Who would you consider the better unit on HHM: Raven or Harken?

[Nobody]

Taking into account everything, bases, availability, growths. In all the other modes but HHM I'd say Harken is the better unit between the two of them, because Raven isn't that good compared to other units, like the cavaliers, but his stat boosts on HHM really help him to become one off the most reliable non pre-promoted units of the game, one shoting most regular enemies in his joining chapter, and by the time harken joins it's not hard to have him promoted, even playing efficiently. Of course, after Harken joins he will have better stats for a while. Who would you consider the best unit between the two of them?

Edited April 6, 2014 by Nobody

[MacLovin]

in LTC or Efficiency, probobly Harken.

in dondon style, Harken.

In Shin style, Harken, because he has nice bases.

Otherwise, Ravens alright.

[Junkhead]

dondon's "style" isn't LTC?

[Nobody]

dondon's "style" isn't LTC?

I think he was talking specifically about 0% growths. I imagine that while playing with 0% growths some chapters can't be beaten as quickly as a regular LTC. Like some chapters would go quicker if Marcus got SPD, which can't happen in 0% growths

Edited April 6, 2014 by Nobody

[ZemZem]

Harken in just about every way. Except drafting since he costs turns.

Doesn't mean Raven's a bad unit, though.

[IceBrand]

Raven: Good bases, great offensive growths, poor defense.

Harken: Balanced stats and growths, free Brave sword, can cap STR.

I'd say Harken.

[General Horace]

raven by far just because you included avaliability. his offence is pretty much only matched by marcus for a long time, and the only thing harken has on him lategame really is some res, the defence lead is pretty much moot since Raven has more HP by quite a bit and a little more speed too.. At the same time if you count the time only when both are around, Harken is probably better.

Edited April 6, 2014 by General Horace

[IceBrand]

raven by far just because you included avaliability. his offence is pretty much only matched by marcus for a long time, and the only thing harken has on him lategame really is some res, the defence lead is pretty much moot since Raven has more HP by quite a bit and a little more speed too.. At the same time if you count the time only when both are around, Harken is probably better.

So Raven for earlygame and Harken for late?

[Florete]

Raven for sure. Harken is definitely good, but the dude doesn't exist and isn't much, if any, better when he does.

[Nobody]

So Raven for earlygame and Harken for late?

Well, you don't have Harken in the early game, and Raven is one of your best units when he is recruited.

I'm inclined to agree with everyone saying that Raven is better overall because he exists for longer, but Harken is better when both are available.

[General Horace]

So Raven for earlygame and Harken for late?

In my opinion they're more or less the same unit except Harken has a lot more resistance to status and magic, which is actually pretty important, otherwise they're more or less the same unit.

EDIT: RFoF pretty much said what I'm saying

Edited April 6, 2014 by General Horace

[Aizenberg]

well i always went for karel when i had to choose between them. so id say raven just because I've never used harken before

Edited April 6, 2014 by Aizenberg

[Xator Nova]

Raven due to availability.

[Paper Jam]

Raven's experience gained counts towards getting Jerme's version of Pale Flower of Darkness, for whatever that's worth.

Then again, I'm pretty sure that Harken is easier to recruit in Jerme's version of Pale Flower of Darkness, so I generally find Raven and Harken to be mutually inclusive.

[Refa]

Going to have to agree with Horace, although I will state that it's a miracle that Harken can cost so many turns and still be damn good. Get fucked, Xavier.

[XeKr]

I tend to consider recruitment costs, so it’s easily Raven.

If we waive them, I might still take Raven. Harken only really does cool stuff on what, H29 and maybe Endgame (and Raven can probably do it too)? Lots of units can defend, and neither is mounted/flier/warper.

Not a lot of units consistently one-round early on though, which is very relevant if accepting a fluid team composition.

imo, like the only way I could personally maybe see Harken is if you waived recruitment costs and went full no-mount-is-bad-so-availability<nonexistance and also only considered the optimal case of Marcus+ Lyn Mode!Sain + Lyn Mode!Florina or something. Even then, does Harken contribute anything? I also see both Raven and Harken making HHM easier, if we want to go that route (and Raven moreso, because more chapters to do so)

Edited April 6, 2014 by XeKr

[Paper Jam]

What do you mean by "recruitment costs"? Only Farina costs gold to recruit, so you must mean something else.

[dondon151]

you can finish chapter 27 long before harken shows up

raven is pretty good on 0% growths, too.

[XeKr]

What do you mean by "recruitment costs"? Only Farina costs gold to recruit, so you must mean something else.

Yeah, it’s typically just turncount or reliability (clearly the former in this context). If I want to beat the game efficiently quickly and reliably, I’m not so sure Harken has a worthwhile role (in most teams). If I have to slow down to get Harken, that’s nearly equivalent to slowing down to train [insert growth unit] or slowing down because [some unit] can’t move or kill stuff fast enough.

I realize a lot of people waive that cost however, or assume recruiting all, but it feels more self-consistent (to me) if considering it. The simplest thought experiment is to take Harken2 who is otherwise identical and suppose him to be recruited automatically at the end of the chapter regardless and suppose Harken3 was recruited at turn 100. I personally wouldn’t consider them equivalent, but by waiving the cost, one does and introduces some fuzzy ground (and that’s fine. It’s understandable to be more concerned with post-recruitment considerations. It’s a ground rule thing).

EDIT: To clarify, I actually consider it more appropriate to mention both cases (i.e. [unit] has some recruitment cost, but if we ignore that he's good/bad b/c of x/y/z), as it's usually fairly easy to do so. and trivial statements are boring.

Edited April 6, 2014 by XeKr

[Baldrick]

Obviously Harken2 is the best since he doesn't have the opportunity cost of not recruiting Karel.

If Harken's recruitment cost in turns is a serious detriment, wouldn't Raven's move be the same? He will barely contribute anything because he will fall behind and doesn't have the utility to make ferrying him worth the effort, and all training opportunities will go to your weaker horses and fliers so that they have the combat parameters to save turns later on. Whereas Harken's bases are good enough to make meaningful contributions in certain rout maps.

[General Horace]

If Harken's recruitment cost in turns is a serious detriment, wouldn't Raven's move be the same? He will barely contribute anything because he will fall behind and doesn't have the utility to make ferrying him worth the effort, and all training opportunities will go to your weaker horses and fliers so that they have the combat parameters to save turns later on. Whereas Harken's bases are good enough to make meaningful contributions in certain rout maps.

theoretically wouldn't move also apply to harken? At the point of the game where harken joins all your horses that had bad combat when raven's was excellent have good combat and you potentially have someone like Heath with better offensive and defensive parameters than Harken when he joins, and he has more movement and flies...

Harken really only shines in Cog and as a filler unit in Light. It's not hard to get Raven the same amount of levels to be equally as effective what with all the silly defence chapters in the midgame

that being said i still hate raven as a unit because he hates me growth wise.

Edited April 7, 2014 by General Horace

[Florete]

Obviously Harken2 is the best since he doesn't have the opportunity cost of not recruiting Karel.

If Harken's recruitment cost in turns is a serious detriment, wouldn't Raven's move be the same? He will barely contribute anything because he will fall behind and doesn't have the utility to make ferrying him worth the effort, and all training opportunities will go to your weaker horses and fliers so that they have the combat parameters to save turns later on. Whereas Harken's bases are good enough to make meaningful contributions in certain rout maps.

This isn't FE6. Mount advantages aren't so big that foot units can't do anything. Additionally, the game has multiple defend maps that can act as easy training for anyone.

And I don't think anyone considers Harken's recruitment cost to be a serious detriment. The best the map will realistically be done in is probably 6 or 7 turns if you're really good and you can recruit him from turn 10. If you're drafting or doing LTC that's a problem, but in all other scenarios - ranks, casual, etc. - it isn't worth worrying about.

[Refa]

It's actually really easy to finish Kenneth's map in like 7-8 turns without even trying if you're using 1-2 mounts with four move in snow and Ninian.

[Baldrick]

@Horace It's certainly true that if Harken couldn't make up the turns he costs (rather likely) he's not recruited at all so Raven wins by default. And I might be selling Raven's combat short, I haven't played HHM in ages.

@Red Fox I don't disagree with that. XeKr was talking about turncount so I was thinking about drafts/LTC. IMO both units have their flaws magnified significantly.

[Florete]

@Red Fox I don't disagree with that. XeKr was talking about turncount so I was thinking about drafts/LTC. IMO both units have their flaws magnified significantly.

I was also talking about turn count. High move is definitely an advantage, but not so much in this game like it is in FE4, 6, and 9. Your statement "He will barely contribute anything because he will fall behind" just isn't very accurate for this game, especially in drafts.