Suicide and it's implications

[Tryhard]

But then we have people that are simply put, perpetually unhappy.

They have it all. Supportive friends and family, a good life, people that care about them, a significant other.

But their perpetual unhappiness leads them to simply, off themselves.

This, I cannot understand.

They have depression. Depression I could compare to the worst fever or cold you've had, a terrible foggy feeling that leaves you unwilling to do much of anything. But you know that if you stick it out, it'll be fine in what, a couple days, a week, a couple weeks? At least you feel as though that it will end eventually. If you have depression you don't know when it is going to end, and you just want the pain to be over, not that they want to die. It does not matter about your status in life nor what you have achieved, it can affect anyone.

I feel as though I agree with this.

[Zeithri]

They have depression. Depression I could compare to the worst fever or cold you've had, a terrible foggy feeling that leaves you unwilling to do much of anything. But you know that if you stick it out, it'll be fine in what, a couple days, a week, a couple weeks? At least you feel as though that it will end eventually. If you have depression you don't know when it is going to end, and you just want the pain to be over, not that they want to die. It does not matter about your status in life nor what you have achieved, it can affect anyone.

-video-

I feel as though I agree with this.

I know what depression is. Having had / have a form of it myself, and I know many who suffers from it. It's not after all an uncommon thing today.

Perhaps it never was, it's just more noticed today. But that is not what I mean with perpetual unhappiness even though it could certainly be the same thing, though in that case it's probably deep depression. However, when you try to think of what sense that makes and you'll end up finding no reason for it. Because that person was always loved and supported by everyone and was always happy. Yet they still just.. Off. It ends up really not making any sense. That is what I mean with perpetual unhappiness. I am not psychologist though.

I will watch the video when I return from shower and I will edit my post appropriate after watching it.

ADD: I've watched it now, and.. All I feel is anger towards this person.

All he is saying is "Oh, you don't get it. If you think you get it, then you're wrong because I've been there."

I am not fit to make a proper comment on it because it angers me too much.

Let's just say that I extremely strongly disagree and disapprove of his opinions all together.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Zeithri

[Tryhard]

ADD: I've watched it now, and.. All I feel is anger towards this person.

All he is saying is "Oh, you don't get it. If you think you get it, then you're wrong because I've been there."

I am not fit to make a proper comment on it because it angers me too much.

Let's just say that I extremely strongly disagree and disapprove of his opinions all together.

Fair enough. I don't think so, but if you say.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Tryhard

[Zeithri]

Fair enough. I don't think so, but if you say.

Sorry, I meant "All I see him saying is" because to me, he comes off very preachy and almost pretentious.

That's what I meant. I don't think it changes our disagreement but still, I felt like clarifying!

[SgtSombrero]

I know what depression is. Having had / have a form of it myself, and I know many who suffers from it. It's not after all an uncommon thing today.

Perhaps it never was, it's just more noticed today. But that is not what I mean with perpetual unhappiness even though it could certainly be the same thing, though in that case it's probably deep depression. However, when you try to think of what sense that makes and you'll end up finding no reason for it. Because that person was always loved and supported by everyone and was always happy. Yet they still just.. Off. It ends up really not making any sense. That is what I mean with perpetual unhappiness. I am not psychologist though.

I know how you feel about it; every time you deal with a suicider you have to understand that he thinks in a different way - wich doesn't mean he's mad or something-

That's why, whatsoever kind of depression or unhappiness you have, the best way to recover from it is doing it on your legs and not relying too much on others.

It's about people, and it's all relative; some may heal after a week or two, some may never feel happiness again.

Just - being gloomy about it surely doesn't help.

[Zeithri]

I know how you feel about it; every time you deal with a suicider you have to understand that he thinks in a different way - wich doesn't mean he's mad or something-

That's why, whatsoever kind of depression or unhappiness you have, the best way to recover from it is doing it on your legs and not relying too much on others.

It's about people, and it's all relative; some may heal after a week or two, some may never feel happiness again.

Just - being gloomy about it surely doesn't help.

Indeed, always gloomy will never help one. Then again, if you are that depressed then you can't smile either.

Some people need help. Others.. rely on themselves. Some find religion and some don't. It's different for everyone after all.

I have a saying, Life is nothing but pain except for fleeting moments of happiness. This shows my outlook on life very much.

And no, of course not. I don't claim suiciders are mad people. I will get angry when someone who has it all just offs themselves "because" instead of trying to talk it out with someone. Then again, this again, leads me to just think that some people simply are, unhappy no matter what. I read a comment on that video from someone who had attempted death 47 times and failed all times. Then I've read countless of "He / She was always so happy and so kind and helpful" posts.

My mind draws this conclusion: People who are always happy and helpful are perpetually unhappy and will end up killing themselves while people who are always sad won't or can't because they end up failing at it.

This is just what I've seen so many times that I've simply just come to believe it.

Either people are just lying about how happy and kind people are, or it is something that simply snaps. While those that are sad are crying out for help but no one can help them instead.

I don't know.

My opinions on the topic is that it's an unnecessary thing no matter how bad a person feels.

Don't that one think that we feel that bad either? Perhaps we're even worse but we're still hanging in there.

It's unnecessary. Don't end yourself before your time. Then again, your time might come the second you start being happy because the world is a mean place.

Whatever happens, don't forget to pay the ferryman.

Those are my opinions about it.

( But I feel that I'll end up rambling so I'll end the post here. )

Edited July 22, 2014 by Zeithri

[jiodi]

The problem is you are still assuming far too much about someone. Just because you believe it's a fair comparison to say "hey, we're all stuck here together, so wtf are you doing" does not make it fair.

There are people who have truly felt so much pain that their only recourse is to take their own life. What does it matter if it isn't fair for everyone else around them? Why should they be expected to stick around and survive just because everyone else is doing it?

Society bombards you with rules and mocks you or shames you or blames you for any straying off the course you may do. And then if that's not enough, being a self-aware species, the sheer force of reality and an individual's place in this universe is so staggeringly overwhelming I'm surprised we even still exist.

We take our lives for granted so much and yet we shit all over others who feel as thought they don't have a place. And half the time friends and family don't even know how to deal with near-suicidal depression. It's like "wow society is overbearing? here's more shame and aggravation and alienation to add to your already near-suicidal depression because we don't want to be sad or something".

[Tryhard]

I don't generally like telling people to avoid talking about something, even if they don't know much about it, partially because discussing something can (and, I think, should) be a great way to learn about it. But in the case of suicide? I would appreciate if, especially before making any kind of value judgment about either the act itself or the many people who have committed it, you could take a moment to ask yourself how well you really know what you're about to say, and to how many people you can really apply it.

My apologies Rehab, I feel as though I have broken this in my haste.

[Zeithri]

The problem is you are still assuming far too much about someone. Just because you believe it's a fair comparison to say "hey, we're all stuck here together, so wtf are you doing" does not make it fair.

There are people who have truly felt so much pain that their only recourse is to take their own life. What does it matter if it isn't fair for everyone else around them? Why should they be expected to stick around and survive just because everyone else is doing it?

Society bombards you with rules and mocks you or shames you or blames you for any straying off the course you may do. And then if that's not enough, being a self-aware species, the sheer force of reality and an individual's place in this universe is so staggeringly overwhelming I'm surprised we even still exist.

We take our lives for granted so much and yet we shit all over others who feel as thought they don't have a place. And half the time friends and family don't even know how to deal with near-suicidal depression. It's like "wow society is overbearing? here's more shame and aggravation and alienation to add to your already near-suicidal depression because we don't want to be sad or something".

I would say that you're doing the same against me now unless with you, you refer to people in general.

I have never ever been one to follow society. I have always strayed against it. The whole "individual's place in the universe is staggering and overwhelming" simply doesn't apply to me. But that doesn't mean that I haven't felt this "So much pain" that you say which is the same as the guy in the video said. How do you know that I have not felt that way, OR feel that way? You never asked. That's how you don't know. For that matter, I never asked you either so I will ask; How do you feel?

Otherwise, I agree with you. Minus the part about taking life for granted. I have.. opinionated opinions against that, that I don't feel like bringing up. I also disagree with the part about shitting over others because you're making it sound like "It's fun to be mean" sort of thing. Not entirely at all sure what you mean with that line. Again perhaps you're being general instead of specific. But the whole, people who don't know how to deal with it. That is true. Some people don't, a lot don't. But from the words of someone who has it in the mind, and others spoken to - Not even a suicidal-depressive person knows how to deal with it.

Ones life is in the end ones own to do whatever they wish with, regardless of what other people think, say or do.

What I am trying to say with the last part is that someone who has made up their mind, will not care to think twice about the shame others will give. So to phrase it.

[jiodi]

Alrighty.

I would say that you're doing the same against me now unless with you, you refer to people in general.

I have never ever been one to follow society. I have always strayed against it. The whole "individual's place in the universe is staggering and overwhelming" simply doesn't apply to me.

No, not really. There is a huge difference. I made a direct rebuttal to your overarching point:

#1: " I will get angry when someone who has it all just offs themselves "because" instead of trying to talk it out with someone. "

Who actually kills themselves "just because"? And maybe they were trying to talk to people but didn't know how or didn't feel as thought it worked or was even worth it.

#2: "My mind draws this conclusion: People who are always happy and helpful are perpetually unhappy and will end up killing themselves while people who are always sad won't or can't because they end up failing at it."

This is a generalization. A completely baffling generalization, at that. So every single person's outward persona is actually the inverse of how they actually feel? I was making general points as an attempt at empathy for a certain group. It was advocating, not generalizing.

#3: "Don't that one think that we feel that bad either? Perhaps we're even worse but we're still hanging in there.

It's unnecessary. Don't end yourself before your time."

This is the heart of where you are assuming that these people have not thought about others around them. This is, again, an assumption. I am not making assumptions about you, here, I am directly responding to the words you ahve said yourself.

I really don't care if you haven't felt that the "universe is staggering". Feeling small is literally one of the few constants the human race has. We've had it in religion, we've had it in science, we find things to place on pedestals to have something to worship for whatever reason. I'm about as close to agnostic as I can think and it drives me absolutely insane and I still rely on greater things to help push me through life. But this isn't about our personal experiences. This is about generational commonalities that actually exist.

Because this doesn't apply to you, how can you make baseless generalizations about people?

But that doesn't mean that I haven't felt this "So much pain" that you say which is the same as the guy in the video said. How do you know that I have not felt that way, OR feel that way? You never asked. That's how you don't know. For that matter, I never asked you either so I will ask; How do you feel?

It doesn't matter. It shouldn't matter. I don't need to ask you how you feel when it comes to a debate where the words we speak and the thoughts we apply to paper or message boards or whatever are our only means of understanding. You have separated yourself from those in this topic, from those who have taken their lives or may take their lives, therefore how you feel is irrelevant. How I feel is irrelevant. I understand the the more open my eyes get, the shittier everything seems to be, but I fear nonexistence more than I fear life. This is not necessarily true for others, so why even bother trying to apply that mindset to them? That is projection, not empathy.

Otherwise, I agree with you. Minus the part about taking life for granted. I have.. opinionated opinions against that, that I don't feel like bringing up. I also disagree with the part about shitting over others because you're making it sound like "It's fun to be mean" sort of thing. Not entirely at all sure what you mean with that line.

If you read my earlier post you'd know what I was talking about. We don't dump on people for the fun of being mean, we do it because we don't want them to leave us. It's not inherently bad, but the things we do to keep them around come off as selfish, which is the most telling in how many react to suicide. Seriously, read what I posted back a few days ago, I'm not going to rewrite the whole thing.

Again perhaps you're being general instead of specific. But the whole, people who don't know how to deal with it. That is true. Some people don't, a lot don't. But from the words of someone who has it in the mind, and others spoken to - Not even a suicidal-depressive person knows how to deal with it.

Of course I'm being general, the whole point of this is to be general. We can't sit here and talk about it because we haven't actually done it. Unless one of us is a ghost typing on the internet, which I will put money against that we aren't.

Ones life is in the end ones own to do whatever they wish with, regardless of what other people think, say or do.

What I am trying to say with the last part is that someone who has made up their mind, will not care to think twice about the shame others will give. So to phrase it.

Right, because at that point there's really no point in caring about it. I'm not advocating suicide, I'm advocating not acting like those who feel that way should be shamed or alienated. Even if we do care, we still manage to do that because we cannot possibly empathize.

Even if there is nothing we can do about, having an open mind might help release the stranglehold our culture has over us in every aspect of our lives just a smidge.

[Zeithri]

snip

I feel that, I'll keep being misunderstood and it'll end up causing bad feelings so I will respectfully take my leave from this thread.

[blah the Prussian]

Justification? What does that have to do with it?

I suppose that my idea is less justification, and more when is suicide understandable.

[jiodi]

I feel that, I'll keep being misunderstood and it'll end up causing bad feelings so I will respectfully take my leave from this thread.

I may be coming off a bit dickish, so I apologize. The thing is, though, you're still not really understanding the point I'm trying to get across. And you aren't going to cause me bad feelings because this is a conversation, not a flame war.

If you want to be understood more than what you're saying you're going to have to give clearer, more coherent points. Respond to what I said about the quotes I took from your post, the general rebuttal I made to your points, etc. This is how this stuff works :)

[Life]

There's on thing to say here.

Horizontal for attention, vertical for effect.

Forget people who actually go through with the act, those that talk about it in order to get attention sicken me.

[jiodi]

Wow. How about putting a bag around their head and tightening a belt around their neck until they suffocate. Or drinking some kind of poisonous household cleaning substance? Or jumping off a bridge? Or hanging themselves?. Or overdosing on pills? Or many of the other plethora of ways people have attempted suicide?

It's far more complicated than that to make it so black and white like that. Treating someone like they just want attention is like taunting them, if you sit back and think about it. The amount of effort you want to put into trying to be there for someone who is suffering severe depression like that is up to you, but don't assume you know if they're just doing it for attention or not. Err on the side of caution, always take it seriously, and if you can't deal with it then remove yourself.

[peener weener]

There's on thing to say here.

Horizontal for attention, vertical for effect.

Forget people who actually go through with the act, those that talk about it in order to get attention sicken me.

self-harm is not the same as suicide. you're also way over-simplifying psychological issues, plus generalizing about the reasons people might do one or the other. be a little more sensitive and sensible in the future.

Edited July 23, 2014 by fuccboi

[Rehab]

My apologies Rehab, I feel as though I have broken this in my haste.

Late reply, sorry; oh no worries dude, haven't seen anything worth cursing the name Tryhard for that I didn't think you at the very least presented well enough that it was likely said in good faith.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Rehab

[SgtSombrero]

Actually:

-Hurting yourself is something you feel doing. Something secret none knows about it.
You may feel special, for witnessing something wicked.
-Hurting yourself and post it so everyone can see it is another thing. Needing attention and caring, they just like attention-w***s.
It's not directly their fault, but who pushes them from behind.


Also, a saying
"If you wanna really die, go along the road, not across the street"


Self-harm is totally compromised into suicide and not, y'know.

[peener weener]

Actually:

-Hurting yourself is something you feel doing. Something secret none knows about it.

You may feel special, for witnessing something wicked.

-Hurting yourself and post it so everyone can see it is another thing. Needing attention and caring, they just like attention-w***s.

It's not directly their fault, but who pushes them from behind.

Also, a saying

"If you wanna really die, go along the road, not across the street"

Self-harm is totally compromised into suicide and not, y'know.

no, no, no, no

don't just assume these things about people, stop it. i don't even understand what point you're trying to make. it's not so fucking simple or arbitrary. just don't.

Edited July 23, 2014 by fuccboi

[jiodi]

Actually:

-Hurting yourself is something you feel doing. Something secret none knows about it.

You may feel special, for witnessing something wicked.

-Hurting yourself and post it so everyone can see it is another thing. Needing attention and caring, they just like attention-w***s.

It's not directly their fault, but who pushes them from behind.

Also, a saying

"If you wanna really die, go along the road, not across the street"

Self-harm is totally compromised into suicide and not, y'know.

This is part of the problem. Thinking shit like this.

Do you actually think it serves any purpose calling someone an attention-whore? Does it matter what they're doing or why they're doing it? People need to stop assuming all of these things so they can justify their out-dated opinions on the matter.

[SgtSombrero]

This is part of the problem. Thinking shit like this.

Do you actually think it serves any purpose calling someone an attention-whore? Does it matter what they're doing or why they're doing it? People need to stop assuming all of these things so they can justify their out-dated opinions on the matter.

I may sound rude, but people who actually think like this are needing attention even if they are drowing in love.

It's something that really pisses me, y'know,and something I'll never fully understand.

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I can't understand how a 13 years old girl may think about relationships and whatever.

[peener weener]

I may sound rude, but people who actually think like this are needing attention even if they are drowing in love.

It's something that really pisses me, y'know,and something I'll never fully understand.

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I can't understand how a 13 years old girl may think about relationships and whatever.

what the fuck does any of this mean, these are sentences that don't seem to connect to each other or to the topic at hand

Edited July 23, 2014 by fuccboi

[jiodi]

I may sound rude, but people who actually think like this are needing attention even if they are drowing in love.

It's something that really pisses me, y'know,and something I'll never fully understand.

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I can't understand how a 13 years old girl may think about relationships and whatever.

Yes, because the first thing you should do when you don't understand something is to get pissed about it.

[Tryhard]

If 1 out of 10 people (and I'd like to think it wouldn't be as many) are "faking it to get attention" (which I already find ridiculous anyway but whatever) then why would you say that the rest should be scrutinized? Either assume they are telling the truth or don't bother saying anything at all. Calling them attention whores achieves nothing at all.

Essentially, I'm not sure I follow.

Late reply, sorry; oh no worries dude, haven't seen anything worth cursing the name Tryhard for that I didn't think you at the very least presented well enough that it was likely said in good faith.

that's a first

alrighty

Edited July 23, 2014 by Tryhard

[SgtSombrero]

Well, I'll take my leave then.

what the fuck does any of this mean, these are sentences that don't seem to connect to each other or to the topic at hand

I was quoting some girls who post those kind of photos (when they cut themselves) other than their average age.
Admit it, it's a fashion, something stilysh nowadays cutting yourself, thinking you're special and not your average girl when you are doing the same thing other girls do.

It's just ranting tho, I'm sorry and this post shouldn't go Off Topic anymore. I'm a bit drastic about it, it depends on my education and whatever, but I won't neither annoy you, neither I want to freely tell you.

I am sorry.