Do the Jugdral games have a good plot?

[rexcalibur]

So what does everyone think of the plots of Genealogy of the Holy War and Thracia 776? I honestly loved FE4's plot and how Thracia added so much more to it. Even with the contradictions, I thought it was really interesting.

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

Probably equal or better than PoR, which is widely considered the best

Dat FE4 chapter five

[Soledai]

They're my favorite plots in the series, granted, I did not like what Thracia did with Trabant in FE5, retconning it so that it was Manfloy's plan to attack Cuan in Yied Desert, that's the only thing that still bothers me. Also, there were some unexplored points here and there(Rivough comes to mind, So does Cyas) but other than that, they were great.

[Sasori]

I liked the story in the Jugdral games, but I do think gen 1 as a lot better with that then gen 2.

[Silver Lightning]

I like the stories of all the FEs I have played, but I think FE4's was the most politically intriguing to me, a little more so than FE9 or 10. In that respect, its one of my absolute favorites. After playing and enjoying it, I really want some sort of remake (and localization!) for this game as unlikely as it is.

Can't say much about FE5 though seeing as I haven't played it yet (I'm a little scared to try).... >_<

[RJWalker]

I'll say that it's very interesting but there are problems in how it is told within the games themselves.You kinda have to read the background material and interviews too.

[rexcalibur]

They're my favorite plots in the series, granted, I did not like what Thracia did with Trabant in FE5, retconning it so that it was Manfloy's plan to attack Cuan in Yied Desert, that's the only thing that still bothers me. Also, there were some unexplored points here and there(Rivough comes to mind, So does Cyas) but other than that, they were great.

Yeah, I agree with you on Trabant. I think I remember reading something about how Alvis wasn't interested in women until he met Deirdre but Cyas seems to deny that...

I'll say that it's very interesting but there are problems in how it is told within the games themselves.You kinda have to read the background material and interviews too.

That's true. The background materials and interview add a lot of interesting elements to the story.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I liked gen 1, but there are a lot of part in gen 2 that is unsatisfying

[BrightBow]

Yeah, I agree with you on Trabant. I think I remember reading something about how Alvis wasn't interested in women until he met Deirdre but Cyas seems to deny that...

I don't think so.

Personally I interpreted the quote in the designer notes that said "From then on, there was no sight of a woman around Alvis." as more of him having a messed up relationship with women in general, due to the influence of his rapist father.

I think that having a secret affair with an subordinate fits right in with that picture.

Edited February 14, 2014 by BrightBow

[TheEnd]

I liked the story in the Jugdral games, but I do think gen 1 as a lot better with that then gen 2.

That isn't even a matter of opinion. Gen 1 is what makes you care about gen 2 at all.

But more on topic, FE4's first gen is beautiful and FE5 is interesting alright.

I don't think so. I interpreted the quote in the designer notes that said "From then on, there was no sight of a woman around Alvis." as more of him having a messed up relationship with women in general, due to the influence of his rapist father.

I think that having a secret affair with an subordinate fits right in with that picture.

How old was Cyas, again? If he's older than Diadora's children...

[BrightBow]

How old was Cyas, again? If he's older than Diadora's children...

Well, Serenes Forest says he is 27.

http://www.serenesforest.net/general/age.html#fe5

I don't know what it's source is, though.

[Guy Starwind]

Yes they have great plots. I'll admit I like FE4's plot more than FE5's. Yes I know it's in the same world and what not but I just couldn't get into FE5 as much as 4. Also like others are saying gen 1 has the best plot.

[Soledai]

I'd also like to add that I would've liked to have seen more of the Lopt cult do more... cult stuff, I mean the child sacrifices were a sufficient enough indicator that these guys were bad news, but that's basically all they did, kidnapping Julia notwithstanding... Oh, and the petrification thing with Eyvel

How old was Cyas, again? If he's older than Diadora's children...

I'm not really sure Cyas' age either, but he does have this vibe of being the eldest of Alvis' children

But I'm more interested in how that sentence was gonna end... <_<''

[Baldrick]

...Then he's the true emperor. It's a plot point that Seliph has a more legitimate claim than Julius because he is older iirc.

[RJWalker]

...Then he's the true emperor. It's a plot point that Seliph has a more legitimate claim than Julius because he is older iirc.

Though he is the oldest child of Deirdre, the one who carries Naga blood as does Seliph. Seliph doesn't screw over Cyas, by the looks of his ending in FE5.

[Soledai]

...Then he's the true emperor. It's a plot point that Seliph has a more legitimate claim than Julius because he is older iirc.

Wait, I know that since Alvis became emperor, his progeny can stake a claim, but I always figured that since Deirdre was the Imperial Princess, it was kind of down to being her child, or bearing her blood.

[TheEnd]

I'm not really sure Cyas' age either, but he does have this vibe of being the eldest of Alvis' children

I shouldn't have skipped posts

Because it's pretty obvious that Cyas is older than Diadora's kids

Even because everyone who meets Diadora apparently falls madly in love with her, cheating wouldn't have been an option

...Then he's the true emperor. It's a plot point that Seliph has a more legitimate claim than Julius because he is older iirc.

Narga blood, etc.

[Soledai]

I shouldn't have skipped posts

Because it's pretty obvious that Cyas is older than Diadora's kids

Even because everyone who meets Diadora apparently falls madly in love with her, cheating wouldn't have been an option

Yeah, I wasn't trying to be smug by saying something like "Of course he's older, just look at him", so I just worded that rather cautiously

Diadora is the deathbringer, everyone she gets involved with either dies or gets hurt... usually dies.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Soledai

[rexcalibur]

I don't think so.

Personally I interpreted the quote in the designer notes that said "From then on, there was no sight of a woman around Alvis." as more of him having a messed up relationship with women in general, due to the influence of his rapist father.

I think that having a secret affair with an subordinate fits right in with that picture.

Oh that makes sense. I read this fanfiction once about how Cyas felt towards his father but it is unfortunately never touched upon in Thracia. Cyas had potential to be a very interesting character.

[The Void]

...Then he's the true emperor. It's a plot point that Seliph has a more legitimate claim than Julius because he is older iirc.

Sigurd and Deirdre were married.

Arvis and Aida weren't.

Edited February 15, 2014 by The Void

[Fried Chicken]

Sigurd and Deirdre were married.

Arvis and Aida weren't.

If it is about legitimacy, then Deirdre shouldn't have any relevance because she was illegitimate, and the more or less legitimate Naga heir would have been Linoan, without taking into account Major Blood, but if we take it into account then Seliph should surrender the throne to Julia... And never does.

I'm not sure what approach FE Jugdral takes with inheritence, but it is messed up.

If Julia gets a male child with Major Naga, I am pretty sure he wouldn't take the throne for Seliph's own son would have a non negociable claim on it, because he is Seliph's son, and we don't care anymore about Naga blood.

The situation arising if they don't breed together that is...

I sort of find it ironic that Seliph wants Jugdral to break free from Crusaders and God-dragon's worship when his claim on the throne is based on his Naga blood.

Maybe it is intentional, his child won't inherit major Naga and it would be a fraud to under the old system to have him inherit the throne.

I don't think so.

Personally I interpreted the quote in the designer notes that said "From then on, there was no sight of a woman around Alvis." as more of him having a messed up relationship with women in general, due to the influence of his rapist father.

I think that having a secret affair with an subordinate fits right in with that picture.

Not sure if it is true, Aida isn't simply the woman whom Arvis slept with, but it is said in narration of chapter 5 of FE4 and mentioned by Dorias she was Arvis' advisor/confident/right-hand person. If he really had messed up relationship with women, why take one as his second? Besides, for a Duke who is supposed to "hate" women, Velthomer army had two female ranking officers, Vaha and Aida. Apart from Silesse, I don't recall any army having such a high female quota.

I interpreted the quote from designers, made before Cyas even existed as something said to point out Deirdre's uniqueness by showing down our throats that Arvis really loved her. Really. Really!

Or maybe you meant by "messed up relationship" that he couldn't get a fiancée/wife to which I would say that getting one of his general/friend/whatever pregnant and not acknowledging their son could fit the mold, but what about keeping her in this position long after the incident? It looks like they broke up but remained on good terms , in a modern sense (I wouldn't trust the woman I dumped to betray Leptor and bringing Sigurd to me if I had issues with her). It was not as messed up as it could appear.

About the plot of FE4, the first gen was politically interesting but it sort of fell down with Deirdre, I mean I would really have wanted to know how Arvis planned to unify the continent without finding the Barhara Princess and marrying her, it just seems... a kind of shortcut. Gen2 was meh, due to stupidity from the whole cast at not guessing who Julia is but... well, each game has its own moment of dumb logic.

FE5's plot is better handled, I think, apart the scene where Manfroy puts a "just as planned" concerning Trabant, maybe because the chapters and gameplay is different, like you don't have ellipses of 6 months (chapter 20 notwithstanding) where it is sort of difficult to explain anything concretly without resorting to narration.

But they could have done something concerning Berdo/Veld/ that guy.

Still, it brings plot points like

• Cyas (Seliph hunts Arvis because he murdered Sigurd, Leif does the same with Trabant, why shouldn't Cyas do the same "you killed my dad now die?" and he brings another source of Loptyr blood + mayhem in Velthomer (his ending doesn't specify if he became Duke, but he has Major Fala, über charisma (10 LS) and is known worldwide, it doesn't matter which minion Seliph put in charge it's going to be messy)),
• Marita/Galzus (Shanan has more legitimacy to rule Isaach because... Long hair? Galzus is the child of Mananan's eldest brat and got Major Blood (but he fights with axes and has no long shiny hair))
• Linoan (Seliph is the son of one Kurt's bastard child, and has the same degree of Naga blood than Linoan. If legitimacy is obtained through marriage, then Seliph has none due to Deirdre and he can't argue the Naga blood shared with someone who actually can use it. Good thing Julia is busy doing whatever.)

to the perfect scene of FE4 and because it might imply that the previous playable cast could be seen as villains it's what is most interesting plotwise.

A bit like Miccy VS Ike, who's the real baddie?

Oh and

...Then he's the true emperor. It's a plot point that Seliph has a more legitimate claim than Julius because he is older iirc.

What about

Azmur:
Lord Narga's lineage through Saint Heim must not be allowed to perish! I want the two of you to bear a son as soon as possible!
If the child inherits the power of Narga, he shall be Prince of Grandbell.
And once I pass on he'll become the King of Grandbell.
Lord Alvis, until the boy is old enough to rule, you shall be the provisional king. Do raise him well.
I hope you understand all of what I've told you. (cough.. Ah...ack..)

What sort of legitimacy could you have that overrides King Azmur's words?

Sure, he talked about a child having a bit of Naga blood in him, but that doesn't mean Seliph, it means the son (Sorry Julia) of those two who has Naga Power.

I interpret the "power of Narga" as having major blood, which both boys don't have. Only criteria remaining is being the child of ARvis and Deirdre, and that would be Julius.

By the way, good job to ignore the Naga lineage residing in Tahra old man. Good job. Maybe Mananan took lessons from him to eradicate the first Odo branch in Rivough, because ignoring tjem couldn't work any longer?

[Sartek]

What sort of legitimacy could you have that overrides King Azmur's words?

Sure, he talked about a child having a bit of Naga blood in him, but that doesn't mean Seliph, it means the son (Sorry Julia) of those two who has Naga Power.

I interpret the "power of Narga" as having major blood, which both boys don't have. Only criteria remaining is being the child of ARvis and Deirdre, and that would be Julius.

By the way, good job to ignore the Naga lineage residing in Tahra old man. Good job. Maybe Mananan took lessons from him to eradicate the first Odo branch in Rivough, because ignoring tjem couldn't work any longer?

Azmur didn't know that Diadora was married to Sigurd and that Seliph was a heir to the throne.

Edit: nor that there was a risk that Julius would be the vessel of Lopt

Edited February 15, 2014 by Sartek

[RJWalker]

I don't think there's any confirmation that Saias has Loptyr blood. We already know that holy blood is not always inherited.

[Fried Chicken]

I don't think there's any confirmation that Saias has Loptyr blood. We already know that holy blood is not always inherited.

(By the way, isn't the rule that a Major Blood holder will always have Holy Blood carriers but it fails to get inherited when a Minor breeds? Like in Hilda and Andrei's cases?)

I do hope it is a bit different for Loptyr blood, otherwise Manfroy would have been greatly disturbed if Cigyun who comes 56(random number) generations after Maira failed to get it.

(I found Cigyun's children, now they just have to- Wait how's that they don't bear Loptyr blood?! Curse you Nargaaaa!)

Loptyr transmission should be a sort of plot point, like Linoan's Naga blood since her family comes from a line of Naga descendants, the old man in Chapter 21 says they are direct descendants of the Holy Warrior, we have nearly 40(random again) generations between Heim and Linoan here so it could have vanished way earlier and never did.

Azmur didn't know that Diadora was married to Sigurd and that Seliph was a heir to the throne.

Edit: nor that there was a risk that Julius would be the vessel of Lopt

He didn't know about Seliph but would that mean that the words spoken to Arvis were void? Azmur words, as misguided as they are, are the only official transmission of the title of Grandbell's ruler

In modern eras we could argue that Azmur was saying nonsense because he ignored Seliph's existence, and yet Arvis relied on this nonsense to name Julius as Prince of Grandbell. Hence, the misinformation could be overlooked provided Arvis was acting in good faith (which he was obviously doing).

I know I am trying to stretch the thing a little bit, but the main point is that even if FE4 plot tries to show that Seliph is the right ruler of his Kingdom, you could argue more or less honestly that it might not be the case, and it is totally not since Julia is but well... You can argue with FE4's data and with FE5's (Tahra rulers are direct descendants of Holy Warrior Heim) that a Baldo Major, even if he has Minor Naga shouldn't get to rule over Grandbell.

Still, if we follow Seliph's logic, Galzus should be Isaach rightful King.

[Soledai]

If it is about legitimacy, then Deirdre shouldn't have any relevance because she was illegitimate, and the more or less legitimate Naga heir would have been Linoan, without taking into account Major Blood, but if we take it into account then Seliph should surrender the throne to Julia... And never does.

I'm not sure what approach FE Jugdral takes with inheritence, but it is messed up.

If Julia gets a male child with Major Naga, I am pretty sure he wouldn't take the throne for Seliph's own son would have a non negociable claim on it, because he is Seliph's son, and we don't care anymore about Naga blood.

The situation arising if they don't breed together that is...

I sort of find it ironic that Seliph wants Jugdral to break free from Crusaders and God-dragon's worship when his claim on the throne is based on his Naga blood.

Maybe it is intentional, his child won't inherit major Naga and it would be a fraud to under the old system to have him inherit the throne.

Diadora is Kurth's only child, so her claim to the throne is absolute, illegitmate or not. Simply because Linoan has Narga blood, does this really give her claim to the throne, is she Kurth's or Azmur's child is my question there? Dubious at best.

In the scheme of things, Celice will still inherit the throne due to being the Imperial Princess's(or Queen) first son, not the minor Narga blood he carries, so if Julia wants to have a Major child or some such... Julia would still be next in line as one of Diadora's living heirs, regardless, a lot of inheritance gets messed up due to the king getting a child during his rule, but overall after Celice, it's Julia unless she forfeits it.

About the plot of FE4, the first gen was politically interesting but it sort of fell down with Deirdre, I mean I would really have wanted to know how Arvis planned to unify the continent without finding the Barhara Princess and marrying her, it just seems... a kind of shortcut. Gen2 was meh, due to stupidity from the whole cast at not guessing who Julia is but... well, each game has its own moment of dumb logic.

You know, you can be offer the throne to someone if you have no heirs, that exists too... as far as meeting Diadora, lucky break or one hell of a coincidence(Manfloy <_<).

As far the not guessing who she was... I believe only three people in Sigurd's Army(barring Levin) who lived saw her, and after about some 17 years or so... you'd probably forget a face or two after that much time thus being unable to make the connection, and the children naturally won't have a clue who Diadora is or was, and thus don't any grounds to make guesses at who Julia is. How did you think they were going to know that?

• Cyas (Seliph hunts Arvis because he murdered Sigurd, Leif does the same with Trabant, why shouldn't Cyas do the same "you killed my dad now die?" and he brings another source of Loptyr blood + mayhem in Velthomer (his ending doesn't specify if he became Duke, but he has Major Fala, über charisma (10 LS) and is known worldwide, it doesn't matter which minion Seliph put in charge it's going to be messy)),
• Marita/Galzus (Shanan has more legitimacy to rule Isaach because... Long hair? Galzus is the child of Mananan's eldest brat and got Major Blood (but he fights with axes and has no long shiny hair))
• Linoan (Seliph is the son of one Kurt's bastard child, and has the same degree of Naga blood than Linoan. If legitimacy is obtained through marriage, then Seliph has none due to Deirdre and he can't argue the Naga blood shared with someone who actually can use it. Good thing Julia is busy doing whatever.)

Cyas: Since Cyas is a man of the cloth, I doubt he'd go vengeance mode like that, and I'm pretty sure he knows about the child hunts his father is behind.(Yes, the truth is Alvis is not behind them, but he can still be blamed for it) I'm sure Cyas knew full well his father required judgement, he probably prayed for his father's soul and went to see the man who slew him.

Shanan has more legitimacy because he is Prince Mariccle's son, who was supposed to become King Isaac, but we already know his fate. Galzus likely lost his claim when he lost his kingdom/duchy.

Linoan has the same degree of Narga blood...what? It doesn't matter if legitimacy is obtained through marriage, Celice is still Diadora's son, it's still his throne, as long as he is the Imperial Princess's son, it's still his claim.

By the way, good job to ignore the Naga lineage residing in Tahra old man. Good job. Maybe Mananan took lessons from him to eradicate the first Odo branch in Rivough, because ignoring tjem couldn't work any longer?

Rivough was taken out due to attacking Grandbell or Darna specifically, as a sign of good will from King Mananan, not from ignoring them.