Parrhesia Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I don't know. I think there is value to tropes like the Byronic Hero This is an actual literary concept, though. Complete Monster These are just descriptive words. Xanatos Gambit/Xanatos Speed Chess Who the fuck is Xanatos? Nobody is going to get what this means unless they've read the trope pages, or whatever series the character comes from. Notable nuanced differences are The Chessmaster, The Trickster, The Manipulative Bastard and The Magnificent Bastard. Again - descriptive words. With the exception of the implication the 'chessmaster' is some evil schemer. A lot of these don't need capital letters but still. None of them do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Xanatos Gambit is a really dumb page. It basically boils down to "a villain who plans a successful plot." The only way to escape a Xanatos Gambit once you're caught up in one is by somehow foiling all presented options and leaving the organizer thoroughly beaten. Wow, in order to deal with a plot, you have to deal with all the parts of it!? Who woulda thunk it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 @Parrhesia: Don't actually know what Xanatos is. Either way names for the concepts are nice. Xanatos Gambit is a really dumb page. It basically boils down to "a villain who plans a successful plot." Wow, in order to deal with a plot, you have to deal with all the parts of it!? Who woulda thunk it. Doesn't apply to a character or to the plan being successful on its own. A Xanatos Gambit is a plan that leads to victory no matter which route you take. If you do A, you lose. If you do B, you lose. This is a trope that defines a Chessmaster, which is a character trope. You seem to understand the definition so I'm not sure why you're equating it to a villain who is successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 A Xanatos Gambit is a plan that leads to victory no matter which route you take. On the page for Xanatos Gambit, in the blurb at the top purporting to describe the trope, it says the plot can be foiled by dealing with all aspects of it (what a surprise). This was included in my previous post. You may as well call the page "complex plot." It doesn't need an obfuscating name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) On the page for Xanatos Gambit, in the blurb at the top purporting to describe the trope, it says the plot can be foiled by dealing with all aspects of it (what a surprise). This was included in my previous post. You may as well call the page "complex plot." It doesn't need an obfuscating name. Two problems. 1. It's a gambit, not a plot. A gambit is a move where someone intentionally makes a sacrifice (takes a loss) for victory, while a plot is any plan. You can see this in the example given on the trope page: the heroes can defeat either one of the obstacles, but not both at the same time. In chess, this is like giving someone a choice between killing a Knight or a Rook, but taking out either will open up a check mate. Not taking out either will result in setting up a check mate, too. It is impossible to deal with both at the same time because you can only move one piece at a time in chess. 2. The point of the Xanatos Gambit is to make it impossible to escape. I suppose it's possible that the villain misjudged you but that would kind of discredit the Chessmaster title behind it. This is what I mean. It's annoying having to explain these nuanced differences to people. Apparently TVTropes isn't as good at getting them across as I thought because you didn't get it but I'd still like to be able to get across the entire concept of a gambit, not plot, that leads to victory no matter what the other side does. Edited June 24, 2014 by Makaze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 i'd like to think "heads I win tails you lose" is a good way to convey that i'll be the oddball here and say that I enjoy reading tvtropes examples because occasionally i'll be skimming something like, say, "Ramming Always Works", and I'll come across some kind of example that may or may not be incredibly fucking contrived but the description made me curious about the series/game in question. then i read the description of said [thing], which has led me to finding things before Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 i'd like to think "heads I win tails you lose" is a good way to convey that i'll be the oddball here and say that I enjoy reading tvtropes examples because occasionally i'll be skimming something like, say, "Ramming Always Works", and I'll come across some kind of example that may or may not be incredibly fucking contrived but the description made me curious about the series/game in question. then i read the description of said [thing], which has led me to finding things before I don't think it accurately conveys the gambit. A coin toss doesn't involve a counter move by the enemy... Where is the gambit/sacrifice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 The phrase is usually used to convey a sense of "no matter what happens, I win", which implicitly includes the actions of the opposing force Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 You should be careful doing that, Cam. You could get tangled up a web of tabs and be lost forever. (as opposed to Lost Forever). Xanatos is a catchy-sounding name, but even if you know who it is named for it doesn't really tell you what it is. I would call it a Morton's Fork Plot. Or "plot that succeeds no matter what the hero does". I wouldn't call it a gambit, since that implies some sort of sacrifice. If you win no matter what, what's at stake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) You should be careful doing that, Cam. You could get tangled up a web of tabs and be lost forever. (as opposed to Lost Forever). Xanatos is a catchy-sounding name, but even if you know who it is named for it doesn't really tell you what it is. I would call it a Morton's Fork Plot. Or "plot that succeeds no matter what the hero does". I wouldn't call it a gambit, since that implies some sort of sacrifice. If you win no matter what, what's at stake? Victory isn't all that matters even if it is the top priority. Personally, I appreciate there being a term for the sacrifice-based plot in particular. It helps describe a particular type of plot instead of being a general 'perfect plan' catch-all. Edited June 24, 2014 by Makaze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 You should be careful doing that, Cam. You could get tangled up a web of tabs and be lost forever. (as opposed to Lost Forever).it's happened to me way too many times I've become immune to the power on a side note, what the fuck why does this exist and reference something almost entirely separate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Well that, and the people who think the narrator in Lolita is a good guy you're supposed to sympathize with. Edit: Huh, looks like the page on Lolita got cleaned up. Good job, TvTropes. I remember that. I was wondering wtf that was even about and it creeped me the fuck out. I don't know. I think there is value to tropes like the Byronic Hero, Complete Monster, Xanatos Gambit/Xanatos Speed Chess, and so on. Notable nuanced differences are The Chessmaster, The Trickster, The Manipulative Bastard and The Magnificent Bastard. A lot of these don't need capital letters but still. Concrete definitions with comparisons and contrasts are nice. I agree, but i see the point about naming. Xanatos Speed Chess is a pretty fucking dopey name for a trope. Calling it something like High Speed Gambit Chase would have made a shitload more sense. There was a time where 80% of tropes were Japanese or anime named and omg, that was so fucking irritating! They've made an effort to fix that but remnants of the darker times have remained.... The one trope i find rather universal despite its name is Draco In Leather Pants. Most people understand what this means despite everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 @Cam; the insane thing is that it's a "sub-trope" of something that's the exact same thing, except with a name that makes more sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) it's happened to me way too many times I've become immune to the power on a side note, what the fuck why does this exist and reference something almost entirely separate It makes sense, in my opinion. This trope applies where the universe itself has set you up to lose no matter what. The "Perfect" Gambit, let's call it for now, is specifically enacted and thought out by an individual. Edited June 24, 2014 by Makaze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) Found out who Xanatos is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Xanatos Definitely not worth the name. Edited June 24, 2014 by Makaze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaMonkey Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Clearly you need to watch Gargoyles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyFireMage Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Found out who Xanatos is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Xanatos Definitely not worth the name. That's because everyone on TV Tropes has nerd boners for the guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 It's funny watching you guys argue over the exavt same things that you guys complained they do. Because really, post this conversation as a simple text file and I'd never be able to tell that it wasn't from TVTropes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrhesia Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 It's funny watching you guys argue over the exavt same things that you guys complained they do. Because really, post this conversation as a simple text file and I'd never be able to tell that it wasn't from TVTropes. then learn basic reading comprehension skills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 then learn basic reading comprehension skills There's no need for that attitude. I'm jst saying that these are the exact same arguements they have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrhesia Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 It's Makaze defending the terminology and others attacking it, and the site's worth in any way. As opposed to people unironically use tropes to influence, or knowingly and referentially add them to their own writing. Which is usually terrible. And incomplete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 The site doesn't pretend to be a literature guide. As for the forums, perhaps you're just looking for bad apples. I could browse through this or any other site and find the same. But they don't represent the sites. In my plentiful experience, the forums are just as level headed as any other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 TIL a catalog of the tricks of the trade for writing fiction != literature guide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) It's funny watching you guys argue over the exavt same things that you guys complained they do. Because really, post this conversation as a simple text file and I'd never be able to tell that it wasn't from TVTropes. the day this forum gets a fetish thread with around 10,000 pages will be the day I leave this forum, in fact probably a lot less pages than that at least they've made an effort to clean up the forums recently, I don't know how much better it is nowadays. Edited June 24, 2014 by Tryhard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint of Games Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) You mean the Nunnery? They Nuked (ie:Deleted) it recently. Their original plan with that thread was to mantain one thread involving sexual topics so that these topics would not spread to other threads. Edited June 24, 2014 by Saint of Games Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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