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Okay, so I love grinding and DLC and constant reclassing/customization for the best results, so gameplay on Normal/Hard passed pretty easily for me. Consequently, I didn't care much for "optimal pairings" or "best children" because I had no difficulty with the stages.

Upon finally starting my lunatic run however, I discovered that this time I wanted to really plan out my pairings, skill inheritance and try to get the "best children in their best classes" possible! I'm absolutely fine with any sort of grinding and reclassing, so please don't hesitate to give me long reclassing paths if it's worth it!

I also have full access to DLC and additional classes such as Dread Fighter and Bride, and skills like Limit Breaker - so there's no problem recommending me pairings that would utilize these skills/classes for their children.

I've done some research of my own, and combined with the pairings that I used in my past playthroughs, I have come up with a draft - please don't hesitate correcting me!

Chrom/Olivia (I've heard that this gives a great Inigo and Lucina)

Inigo/feMU (Chrom or second gen is best for feMU, and Rightful King, so...)

Cherche/Vaike/Frederick (Vaike gives crazy strength and I love a strong Gerome, but others seem to agree that Fred makes a tank Gerome. I'm a little worried about Fred's stats because in my past experiences Fred had quite inferior stats compared to other units further into the game.)

Gaius/Tharja (Noire gets galeforce and that's awesome, but I've always made Gaius the father for Noire...is there any other good candidate for her father?)

Maribelle/Lon'Qu/Henry/Libra (I've always done Lon'Qu for Brady and it worked out fine...but apparently Henry or Libra gives a good sorcerer potential for him. What should I do?)

Miriel/Gregor (My mind is set on this one.)

Nowi/Kellam/Donnel (Kellam gives Nah amazing defense. But why is everyone suggesting Donnel?)

Sully/Donnel (Isn't this the best? I've heard Stahl and Vaike are good, too, but...)

Panne/????? (Seriously, help me.)

Lissa/Ricken/Libra/Henry/Vaike (So much potential...Owain might be a good magic user, but how about Dread Fighter? What should I do about him?)

Cordelia/Lon'Qu/Stahl (That speed with Lon'Qu...but Stahl makes Severa a good hero...BUTBUTBUT)

Sumia/Henry/Gaius/Fred/??? (I have zero ideas. But unfortunately Chrom is definitely out of question.)

Please keep in mind, this is all for optimization and not supports or hair colours...(though I was very adamant on those before...) so no shipping wars!

I greatly appreciate all the input, and thank you!

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If you're going to give Owain a magic dad, make him a Dread Fighter: I recommed Henry over Libra because he gives both a bit of MAG and STR; some STR is super nice if you want to kill mages. Also Henry!Owain has monstrous growths as a Dread Fighter, and those are always nice.

Another pair I recommend is Lon'zu/Cordelia: Severa with such high SKL is something really amazing (she will get it in a level up almost all the times), plus you get access to all the breakers, if you like them!

One last thing, also: pass down to Gerome and Laurent Dual Support+! They will most likely stay on the back due to not having Galeforce; DS+ makes them even more useful as support units (and thanks to have the potential to get 50+ MAG/STR, they are excellent supports).

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To get as many Galeforcers as possible, but still with good kids, it's best to go Donnel x Sully, Gaius x Tharja, and Avatar x Nowi, but since you're doing a female Avatar, Kellam is the next best choice for a tank Nah.

I think I've heard that Freddy is best as either Gerome or Yarne's father, so you're good there. But if you're worried about Frederick falling behind in stats, he started gaining exp like crazy as soon as I put him in Dread Fighter, and that class does wonders for his res and speed. And it isn't like he can't make use of Res +10 and Aggressor.

This is all I can say though. I have little knowledge of Lunatic or Lunatic+ and can only state what I've seen others recommend.

Edited by Anacybele

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Gerome would really be good as a zerker... yet Fred doesn't give him that option. I'm more leaning towards Vaike.

High Str physical units are better in the back because of dual attacks bypassing counter. (opinion, but from experience)

They'd screw themselves no matter how much HP they had in the front if there are two or more counter units in the Enemy Phase.

Bows will give you a lot more leeway in this mode. While you *ARE* grinding, those constant Luna+ and Hawkeye situations will be slightly annoying. At least without "Limit Breaker" in play.

Also, Ana... not to nitpick, but you admitted yourself that you don't have any experience with Lunatic or Lunatic+.

Does the word "pairings" in a topic just really summon you that well? Wanting to contribute is fine and all, but using hearsay from your only normal mode experience to contribute isn't really at all helpful in this context.

Edited by shadowofchaos

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Also, Ana... not to nitpick, but you admitted yourself that you don't have any experience with Lunatic or Lunatic+.

Does the word "pairings" in a topic just really summon you that well? Wanting to contribute is fine and all, but using hearsay from your only normal mode experience to contribute isn't really at all helpful in this context.

But she brought a point that's pretty important IMO: Frederick does fall behind, and quick. Enemies can kill him as soon as you as you reach chapter 3 (or maybe even 2, I don't remember. Not to mention in Luna+ he probably starts to die on 1), and it's hard to grind him with EXPotential growth because IIRC any kind of enemy that isn't the one with 60 HP gives him very few experience. But it's not impossible.

Also, due to his low stats for his class, he tends to give his children poorer starting stats.

I wouldn't use Frederick as a father for anyone that isn't Cynthia, IMO: Cynthia will be sturdier, she'll have Luna from the start and thus will start kicking asses ASAP.

Not to mention that both him and Sumia gain what they lack by supporting: Fred gains SPD, Sumia gains DEF and ATK, so I think it's a good deal.

By giving Sumia either Henry or Gaius, you waste a Vengeance (Henry) for someone who'll be taking more damage (and has access to Vantage) and you THROW IN THE TOILET a Galeforce (Gaius), since she starts with the Pegasus line, so I think you should totally go with Freddy.

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I said hearsay from other users who have done Lunatic, not hearsay from Normal mode. xP

Yeah. I know.

Hearsay of other people because you yourself have on Normal Mode.

Lunatic+ is also different because of certain skills... particularly counter and Luna+.

Your contributions are relatively moot because honestly, your theories regarding what can and can't be done doesn't hold any credibility unless you've played at least Hard Mode.

Especially since you still get some stuff wrong of which skill you get from which class.

But she brought a point that's pretty important IMO

She brings up something pretty important with no experience on the matter.

Especially considering she pretty much gives Fred hell of a lot of kills on Normal Mode.

Fred is a support pair up unit in Lunatic+. He's getting crap experience, and reclassing him down will only give him so much.

Not that experience is even an issue in this context either.

Vantage is very good in Lunatic+... but you have to make sure that they're able to kill the thing ASAP before they activate counter, considering you're half HP or lower.

So going with Fred for Cynthia is a good bet like you suggested.

Edited by shadowofchaos

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Fred is a support pair up unit in Lunatic+. He's getting crap experience, and reclassing him down will only give him so much.

But if OP has yet to clear Lunatic, now I think it's more important to focus on Lunatic alone rather than throwing in +, which is almost a completely different beast. Frederick is still necessary on the first chapters, although it's a much better idea to feed exp to the Avatar, IMO.

Anyway, OP, dunno if you kno, but the Vantage + Vengeance combo is very good on harder difficulties; I built my pairs by trying to get as many characters with these two skills as possible.

So I say, you should consider the following couples, which all have the V+V combo, very much:

- Lissa/Henry (better than Libra due to having better modifiers; Owain is a babe with Vengeance and Vantage, I prefer him over Luna!Owain)

- Cordelia/Lon'zu (access to Vantage and amazing modifiers; high SKL is very important, because skills are activated with much more easiness. She also comes with armsthrift which is very nice if you like forged weapons and/or legendaries)

- Miriel/Gregor (Laurent will have VANTAGE, ARMSTHRIFT, VENGEANCE!11!!1 FORGED AVERSA'S NIGHT!!!)

- Tharja/Gaius (Noire gets Vantage and Galeforce, making her amazing, and also the modifiers are good to boot)

Brady is also a child who is hard to screw up; I don't know which father would be the best for him, since he starts with great classes from his ma. Some give him Ricken but I'd say it's a waste of Cavalier. I reallyyyy really love Gregor!Brady but Laurent needs Gregor the most if you want to bring the best of each child. Maybe Vaike wouldn't be bad, but I've yet to try (he gives him Counter, which is sexy).

Anyway...

She brings up something pretty important with no experience on the matter.

I think it's okay, it's not like she brought inherently wrong points into the discussion, no harm has been done; in fact, it only brought more space to talk about Sumia's potential husband, lawl.

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Well whatever. XP

Don't people say that Henry is the best father for Cynthia and that Frederick is her worst because he hurts her speed and Henry turns her into a good Dark Flier?

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Don't people say that Henry is the best father for Cynthia and that Frederick is her worst because he hurts her speed and Henry turns her into a good Dark Flier?

I don't think +2 speed is total ass: Cynthy is very good and super speedy regardless of her Pa, and Fred gives her the Wyvern tree, so those who say that are probably the ones who cry in their sleep for not having +4 speed, like it's some horrifying loss.

I'd say Henry is wasted on her because he is needed to bring out the potential of other characters; Owain is a good choice for him, so is Brady.

The reason why Fred is given to her is because Sumia's other options are needed elsewhere, but Cynthia is still very good anyway: she gets Luna from the start without the need to grind, she gets Galeforce, Aegis, Wyven skills (carrier and the breakers can be sexy).

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You said Frederick makes Cynthia sturdy, but so does Henry because he has good defense too, except without the -2 speed modifier. And Henry's magic influence would make her a good Dark Flier. Other Peg knights never get high magic stats. Sorry, but I can see why people say Henry is better for Cynthia than Frederick.

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If you plan to sweep maps with a small number of units, make sure those units have Vantage and dark mage access. Use Vantage+Vengeance with a Nosferatu tome to maximize your chance of surviving.

If you don't care about moving on player phase, all you have to do is spread Galeforce and access to mounted/flying classes as widely as possible. You kill an enemy, activate GF, then retreat out of Counter range.

For a full grind run, L+ is really only difficult in the first 3 chapters, because you don't have access to any wireless options yet. For chapters 4-11, you still want to be somewhat careful, because you don't have unlimited Second Seals. Once you open up the children paralogues, there's very little for you to worry about. The main danger once you get DLCs is Counter. Luna+ enemies don't deal enough damage.

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Hmm... Gaius would give her the best stat modifiers, lol.

But here we are talking about a group of characters. In my suggested list, both Henry and Gaius are taken, and Olivia is Chrom's wife for granted, so if you want Cynthia you gotta go Freddy: Freddy does make her sturdier: Sumia's negative DEF modifier is fixed and on top of that you get +1 RES instead of Henry's -1 RES.

I'd say both Henry and Freddy are good choices, it's only a matter of what the player prefers.

You want Magic Cynthia? Go Henry! You want Sturdy Cynthia? Go Freddy!

It depends on you OP. I already stated that in my opinion Henry is best for a Dreadfighter Owain that can go well on both Magic and Strenght: you get Vengeance + Vantage and that's coolbeans.

Plus... dat white hair + Dread Fighter outfit... hmmmmmmmmmmm :)

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Yes, but which father makes her BEST? That's what we're debating here. xP

No, it sounds more like "if we determine it's Frederick, you'll just leave the discussion alone".

"The Best" in one context is not always true.

Experience helps in this regard.

"Debate" is a funny word considering you state what other say without being able to think about it yourself or having seen it, doesn't really contribute anything.

For example, you're highlighting less of what Gaius or Henry gives Cynthia and exaggerating her losses from Fred being her father. Much like you did before regarding the usability of a certain pegasus knight.

HMMM... I WONDER IF THERE IS BIAS HERE.

But if OP has yet to clear Lunatic, now I think it's more important to focus on Lunatic alone rather than throwing in +, which is almost a completely different beast.

Moving on: If the OP is considering a Lunatic+ run first... and that's their primary goal... Experience in Lunatic "pairing the best characters" doesn't really help a bit.

Optimizing a file just to unlock a difficulty is moot if they're seeking to optimize the file in another.

Just recruit a previous file MU with the logbook and roflstomp the difficulty.

It is as you say... a different beast.

Edited by shadowofchaos

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Yes, but which father makes her BEST? That's what we're debating here. xP

Debating who the best Cynthia is is for the pairing thread, or at least should wait until the OP's been properly answered. That said...

Before you come up with pairings for Lunatic+, it's extremely important to understand that ingame and postgame are completely different things. The biggest examples of this are Avatar's pairing, Avatar's asset/flaw and Sumia's pairing. For example, a +Def Avatar makes the earlygame (up until wireless/DLC is unlocked) much more bearable, but postgame -Def is generally the best flaw. That said, I'll focus mainly on postgame.

Chrom/Olivia Postgame this works out decently, but ingame Olivia will ruin Lucina's bases. Inigo's paralogue is also one of the harder ones on L+.

Inigo/feMU Inigo is decent for postgame, but not because of RK.

Cherche/Vaike/Frederick Any Gerome lacking Zerker is outclassed by one with Zerker, so forget Fred. Vaike/Gregor/Henry are Gerome's preferred fathers.

Gaius/Tharja This is Noire's best pairing by a long shot.

Maribelle/Lon'Qu/Henry/Libra All Brady needs is a father who doesn't lower his Mag. Lon'qu is usually busy elsewhere though.

Miriel/Gregor Good.

Nowi/Kellam/Donnel Donnel gives Nah Galeforce, Kellam doesn't. But Sully needs Donnel more so I wouldn't bother with Donnel x Nowi. Go with a +Skl father instead.

Sully/Donnel No, Stahl x Sully reeks. Donnel is Kjelle's bet father by far.

Panne/????? Frederick. Any +Str/Skl father works, but Fred is the best.

Lissa/Ricken/Libra/Henry/Vaike Libra or Ricken. Owain is destined to use his Tome hand, don't hold it back. Henry is usually busy elsewhere.

Cordelia/Lon'Qu/Stahl Lon'qu!Severa makes a great Hero too, and she's much faster. Go for it.

Sumia/Henry/Gaius/Fred/??? Henry.

Now, about this Cynthia business...

I don't think +2 speed is total ass: Cynthy is very good and super speedy regardless of her Pa, and Fred gives her the Wyvern tree, so those who say that are probably the ones who cry in their sleep for not having +4 speed, like it's some horrifying loss.

Don't disrespect Spd, it's important.

Frederick!Cynthia's mods: 1/-1/5/2/1/1/2. Henry!Cynthia's mods: 0/2/5/4/-1/0/1. Which of those has the highest offensive mod? Henry!Cynthia. Which of those has the highest Skl? Tie. Which has the highest Spd? Henry!Cynthia. All other stats don't matter. Which of those has the most proc choices? Henry!Cynthia.

So Henry!Sumia is going to wind up as a Sage or Dark Flier. Frederick!Cynthia is stuck as physical due to a negative Mag mod (making her magical also wastes every single thing Fred gives her, making him a bad choice for her). Since Wyvern is her strongest class, might as well use that.

[email protected]'s Spd (LB/GF/LF/Luna/All+2): 38(base) +2(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +8([email protected]) +2(All+2) +2(Tonic) = 72. Anna and NS: "You're too slow!" So yeah, that Spd does make a difference- Wyverns need a Spd mod of at least +5 for their Spd to be counted as an asset.

Yes, I'm fully aware that that's only the highest Spd benchmark in the game she falls short of, but since, to an extent, all units can be considered super-overpowered, how "good" pairings are is based on how they perform next to other pairings. In Cynthia's case, Fred!Cynthia has the worst magical prowess (magical > physical) and doesn't have enough Spd to shine as a physical unit, and is thus her worst father.

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Before you come up with pairings for Lunatic+, it's extremely important to understand that ingame and postgame are completely different things. The biggest examples of this are Avatar's pairing, Avatar's asset/flaw and Sumia's pairing. For example, a +Def Avatar makes the earlygame (up until wireless/DLC is unlocked) much more bearable, but postgame -Def is generally the best flaw. That said, I'll focus mainly on postgame.

With that well said, the OP's focus is on "pseudo-ingame" and postgame.

So in this case Henry would be the best father.

But that's disregarding my usual staunch position on original story classes.

However, despite my stubbornness above with the story classes... Lunatic+ isn't something where you can have those luxuries.

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Wow, so much input after such a short time... Thank you so much!

To clear up some topics, I will be focusing on both in-game and postgame though in actuality it is my partial OCD-ness driving me to some extents...haha.

So the pairings now set in stone are: (out of general agreement)

Miriel/Gregor

Gaius/Tharja

Chrom/Olivia

Inigo/feMU

The main focus of this forum seems to be set on Freddy for Cynthia and whether or not Henry makes a better father. I've always put Henry for Sumia but there's been some input suggesting I go with Lissa/Henry to make a Dread Fighter Owain with Vantage + Vengeance. Which would then, following Sumia's limited marriage choices would leave Freddy. In my past experiences (though they may not count as much considering this is my first lunatic run) Fred's stats always, always fell behind, and I've heard that it falls back faster on hard difficulties. And due to this set of inferior stats, his child, regardless of class pools or skill inheritance, would have much lower base stats. Someone suggested I put Fred in the Dread Fighter class to level up his stats, but is this a good idea?

Also, isn't Fred a good father for Yarne as well? Who should I put with Panne if Freddy is taken?

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Well, Frederick gained exp fast for me when I made him a Dread Fighter, but I can't tell you if the same holds true in Lunatic. You'd have to ask someone who did so in Lunatic. xP

And it IS true that no matter what you do with Cynthia, she'll turn out good. She's probably the only kid besides Morgan that just can never turn out terrible.

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Well, Frederick gained exp fast for me when I made him a Dread Fighter, but I can't tell you if the same holds true in Lunatic. You'd have to ask someone who did so in Lunatic. xP

...that's exactly what I was saying.

Honestly, by how much you like to post in threads with gameplay elements, you should at least play the prologue in Lunatic.

Someone suggested I put Fred in the Dread Fighter class to level up his stats, but is this a good idea?

Also, isn't Fred a good father for Yarne as well? Who should I put with Panne if Freddy is taken?

Reclassing him down is the only good option for him.

But regardless, his Great Knight Levels will give him at least 10 internal levels worth.

That hurts.

And since on Normal it only caps out at 20 it doesn't hurt that much... if he's promoted after that in lunatic... well... you'll be getting 8 exp per kill to say the least.

If you have no issues with DLC, I suggest you use Lost Bloodlines 3 and its Paragon prize as the map for leveling Fred.

40 enemies x 16 exp each = 6.4 levels if he can kill everyone.

...That is assuming he can kill everyone.

Edited by shadowofchaos

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Henry x Lissa is considered inferior to Libra x Lissa precisely because it takes Henry away from Sumia and forces her to use a suboptimal pairing (assuming Chrom isn't available, Chrom!Cynthia is a boss). If you want Vengeance on Owain, use Libra.

Ana, units gain exp so slowly in Lunatic(+) that once their IL is capped, even Lv.30 Entombed in EXPonential Growth give 8 exp to a Lv.1 Dread Fighter/Bride.

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Even Lv.30 Entombed in EXPonential Growth give 8 exp to a Lv.1 Dread Fighter/Bride.

That's not true.

A Lv.1 DF/Bride with internal Lv.50 will still have 52? EXP on Lv.30 Risen without Paragon.

It faded to 8 EXP on Lv.1x.

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