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Irysa

FE12 H3 Blind Playthrough Log

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[spoiler=To dondon151]

yes it does. you cite a hypothesized AI mechanic as "thrown into the mix to make it harder for players to really exploit the AI." i maintained that that is not true.

And I maintain it is. So now what? Can you disprove me?

To be clear are you referring to expected damage or thresholds or both?

FE6 is a counterexample of a game in which it really is (more) difficult to exploit the AI because the AI is far less predictable.

Have you tried to exploit AI (as in do something you favour not necessarily just predict) with unwanted support bonuses flying around in tight corridors while lacking statistical control that boosters and RP offer? Have you tried doing that when enemies don't have a target they can directly engage?

it means that for a given enemy phase scenario, i can predict correctly 90+% of the time what the enemy will do without having played out that scenario previously.

my god, arguing with you is excruciating. talk about wasted words.

Really? You can predict enemy movement to specific squares (again without enemies having a target they can directly engage and also from what square they attack from) 90+% of the time?

Have you tried the C2 long range Cav draw, C5 Sniper pull, C6 EP1 knight + mage positioning, C9 mage draw, C11 bandit + hunter pack pulls, C13 centre island dragon split pull that I described in the H3 tier list (this one is hard btw), etc?

You can predict with 90+% chance where all of these enemies will move even though they are not given direct targets? Can you even predict if every enemy will attack from 2U, 1U1L or 2L if they are currently not on the same rank or file as their target at 90+% odds? Now some are easier than others but try doing the C5 Sniper draw (on turn 3 for the 9 turn clear) with a save point and reloading from the save to see how often even the northwesternmost sniper attacks MU from the same square.

If you meant to say you can just predict what enemy attacks what playable character, yea... that's not really all that difficult but still if you have two units that are nearly identical and a level up occurs with a unit proccing DEF targets can change. So yea... 90+%... I'm assuming you pulled that number out of your ass.

Oh and nice backpedal from "manipulate" to "predict".

To something on topic, do you [irysa] plan to train the entire 7th platoon and swap them in and out or drop whoever turns out poorly?

Edit: Why is my name red now? How do I get it back to green?

Edited by commonguard

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[spoiler=Prologue 7]

no prologue 8 today because I'm still trying to beat it <_<

(3turned omg maybe turncounts might not suck)

To something on topic, do you [irysa] plan to train the entire 7th platoon and swap them in and out or drop whoever turns out poorly?

Probably. Cecille's str looks...iffy though especially for a cavalier. Mag growth seems amazing though (SM!Cecille with Levin Sword here I come!!!)

Edited by Irysa

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Instead of feeding Athena the last Archer kill, you could've fed that to Ava or Ryan lol. Cool that you 3 turned btw :D

Edited by PKL

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Well, if you played slowly, Cleric Ceccile might work out

And this is where I run away from efficiency players

*runs

tumblr_m2800uarB31qg2w8h.gif

proceed as usual

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man, i can't resist a good crack.

And I maintain it is. So now what? Can you disprove me?
To be clear are you referring to expected damage or thresholds or both?

of course i can disprove you. FE12 has the most manipulable AI in the series. go play some of the other games and see for yourself. it just so happens that this is good for FE12 because you need to do a lot of AI manipulation to get optimal results.

oh, wait, did i just say "manipulation" instead of "exploitation?" wow, you must be getting so confused right now because those are two different words with approximately the same meaning in this context. here, let me exacerbate your apparent bewilderment:

Oh and nice backpedal from "manipulate" to "predict".

they're the same goddamn thing. you manipulate the AI; you predict where it goes. you can't manipulate the AI without being able to predict it.

Have you tried to exploit AI (as in do something you favour not necessarily just predict) with unwanted support bonuses flying around in tight corridors while lacking statistical control that boosters and RP offer? Have you tried doing that when enemies don't have a target they can directly engage?

first of all, the RP and boosters are totally irrelevant. i never used the lunatic mode stat boosters and RP bonuses were never really variable when i played the game because i typically applied RP before strategizing. second, of course i've done all of this. don't let's forget that when this game first came out, i pioneered half (okay, kind of an overstatement) of the lunatic LTC strats. i discovered the AI manipulation tricks in the first place.

Really? You can predict enemy movement to specific squares (again without enemies having a target they can directly engage and also from what square they attack from) 90+% of the time?

You can predict with 90+% chance where all of these enemies will move even though they are not given direct targets? Can you even predict if every enemy will attack from 2U, 1U1L or 2L if they are currently not on the same rank or file as their target at 90+% odds? Now some are easier than others but try doing the C5 Sniper draw (on turn 3 for the 9 turn clear) with a save point and reloading from the save to see how often even the northwesternmost sniper attacks MU from the same square.

the vast majority of these predictions are irrelevant or useless, and most of these are random, as far as i can recall. (by the way, being able to identify what components of the AI are random is an important aspect of manipulation, predicting, and exploiting the AI - just to cover all of my bases. would you like for me to use more synonyms?)

If you meant to say you can just predict what enemy attacks what playable character, yea... that's not really all that difficult but still if you have two units that are nearly identical and a level up occurs with a unit proccing DEF targets can change. So yea... 90+%... I'm assuming you pulled that number out of your ass.

great, so you actually agree with me, it's just that you are too stubborn to admit it. the simple fact that you can spread out your units super thinly in this game and get away with it due to good AI manipulation, contrasted with the fact that the same tactic doesn't work nearly as well in other FE games, should have been proof enough in itself, but then you decided to go on some argument citing specific strategies that no one else could relate to. a cursory explanation of FE12 AI manipulation (see post #51) would have been sufficient for a player like irysa because past the general AI rules, the proof is in the pudding (or however that idiom is supposed to go).

EDIT: before eclipse tries to mod this post, let me point out that AI manipulation is a relevant topic to this thread.

Edited by dondon151

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Thanks, dondon. Don't mind the AI manipulation tactics, but the general tone of the entire thing is getting a wee bit edgy. I'd rather sit back and ask silly questions about the run.

Happy Holidays! Most of the people on these boards have a red name or a green name to celebrate! It'll revert, eventually.

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[spoiler=to dondon151]Okay, so this is mostly about subjective difficulty (and possibly a lack of understanding of definition of words). Pending the resolution of the following matter I may or may not hand this discussion of to another individual.

In what thesaurus are “predict” (guess) and “manipulate” (control) synonyms?

The remainder of your argument seems to hinge on the definition of words (which you are playing incredibly fast and loose with btw) so I won't bother responding to that until the above is resolved either.

I looked up a word that begins with the letter “i”. I don’t really know if it should concern anyone.

Edited by commonguard

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I can predict the outcome of a coin toss. That does not enable me to control said outcome.

dino-thesaurus.jpg

Your argument is invalid.

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No, if I close the coin at the right moment, assuming I do it at the proper timing, I can predict the result of coin flip at 100%. Why? because I rigged it, deal with it

This is basically FE12 AI in a nutshell

Edited by Eradicator Boner

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In what thesaurus are “predict” (guess) and “manipulate” (control) synonyms?

The remainder of your argument seems to hinge on the definition of words (which you are playing incredibly fast and loose with btw) so I won't bother responding to that until the above is resolved either.

they're not perfect synonyms, but context is important here. for example:

I can predict the outcome of a coin toss. That does not enable me to control said outcome.

that's because the outcome is random. a more relevant example is the GBA fire emblem RNG. you can predict its behavior given knowledge of the method used to generate random numbers and the initial seed. turns out you have both (though really the first component is unnecessary, but it follows from that that the RN sequence is static), so you can manipulate it.

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WHY DO THE MAGES HAVE TO PULL WITH EVERYTHING ELSE

CAEDA HAD 2 STR UPS

FUCK.

Don't be scared to retreat if needed. Remember there's a throne too. You can get away with no Wrys healing with a really aggresive strat. Though idk if you'd be able to execute it with a Fighter Avatar and inexperience...you're probably better off fielding Wrys. Remember also that the thieves are a good form of exp for your longterm units, so plan your strategy to feed your longterm units (Marth, Avatar, Luke, Ryan, Rody, Caeda). Anyway, have Caeda kill the mages during Player Phases. Checking the edge of enemy hand axe barbarian ranges and having Ryan chip one, while Merric chips the other is helpful too. Remember also that Cain can take a mage hit at full health, Athena too and Marth. So don't be afraid to weaken them with one of them and then finishing them off with someone else. Athena even ORKOs them. Good luck, i call that map the FE12beginner-destroyer map.

EDIT: Caeda is a longterm unit too.

Edited by PKL

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Okay on further testing, it's the silver axe bandits they pull with, not the extra hunter + bandit combo. This makes things a lot more managable, I was under the impression EVERYTHING pulled at once which was kind of impossible to deal with.

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Okay on further testing, it's the silver axe bandits they pull with, not the extra hunter + bandit combo. This makes things a lot more managable, I was under the impression EVERYTHING pulled at once which was kind of impossible to deal with.

Yeah. That's how they get pulled. It's a lot more manageable if you wait out the reinforcements and take care of them before tackling the silver axe bandit. There's also an "AI Trap" with Katarina and her thieves.

Edited by PKL

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they're not perfect synonyms, but context is important here. for example:

that's because the outcome is random. a more relevant example is the GBA fire emblem RNG. you can predict its behavior given knowledge of the method used to generate random numbers and the initial seed. turns out you have both (though really the first component is unnecessary, but it follows from that that the RN sequence is static), so you can manipulate it.

What you are describing is DETERMINING. Not predicting. Are we done here?

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Bad news: I'm dumb and was recording with my mic off for the majority of it. I did realise before I eventually got a successful run off, and will just show that instead, but you don't get to see me suffering as much (i know you were looking forward to it)

Anyway, watch this space.

EDIT: Vegas doesn't seem to want to render this video correctly....zzz

[spoiler=Prologue 8]

So much fail around this video and you dno't even get to see half of it. RIP. (I had to reencode this video like 4 times to get it to come out properly, fuck vegas)

Edited by Irysa

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Stupid AI is stupid. I may have to cut down on explanations or start like, dubbing over instead to save time since videos are starting to get kinda long...

[spoiler=Chapter 1]

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Cecille! She didn't keep that level though, right? That's lame. Also, good job figuring out that bow strat.

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She kept that level up. Cecille gonna be better than both Luke and Rody, just watch :VVVV

Edited by Irysa

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