Sifer Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) So, some people on this forum have been doubting my of the actions, I dont want to bias you so here is an account of the events so you can decide the morality and the alignment of the actions. So this is from a 2nd edition module, can't remember the exact name. We were 3rd level quick rundown of alignments neutral is in between the two extremes good=think of morales evil-=tno morales lawful=for order chaotic prizes individuality So in this module, the party arrives at a dirt poor farming village. And there were all sad looking. So we inquired about the jobs they had for us adventures, I thought they are poor so there is not much for them to offer/steal from. So anyways, we talked to the town's elder. The elder said the land was cursed to not grow crops go to the druids to get the cure. *Fast traveling to druids. My youngest brother's first D&D character died by being swallowed by a frog. Druid said here take these magical waterskins to cure the land. *Fast traveling home Due to bad rolling, we kept on running into orcs, so the DM just decreed there is an orc encampment nearby. Along the way we met gypsies , they claimed they cursed the land to extort the village of a mountain of nonexistent gold the village had to pay off the ogier for the Pegasus that was lost for one reason or another. *Party split up, 1/3 of group went to find the Pegasus, 2/3 of the party disagreed and headed to the village The paladin came back with 2 bloodied, but alive PC, there were both out for a few days. Cleric was out for 2 days the mage 9 days. The pegasus was not recovered. So we asked why is our only two magical members in our party knocked out? Pally said they tried to take the horse for themselves and that was against the contract with the gypsies also assault on the gypsies, that could have played a part in the matter. (fast forwarding) so in order to get our mage and cleric out of prison in the village. We were contracted to get rid of the gypsy threat and the orcs to free them from village arrest. So the cleric woke out of her coma. After 2 hours of thinking of different plans. It was decided that we were to assault some orc scouts. Raise the scouts from the dead as zombies and make them think the gypsies are doing the necromancy. So the orcs all 130 of them gathered and assaulted the gypsy camp. And when the battle was almost done the party came in and killed all surviving parties and proceeded to loot their corpses as per standard adventuring procedure. Obviously when we came back to the camp we blamed the necromancy on the gypsies and the paladin had no reason to doubt our word. So what alignment would you say our party actions were excluding the retrieving the Pegasus part and why [eliminated lawful evil orcs,] [eliminated chaotic neutral gypsies] [raised orc as zombies=neutral] (player's handbook says that it is not basicly a good act.) [all of the above done under contract= lawful] Edited February 18, 2014 by sifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEnd Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 You killed some orcs, raised them as undead to send one party against the other, then killed all survivors, looted their corpses and escaped responsibility by putting the blame on them. Sounds pretty evil to me. On law/chaos, you did turn on the gypsies after all, though not on the village... I'll go with neutral here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euklyd Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 >Genocide of gypsies and stealing they're stuff ITT: literally Hitler - So, you're PCs are all Hitler. - Hitler is LE. ∴ You're actions were LE. logic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Mage-King Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 True Neutral, maybe CE. In no way was this a Lawful act, since, in addition to not following a PERSONAL code of law, you broke at least one contract. If the orcs were doing nothing worthy of extermination, eliminating them was an Evil act, while the gypsies were similar. tl;dr: Your paladin should be a Fighter with no class features. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euklyd Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Paladin wasn't involved, though, I think. It was decided that we were to assault some orc scouts. Raise the scouts from the dead as zombies and make them think the gypsies are doing the necromancy. So the orcs all 130 of them gathered and assaulted the gypsy camp. And when the battle was almost done the party came in and killed all surviving parties and proceeded to loot their corpses as per standard adventuring procedure. Obviously when we came back to the camp we blamed the necromancy on the gypsies and the paladin had no reason to doubt our word. I could be wrong, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrightBow Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) That Paladin should really put that "Detect Evil" to work every now and then. Why does a Paladin work with a bunch of thieves and murderers? Anyway, it is not Chaotic due to the calculated nature of the act and not Lawful because the group clearly doesn't care about agreements beyond the "not getting caught" part and doesn't even bother with "technical" truths but just flat out lies. Giving the damage that the gypsies did, resorting to lethal violence might still be neutral but attacking and murdering hundreds of orcs with no other excuse but to raise an army is about as evil as it gets. So yeah, Neutral Evil. Btw, why did anyone vote Lawful? They steal horses and lie to shift blame and to cover their bloody tracts. What of this spells lawful? And how did you raise any dead when the wizard and the cleric were imprisoned? Are there even level 1-2 spells that can create undead without a time limit? Edited February 13, 2014 by BrightBow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Mage-King Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Paladin didn't fall, then. Still, my point stands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Mage-King Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 That Paladin should really put that "Detect Evil" to work every now and then. Why does a Paladin work with a bunch of thieves and murderers? Anyway, it is not Chaotic due to the calculated nature of the act and not Lawful because the group clearly doesn't care about agreements beyond the "not getting caught" part and doesn't even bother with "technical" truths but just flat out lies. Giving the damage that the gypsies did, resorting to lethal violence might still be neutral but attacking and murdering hundreds of orcs with no other excuse but to raise an army is about as evil as it gets. So yeah, Neutral boring-selfserving Evil. Nah. Chaotic people can plan, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifer Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) Paladin wasn't involved, though, I think. I could be wrong, though. The paladin was not involved, he was to prepare the defenses of the town, when the group left to scout the orc encampment. He was true to he alignment, he could only be in one place at a time and decided that it was hard to scout in plate and better to train the villagers for the fight ahead and PRAY that the party did the "right thing" and scout. He had no way of knowing the party practiced necromancy, zombie corpses were found at the gypsy village, the cleric in question was never known to practice necromancy before. --- Orcs are Lawful evil in 1st ed D&D they will have eventually find about the village, it was unknown to them at the time but once the orcs found the village they would eitheir pillage it or enslave the village, it is their “nature” to do such things. -- Only the cleric and the mage made a pact with the gypsies, the paladin tagged along to make sure they were good on their bargain. They wanted the Pegasus for themselves, and made it clear to the paladin. They attacked and killed the guards, The paladin brought them to the town for justice since they were the lawful permanent inhabitants of the area, the mission assigned for the cleric and mage ( the only two parties involved) absolution was to cure the land and remove the orc threat. We completed the assignment with minimal risk to the party to absolve the party members of their crimes. Any other questions? I like the discussions. Looks like the group is NE at this point. Edited February 13, 2014 by sifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euklyd Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Seems like a willfully ignorant Paladin, but whatever. He really ought to be aware of the sorts of people in his party, though Btw, why did anyone vote Lawful? They steal horses and lie to shift blame and to cover their bloody tracts. What of this spells lawful? I was voting it for the sake of my terrible joke; I am also confused about the others. FTR, I would say the actions were either CE or CN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrightBow Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) The paladin was not involved, he was to prepare the defenses of the town, when the group left to scout the orc encampment. He was true to he alignment, he could only be in one place at a time and decided that it was hard to scout in plate and better to train the villagers for the fight ahead and PRAY that the party did the "right thing" and scout. He had no way of knowing the party practiced necromancy, zombie corpses were found at the gypsy village. --- Orcs are Lawful evil in 1st ed D&D they will have eventually find about the village, it was unknown to them at the time and either pillage it or enslave the village, it is their “nature.” The alignment of an sentient creature is irrelevant. The only thing that might make them valid targets are their actual actions. And it was the party who attacked and murdered them. They murdered over 100 people not because they were causing trouble but just because the group needed a few convenient bodies. Murdering people out of mere convenience is Evil with an capital E. Also, you said you were playing 2d edition and not first. I don't know anything about 1st edition alignment rules but I doubt they say that it is okay to cast Detect Evil onto a market place and kill everyone who glows. There needs to be an actual evil act involved. Killing people who didn't do anything is murder. Also, shouldn't the Paladin stop associating with the group if only because they were stealing horses and breaking contracts? Edited February 13, 2014 by BrightBow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifer Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) · Hidden by Balcerzak, February 14, 2014 - No reason given Hidden by Balcerzak, February 14, 2014 - No reason given double post Edited February 13, 2014 by sifer Link to comment
Sifer Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 The alignment of an sentient creature is irrelevant. The only thing that might make them valid targets are their actual actions. And it was the party who attacked and murdered them. They murdered over 100 people not because they were causing trouble but just because the group needed a few convenient bodies. Murdering people out of mere convenience is Evil with an capital E. Also, you said you were playing 2d edition and not first. I don't know anything about 1st edition alignment rules but I doubt they say that it is okay to cast Detect Evil onto a market place and kill everyone who glows. There needs to be an actual evil act involved. Killing people who didn't do anything is murder. Also, shouldn't the Paladin stop associating with the group if only because they were stealing horses and breaking contracts? The gypsies were extorting the town. The village was to poor to relocate, so it was a death sentence if they did not act, and the pegasus was released to the wild, the party reasoned there was no way to be sure if the gypsies can or would remove the curse the land if the pegasus was retrieved and so the neutrals left for the village, but the neurtrals that started to lean toward the evil side ( cleric and mage) tried to keep the pegasi for themselves, the palindin stopped that. ---- The paladin did not know, he was in the town, prepping the defense. He could not monitor the parties activities since they would both split up to scout the area. He only had to rely on what the party said and the battlefield he scouted in the aftermath of the battle confirmed what the party said. The party was neutral so there was no pings on detect evil. This was 2nd level adventurer, so the paladin did not know everyone's true personalities yet and no drastic moral choices occurred within his view. -- Whoops the cleric woke up a day afterward and we convinced the mayor that we needed a healer to combat the orcs, that is how we got the cleric out and the raise dead spell. The mage was out for 8 more days and stayed imprisoned to make sure the party didn't flee. -- I suppose some blame could be layed on the village, if they did not assign the removal of the orcs and gypsies we would have just jumped shipped and left the town. But then the fields would be barren and the orcs would raze the camp. The village was looking out for its own survival too. But the party did go the violent route of eliminating both factions. --- It also helps to know that in the future the paladin did duel to the death the cleric and won and banished the mage from the party. The paladin so far has not caught on to the neutralness of the party. And pretty much has shifted the party to neutral leaning toward good after the new party members joined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyron Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 True Neutral, maybe CE. In no way was this a Lawful act, since, in addition to not following a PERSONAL code of law, you broke at least one contract. If the orcs were doing nothing worthy of extermination, eliminating them was an Evil act, while the gypsies were similar. tl;dr: Your paladin should be a Fighter with no class features. i would say neutral evil, neutral good if the gypsies and the orcs were both evil, as in all instances they took the route that they felt would serve them best. the paladin i agree should become fallen seeing as he tried to steal the pegasus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifer Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) The paladin tried to keep the deal with the gypsies. He herd scheming from the cleric and mage and relayed that info to the gypsies to make sure they were informed of the clerics and mage intent. The gypsies attacked the party since they herd betrayal. then the party fought in self defense and won. The Paladin wanted to go to the gypsy camp and explain the situation. The cleric and mage refused. Battle started. The paladin knocked out cleric and mage. freed the Pegasus into the wild since human life was more sacred and to stand the villages justice. So the paladin was not wrong, I think. I do believe the mage and cleric knocked out a few gypsy guards somewhere before the paladin herd the scheming here but my memory is hazy here. sorry for not revealing this info earlier, it has been a year or so and I was being brief in the intro. Lawful evil it seems now Edited February 13, 2014 by sifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 How do those gypsies qualify as neutral? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrhesia Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 You caused the deaths of a shitton of human children lol you literally even specified 'no survivors' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifer Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 How do those gypsies qualify as neutral? The gypsies told us in no uncertain terms that they cursed the land to become unfertilized. In order to remove the curse, the gypsies demanded a mountain of gold in ransom, which the, already dirt poor farmers did not have. Also it was unknown if they were able to remove the curse at all or keep their word. They were themselves hostage by an ogier who wanted a Pegasus though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 So, some people on this forum have been doubting my of the actions, this is the best motivation for a thread a+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifer Posted February 15, 2014 Author Share Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) So it looks like the forum decided that using the orcs as a tool to slaughter the gypsies, then slaughtering the remnants of the faction a... neutral evil act The blame can be placed entirely on the paladin. If it were not for him, we would have left town and let the gypsies, villagers and the orcs settle things out for themselves. Well, it was well worth it, my thief obtained a ring of invisibility and paired with my boots of elvenkind(sneaking). She is now a silent backstabbing bitch killer. Nah, she leans more toward chaotic good, she is a team player. Next thread will be... what alignment is self defense while trespassing? ( I was jacking this high wizards stuff) funny how that happened... it was all due to misinformation. it wont be a thread Edited February 15, 2014 by sifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 chaotic, good-evil depending on motivations for trespassing i guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 You're an opportunistic scoundrel Basically like somebody playing a video game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrhesia Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 what alignment is self defense while trespassing? ( I was jacking this high wizards stuff) this is the most depressing thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifer Posted February 15, 2014 Author Share Posted February 15, 2014 Well I was doing the "thieves challenge" module and I did best not to kill everyone, apparently the person that gave me this quest gave me incorrect information, leading me into a run in with the archmage who was not supposed to be there. He fired first. Not much of a defense though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 he was a shit "archmage" if he fired first and you had the opportunity to defend yourself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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