still very much doable.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

About that, you would have to play slower if you have Gordin, but it's still very much doable.

Make vids of these plz(although the only difficult part is the bandit chapter I guess?)

This would actually be pretty helpful

Edited December 10, 2013 by Eradicator Boner

[PKL]

Make vids of these plz(although the only difficult part is the bandit chapter I guess?)

This would actually be pretty helpful

It would be like H2 Bow run but easier, because my avatar wouldn't be an archer.

[commonguard]

yes they do; i've had this happen to me before in chapter 8.

And I've seen instances in C17 and beyond where enemies will sometimes wait for their turn even if they have a guaranteed kill.

yeah that last statement is bull. you can manipulate the AI with a 90+% success rate, which is much higher and much more consistent than in any other FE game. in FE6, for example, the order in which enemies move isn't even all that consistent.

Firstly, your argument(?) doesn't counter mine. Second relevance of GBA FE6 AI to DS FE12 AI (vastly different btw)? Third, what are you even manipulating the AI to do at a 90+% success rate? Just saying you can manipulate the AI with 90+% means nothing.

[grandjackal]

BTW, how the hell do you do some of these maps if you have Gordin instead of Athena? <_<

Having another ranged fighter lets you have other people tank that can still get the kill since you have another chipper, then have others move forward. It's actually not that much harder.

That being said, Athena's still clearly better and easier.

Edited December 12, 2013 by grandjackal

[dondon151]

Firstly, your argument(?) doesn't counter mine.

yes it does. you cite a hypothesized AI mechanic as "thrown into the mix to make it harder for players to really exploit the AI." i maintained that that is not true.

Second relevance of GBA FE6 AI to DS FE12 AI (vastly different btw)?

FE6 is a counterexample of a game in which it really is (more) difficult to exploit the AI because the AI is far less predictable.

Third, what are you even manipulating the AI to do at a 90+% success rate? Just saying you can manipulate the AI with 90+% means nothing.

it means that for a given enemy phase scenario, i can predict correctly 90+% of the time what the enemy will do without having played out that scenario previously.

my god, arguing with you is excruciating. talk about wasted words.

Edited December 12, 2013 by dondon151