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[Battle: FE9] Dio vs. Refa


Espinosa
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40 luck isn't a distinct quality of Ike/Oscar though... But yeah, the maximum stats really does draw a line between early and late joiners in terms of hit rates/dodging without silver forges.

Though it contributes to it. Like, in the averages meta, you have units with 70-80 Hit or so while Oscar has base 68 Avo only. Give him 40 Lck and Spd capped and suddenly you're staring at 94 base Avo with 90-100 Hit units only. To hit him in that meta, you have to bust out the forges, Heaven (eww) or Parity or a Sniper. Parity is obviously bad because you have to use lucia. Snipers die too quickly to leave their mark on Oscar/Ike usually, not to mention they're likely to sport Wishblade and Ragnell. You're gonna be facing 60 hit attacking one of them even with forges unless they have heaven support, which is rare and bad. My problem with it in max stats is that you can't really reliably kill Ike/Oscar ever, especially when you add Sol and Aether to the mix. For a careful player that calculates every hit and damage before making it, it was really stupid to see that I had literally no chance of winning since Turn 1 because of Ike/Oscar. I managed to do well, but only because of a Deadeye proc that put Oscar in his deathbed. Though, to get rid of him, I had to give up Tibarn's Full Guard in order to 2HKO him before he wakes up (which btw, doesnt work that way but u seem to have fallen deaf to what I said before about sleep mechanics), which I told you I knew it was gonna be a problem in the PM, because I knew his Kieran was likely to have that Silver Bow forge.

Edited by PKL
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Wait, what part of sleep mechanics do you mean? Counting both the active and passive turns? It seems only fair tbqh.

It's still not how the game does it. How to know what's fair? It's all subjective. For that instance, it might only have been fair for me to have an enemy Oscar asleep for 5 turns after being unable to kill him any other way. For someone else, it might have been unfair that I got a 15% chance proc in the first place. For another person, like Elieson, it might have been unfair to have Oscar asleep for 5 turns. We shouldn't be adapting game mechanics to one person's definition of "fair".

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It's unfair for whomever the sleep procs on, as low as the chance is (even with the Brave Bow), and the more we extend its effective time the more unfair it will be. Not a whole lot that's subjective about this.

I looked for my much earlier reasoning for the choices that I made (which I didn't remember so well when I had to apply them again as Deadeye refused to proc for many games in a row) and I found this:

Sleep seems to be 5 turns in PoR. I'll count both the turns spent attacking and defending, I think (in contrast to Stun which only matters when moving i.e. initiating attacks).

But sure enough, you can make it twice as long if you're pedantic about a round of the arena being a player phase AND an enemy phase.

Edited by Espinosa
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And Stun is practically useless like this. What I'm trying to say, is that, unfair or not, it doesn't matter, because that's how the game is. I also have a similar stance with Provoke/Shade. Those 2 skills shouldnt even be working here. They dont add depth at all, so idk why you wanted them in the first place.

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If we inclued deadeye procs 15ish percent as indisputable fair play, why don't we include the 9 crit on forges?

Edited by Elieson
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If we inclued deadeye procs 15ish percent as indisputable fair play, why don't we include the 9 crit on forges?

If Deadeye fishing is unfair, why do we roll an RN for crit or for missing hits? Is a 2% crit any more fair than a fished 15% Deadeye?

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I don't think deadeye fishing is unfair. I've been all for adding crit on weaponry in the past. It's fishing for skill prcs if you have under 30% activation, which most units have.

Pkl, why dont you outline everything that you disagree with (in current standings), in a bullet list, so we can approach it all as a collective. I'm too the point where I can't even follow what you think we should change.

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My stance is that the mechanics should mirror the game completely.

Shade/Provoke wouldn't work on us because we've seen Shinon as an enemy and he doesn't force you to attack him. We are not an AI. Also, Shade is inconsistent too, so if we were an AI, it'd be almost 50/50. While Provoke seems consistent in making enemies attack that one unit over everyone else, Shade does weird things with Ilyana. What I think should happen with them is that they be left as an AI only thing, making them useless as it should be.

Leave Sleep and Stun mechanics how they are in the game. Only the player's turns count in game not player+enemy.

Forges having 9 Crit im not opposed to either. As long as there's no Japanese 255 Criticals...characters won't break 0% crit in max stats with them anyway. It might be too much of a random factor in averages, not sure.

Unrelated to game mechanics:

Nerf EarthxEarth or IkexOscar to be more reasonable.

Also, I don't think SOYO'ing this might be a good idea, but you could try it lol.

EDIT: An idea just came to my head. What if we had a limited amount of money to build our teams?

EDIT 2: By that I mean that we'd assign weapons and characters an amount of money to pay and we'd have to pay for them during our teambuilding process. It could limit having too many top tiers in one team! Haha. I know it's a crazy idea, but it would sure be fun!

Edited by PKL
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Shade/Provoke wouldn't work on us because we've seen Shinon as an enemy and he doesn't force you to attack him. We are not an AI. Also, Shade is inconsistent too, so if we were an AI, it'd be almost 50/50. While Provoke seems consistent in making enemies attack that one unit over everyone else, Shade does weird things with Ilyana. What I think should happen with them is that they be left as an AI only thing, making them useless as it should be.

i agree with this. heck, shade mechanics would be more accurate if you could only attack a shade unit if you would KO or otherwise do the most damage, or something.

Leave Sleep and Stun mechanics how they are in the game. Only the player's turns count in game not player+enemy.

i agree with this, too.

Forges having 9 Crit im not opposed to either. As long as there's no Japanese 255 Criticals...characters won't break 0% crit in max stats with them anyway. It might be too much of a random factor in averages, not sure.

this doesn't matter in max stats, but i'm totally opposed to 9 crit forges otherwise. FE9 already has a lot of dumb luck-related stuff, and throwing single digit crit rates into the mix is just going to exacerbate raging.

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Seeing as Shade is.defaultly on a Thief and Mage, I imagine that it'd be pretty common to do more damage to them than others.

Now custom skills meta is another story.

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[spoiler=see teams here]

Dio's team

tpz7.pngcq4w.pngz3ve.pngh8qq.pnggfwk.png

vs.

Refa's team!

hrwh.png8h5g.pngsxd5.pngoi2g.pngk35x.png

Turn 8.

cq4w.pngvs k35x.png

Dio's Oscar (Silver Lance) attacks Refa's Rolf (Brave Bow)!

26 dmg 89% hit 0% crit 26% Sol

(37 94 75 37)

Rolf receives 26/45 damage!

Both parties survive the fight.

Dio                                  Refa

Ike 52/52                            Ike 52/52
Oscar 56/56                          Mist 60/60
Kieran 0/57                          Oscar 0/49
Marcia 50/50                         Boyd 60/60
Rolf 0/45                            Rolf 19/45

Refa acts next.

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Rolf, show Marcia your heart is true and shoot her wih your Brave Bow! That'll solve all the problems, I guarantee it.

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[spoiler=see teams here]

Dio's team

tpz7.pngcq4w.pngz3ve.pngh8qq.pnggfwk.png

vs.

Refa's team!

hrwh.png8h5g.pngsxd5.pngoi2g.pngk35x.png

Turn 9.

h8qq.pngvs k35x.png

Refa's Rolf (Brave Bow) attacks Dio's Marcia (Wishblade)!

Marcia activates Vantage!

19 dmg 72% hit 0% crit

(94 80 25)

Marcia misses!

Rolf counterattacks!

17x2 dmg 100% hit 20% crit 13% Deadeye

(83 8 15 65)

Critical hit!

Marcia receives 50/50 damage!

Marcia is KO'd!

Dio                                  Refa

Ike 52/52                            Ike 52/52
Oscar 56/56                          Mist 60/60
Kieran 0/57                          Oscar 0/49
Marcia 0/50                          Boyd 60/60
Rolf 0/45                            Rolf 19/45

Dio acts next.

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[spoiler=see teams here]

Dio's team

tpz7.pngcq4w.pngz3ve.pngh8qq.pnggfwk.png

vs.

Refa's team!

hrwh.png8h5g.pngsxd5.pngoi2g.pngk35x.png

Turn 10.

cq4w.pngvs k35x.png

Dio's Oscar (Silver Lance) attacks Refa's Rolf (Brave Bow)!

26 dmg 89% hit 0% crit 26% Sol

(94 65 10 54)

Rolf receives 19/45 damage!

Rolf is KO'd!

Dio                                  Refa

Ike 52/52                            Ike 52/52
Oscar 56/56                          Mist 60/60
Kieran 0/57                          Oscar 0/49
Marcia 0/50                          Boyd 60/60
Rolf 0/45                            Rolf 0/45

Refa acts next.

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[spoiler=see teams here]

Dio's team

tpz7.pngcq4w.pngz3ve.pngh8qq.pnggfwk.png

vs.

Refa's team!

hrwh.png8h5g.pngsxd5.pngoi2g.pngk35x.png

Turn 11.

cq4w.pngvs oi2g.png

Refa's Boyd (Silver Axe) attacks Dio's Oscar (Silver Lance)!

26 dmg 77% hit 0% crit 25% Adept

(21)

Boyd activates Adept!

(21 35 12)

Oscar receives 26/56 damage!

(17 13 17)

Oscar receives 26/56 damage!

Oscar counterattacks!

28 dmg 89% hit 0% crit 26% Sol

( 98 95 82 46)

Oscar misses!

Both parties survive the fight.

Dio                                  Refa

Ike 52/52                            Ike 52/52
Oscar 4/56                           Mist 60/60
Kieran 0/57                          Oscar 0/49
Marcia 0/50                          Boyd 60/60
Rolf 0/45                            Rolf 0/45

Dio acts next.

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[spoiler=see teams here]

Dio's team

tpz7.pngcq4w.pngz3ve.pngh8qq.pnggfwk.png

vs.

Refa's team!

hrwh.png8h5g.pngsxd5.pngoi2g.pngk35x.png

Turn 12.

cq4w.pngvs 8h5g.png

Dio's Oscar (Silver Lance) attacks Refa's Mist (Runesword)!

30 dmg 85% hit 0% crit 26% Sol

(24 85 59 52)

Mist receives 30/60 damage!

Mist counterattacks!

Mist activates Resolve!

Mist activates Wrath!

28 dmg 65% hit 57% crit

(78 99 9)

Mist misses!

Mist attacks again!

(52 44 41)

Critical hit!

Oscar receives 4/56 damage!

Mist recovers 4/60 HP!

Oscar is KO'd!

Dio                                  Refa

Ike 52/52                            Ike 52/52
Oscar 0/56                           Mist 34/60
Kieran 0/57                          Oscar 0/49
Marcia 0/50                          Boyd 60/60
Rolf 0/45                            Rolf 0/45

Refa acts next.

Edited by Espinosa
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