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Big NOCers - Game Over


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##Unvote

##Welcome: Vhaltz

What kind of reaction test was that

For the purposes of a reaction test, why would you claim someone else was the dayvig rather than yourself? What kind of reaction were you hoping to get (and from whom)?

Then there's Manix's response to ED1 votes being switching from one vote-for-the-sake-of-wagon to another vote-for-the-sake-of-wagon which is also bugging me.

Maybe it's because I'm still half-asleep, but I don't get what you're saying here? Please explain?

Also keeping an eye on Manix for being overdefensive (it's early D1, dude).

And while I'm at it, Refa, please start existing.

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Holy shit, base pair code all up in this? Do I have to break out the sempahores and more code, or am I a dinosaur doomed to extinction. Even after being told how to decode it, I'm still struggling. Like, this isn't even one-to-one mapping, the two 'T's are represented the same way. (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

In other news, eclipse claiming Ninja is kind of a mystery to me as well. ...Like, why would you have to do that? It's the opposite of a miller in that you're not gonna get caught by some accidental scan, so worries should be minimal, and wouldn't anything that picks up the ninja part of the role pick up the other part of the role (implied by her phrasing). That said, I might be straying too far into role spec too early, so maybe I'll table this for now. Just wanted everyone else to see my thought process and realize I have some uncomfortably niggling feelings about the thing there.

Unlike Raymond, I'm not quite as bothered by Vhaltz's reaction testing attempt, because while bizarre, it was clearly deliberately thought-out (I'd originally written well-thought out, but some of the logical leaps are lacking), and the timing between posts is fairly clumped, which I tend to think indicated there's very little "after the fact" justification going down in there. Like 4 minutes is enough for "Oh, I should use a code to make this clear... let's google a code. Here we go." Not only that, but it's probably the defining factor of what has gotten us out of RVS (though Manix's Conqueror flubs are also the arguable turning point).

I'm still trying to puzzle out my feelings on the Manix situation, but my initial feeling is telling me that both sides latched on too hard. I've seen BBM latch on like a bulldog before, so I guess it's not unexpected. Also, still trying to figure out how to interpret his claim of putting down post restricts. Like, why is it beneficial to be putting that out there in the public already? I feel like we just have a lot of early partial claims that don't seem to be the sort of things one needs to claim, and I'm getting taken a little aback.

Anyway, this is my fresh off of "I woke up, had some breakfast, browsed around, and caught up" update, so I'll try to be popping back and forth in here between stages of SRW:OG2 to help keep the pace of the game flowing, but for now I don't have a whole lot more to contribute.

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The vote doesn't matter right now (it's only end of phase votes, I think?) so it feels like you're overexplaining yourself rather than just shrugging it off.

How does it feel like he's overexplaining himself if he was only answering BBM's question? I know it's technically done in two posts (at the time of your vote), but they were within three minutes of each other and it's Manix we're talking about, so it doesn't seem off to me really.

@Vhaltz

Why are you voting BBM just after he declared that he won't be around for an extended period of time? Was there literally no one else you could think of dropping a vote on at that time, or?

@Paperblade

What's your opinion on the Manix - BBM - SB interactions so far?

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Kaoz: wrt Manix his overexplaining felt like he was getting defensive over an RVS strong case. The general way he phrased the question in the second part of the response post sets off alarms for me, it's like "what was I supposed to do" when I don't really feel like there was a need for that? Also, why ask Paperblade and not someone else who hasn't been around like Strege or Conqueror?

@Bal: In Touhou NOCfia Prims gave a townie (Marth, I think?) a passive Ninja modifier, so it's a nulltell. If people want to claim negative utility parts to their roles, power to them (if you count BBM's PR thing as negative utility, anyway.) Do you have any actual reads on people so far? You commented on a lot of stuff but didn't really seem to have any?

Not fond of Vhaltz's BBM vote, it feels kind of forced to me, like a case for the sake of having a case. I don't really see how BBM did anything scummy with that post since it was a valid criticism imo (nobias) and considering it was still RVS, he didn't need a very strong reason to keep the case down in the first place. The "Manix/BBM better post about other people too!" line also feels really weird to me, but I'm having a tough time figuring out why.

##Unvote

##Vote: Vhaltz

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Good things will happen if I have enough votes on me at the end of the day btw, so if people aren't doing anything with their votes at that time I'd like them to park them on me pls.

If people don't have anything to do with their votes at the end of the day, I'd be questioning their villagerness. Also seconding Strege, I'd like confirmation on how much "enough" is.

HI BAL~!

Part of my role is Ninja. Thank you for your time. And with that. . .

Sounds wolfy as fuck.

ALSO half of my role is to dole out posting restrictions to people. Using that half of my role enables use of the other half of my role. So starting D2 you will probably see some PRs on people I find suspicious.

You should make the PR declaring how amazing I am, IMHO.

Other thoughts that don't merit quotes:

-I agree with BBM that Manix's post mentioning that he noticed Conq's role is fluff, but I didn't see any scum intent in that initial post. However, sheeping SB in that I do feel that Manix is overexplaining himself when there shouldn't really be any need too do so.

-Vhaltz's explanation for his vote on Paperblade makes sense. Like there's no way he could have retroactively justified that as a serious vote and it reminds me of Prims voting Bizz in Inception.

-Don't really understand his reasoning WRT BBM. Like..why is BBM scummy?

-Balcerzak wrote a whole lot, but besides his issues with eclipse (which I agree with) it just amounts too "I'm not really bothered by anyone." which makes his post seem like well, fluff.

##Vote: Manix

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In other news, eclipse claiming Ninja is kind of a mystery to me as well. ...Like, why would you have to do that? It's the opposite of a miller in that you're not gonna get caught by some accidental scan, so worries should be minimal, and wouldn't anything that picks up the ninja part of the role pick up the other part of the role (implied by her phrasing). That said, I might be straying too far into role spec too early, so maybe I'll table this for now. Just wanted everyone else to see my thought process and realize I have some uncomfortably niggling feelings about the thing there.

The reasoning is twofold. First, I felt that the rest of my role warranted it (for the intents of a town-sided role cop, I'm a miller). Second, it's so that any trackers/followers can spend their time on more productive things.

I think BBM is once again trying too hard, and Manix is being his usual nitpicky self. I don't think those two are worth a vote at this point, as both of those reactions read null in my books.

The people I don't like are those who took a side in that slapfight - SB and Vhaltz. For Vhaltz, I don't care for reaction tests, and while I think that BBM is trying hard, it's not to the point where it looks scummy. For SB, Manix "overexplained" himself in three sentences - this sounds like more of a forced case than what Vhaltz did on BBM. I think Vhaltz has enough to answer for, so I'm going to go with this:

##Unvote

##Vote: SB

I'll worry 'bout Conq's claim when it's closer to phase end time.

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Ninja'd the Ninja 10/10.

Also eclipse, what do you think of Manix? I don't see any mention of him in your post.

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Also wow, amazing reading skills on my part. I don't see how Manix is nitpicking though?

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I'm pretty sure I put down that both him and BBM's reactions were both null. . .and since that was the chunk of their existence, logic dictates that Manix/BBM are null at this point.

If I'm suspicious on role, then why the hell would I immediately out a modifier that hurts investigative roles?

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So you don't get investigated? Seems pretty obvious to me...Also I can't see Town!Rolecop being such a strong role that it needs to be nerfed by the addition of a Town!Ninja, but apparently Prims has done this before so it is possible I guess.

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In this case, the investigation will return nothing. Given my role, I think that there's a role cop in this game, but I have no idea which side it's on. In terms of straight-up role, my doesn't look like town, but it can't be a hostile third-party role. Otherwise, it would be impossible for me to win. Now, do you have anything else besides rolespec to ask me about?

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Actually would a Town!Ninja even be considered a nerf? I feel like it's a similar situation to SB's discussion on Millers. Generally the player would claim at the beginning of the game and thus increase the odds of Tracker/Rolecop targeting actual scum.

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Now, do you have anything else besides rolespec to ask me about?

Considering I was responding to YOUR question asking me why I thought your role was suspicious, it seems silly for you to blame me for rolespec.

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Manix's over explanation looked defensive to me because I felt like he was explaining himself much more than he needed to. He could've just shrugged it off but instead he continued with "don't you want me to know what I'm doing" and how he would look in the hypothetical scenario that we have scum!Conqueror, which just seems strange this early.

Prims has done town Ninjas before, gaming the setup is pointless right now. For all we know eclipse could be a town ninja meant to hide something from a scum!Tracker/Watcher, or something silly like that.

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Vhaltz "reaction test" sounds dumb to me too, what kind of reaction were you hoping for? What kind of reaction would be scummy from that? In general I don't like reaction tests because they're almost always used in dumb ways or as a way to backtrack on stupid stuff you did.

I kind of agree here? I saw the post before going to bed and thought you were joking around still. At the same time I don't think there's much risk to it?

eclipse outing the Ninja part of her role makes sense, it prevents "I visited X" "I'm Tracker/Watcher no you didn't" "I-I'm ninja" during massclaim. Also role cop shenanigans. I have no issue with it, I don't know why people do.

I think Manix is a bit overdefensive about Conq's role and his vote because of it. Why is he so worried about being blamed if Conq's role has a negative impact on us? Why does he think Conq's role will have a negative impact on us?

##Unvote, ##Vote: Manix

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@Vhaltz Perhaps you could try explaining it more?

@Paperblade What do you think of eclipse considering she found SB scummy for finding Manix overdefensive (which you and I do as well...I'm surprised she didn't comment on that all actually, considering SB is her main scumread)? Ignoring her role, I mean.

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While I don't agree with how SB sees things, meh. I don't see Manix as being overly defensive in that particular instance.

##Unvote

##Vote: Refa

With post 96, I feel like you're trying to push a case on me, without committing to it yourself. This is extremely scummy. If you think me outing ninja/everything else was bad, just vote me.

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Manix said that he won't be here for a while. I'm here. Your vote is on the guy who can't respond, while I get the feeling that you're trying to push my case without voting me (and thus, associating yourself with my lynch, should it happen). This is something I'd expect out of scum, not town.

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Reasoning on BBM. May require reading back on posts #54 to #66.

BBM's reasons for voting Manix didn't make sense past the fluff accusation. His reasons to keep suspecting Manix after their exchange were based Manix's Conq vote being justified on the grounds of Conq's claim (and thus not making any sense because Conq's whatever-upon-voting only works at end-of-phase and Manix's vote on him would've been useless), when Manix clearly stated that his vote on Conq was solely for the sake of wagoning in the same post where he lay down the vote (#54).

BBM was either making things up to keep his vote where it is or being blindingly biased on Manix, Sure they have their whole hatelove thing going on, but it feels off that they would deathtunnel each other right off the bat without some prior argument to get riled up over. This is both why I was leaning scum on BBM and why I asked Manix and BBM to talk about other people when they're back so that they don't muddle up my reads (I know at least BBM tends to get nervous when arguing with Manix regardless of alignment).

wrt SB I’m not very worried about him because I think I get good reads on him as the game goes on, his reasons for voting Manix and I have been alright even if I don't agree with either.

I don't have anything big but there's some particular people that bugged me.

j00's #71 irks me pretty badly. He brings up "reaction tests are bad" as a universal thing that always makes people scum (do you think Prims is scum when he fakeclaims cops/vigs etc for reaction tests?) and explains why reaction tests in general are scummy but doesn't make an attempt to apply it to the current context or explain why the way I went about it is scummy. It feels like a repeat of Kay last game abusing the "self-meta is bad" universal tell to justify a vote without doing anything with it.

##Unvote

##Vote: j00

Scarlet is also guilty of the same somewhat, but his wording kind of implied a questioning of my motives? doesn't read like the same "lol you reaction tested that's scummy".

I haven't fully processed stuff on page 5 yet and still have a few other things to comment on, I'll post again in a bit

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