Is the hate on Shadow Dragon justified?

[The Geek]

Oh, something I forgot: FE11 has hands down my favorite soundtrack out of the entire series. Except maybe FE12, but that has mostly the same music with a few new ones added. Also: Clash of Two Virtues >>>>> Tearing Shadows.

[RJWalker]

This game (and 12) had the best uder-interface. The touchscreen is used very well. You can play the game purely with the touchscreen or with just the buttons or a combination of both. The touchscreen gimmick isn't forced on you and you have the option to use either. The Touchscreen is next to useless in FE13. You can't even use it on the main menu in 13.

[Refa]

And what if you don't use the touchscreen?

[RJWalker]

And what if you don't use the touchscreen?

Then don't use the touchscreen. But in Awakening, you don't have the option to use the touchscreen while you do in the DS games. Hence the user interface is better. You can play with what you like best. In Awakening, you're stuck with the buttons. Espeically problematic when the 3DS has shitty LR buttons that stop working in year.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Ranger Jack Walker

[kingddd]

My guess to why they didn't allow controlling with the touch screen was probably because they wanted to show off the 3D capabilities at the time and the screens are in different resolutions. If both screens were at the same resolution and supported both 3D then they probably would of kept playing with touch screen feature.

Edited June 29, 2014 by kingddd

[Mekkah]

Something I want to bring up that I don't think has been said yet is that reclassing was an okay idea that turned out horrendous for FE11.

First off, it was pretty imbalanced. Some classes and class sets were just so much better than others, it's downright unfair. There is like no reason to reclass to Archer, Mage or Myrmidon when you can be a Cavalier

Second, it further erases differences between units. FE11 already does a horrible job of distinguishing between characters. There's people who might as well be clones of one another: Vyland and Roshe, Dolph and Mccellan, the Fighter brothers, etc. There's some differences, especially in the case of the Fighters, but they still look way too alike. And then you give them the option to shift classes. Voila, you now have ~7 different units! (Class A, Class B, female, Marth, and then ballistae/Bantu/etc).

This is slightly exeggerated, but I think the general point stands. Without the boundaries of a class, units are even less unique than before. When they already have little to no dialogue and you take away their class uniqueness, what's left of them? Think of some units like FE10 Ilyana: almost everyone agrees she's bad, but a big reason a lot of people still like to use her is because of the unique Thunder tomes she brings to the table.

I also agree that the game just feels bland (other than the dialogue which is fine). The gaidens I'm not a big fan of, but I can see what they tried to do. If you look at them as help for players who got most of their army killed rather than the traditional "reward good play extra chapters", I don't mind them.

[RJWalker]

Nintendo seems to have stopped focusing on the 3D as a gimmick. I definitely would have preferred the actual game to have been on the bottom screen aand all the fluff being on the top. The battles could still have been on the top.

[HeroMystic]

I find Shadow Dragon to be the worst FE game I've ever played from the western titles. Which is strange for me because I've played FE3 and I enjoyed it thoroughly.

I think a lot of it does have to deal with how bland it feels. Not necessarily in story, but in animations and art. I find presentation to be the game's weakest point, and it's just piled up with the poorly-executed Gaiden requirements and weak character personalities. The lack of mechanics are pretty secondary to me.

[TFJ]

I would say that the hate is partially justified. Personally, I regret to this day buying the game.

For me, the core issue was that IS's was just too afraid (or too respectful?) to do some good, major changes to the game. When I think about a remake, I want to see the developer improve on the good aspects of the original while fixing / removing the weak points.

The thing is, in relation to Shadow Dragon... they didn't fix anything that should have been fixed and what they actually changed just made the game worse. The only good changes were interface related (and the updated soundtrack). Everything else was bad:

- They didn't fix the character balance. Most units are still terrible and have no practical purpose. And then you have guys like Wolf and Sedgar breaking the game.

- They didn't fix the bad level design, with bland map layouts, uninteresting map objectives and poor enemy composition.

- Reclassing was the worst feature introduced by IS in the post Shozou Kaga era. Instead of trying to make units more unique, everybody got more bland. Not gonna even talk about the balance issues related to this.

- Locking gaiden chapters behind the loss of your own units is just bad game design, plain and simple. You want to reward your players (with more content) when they play well, not the opposite. I'm aware they did this to help new players, but that's not how you do it. Not at all.

- It started the current trend of terribly designed "hard" difficulties. Simply jacking up the stats of enemies is the laziest way to make the game difficult, and doesn't provide a fun experience at all. Good difficulty comes from solid level design. The best hard mode in the series is still Hector Hard Mode, for providing extra content and good level design. Nowadays, IS makes stuff like Awakening's Lunatic+, the poorest difficulty level in the series yet. People should stop discussing "what is the hardest FE game?" but instead ask the question "which FE game is hard for the right reasons?".

- The nerf to avoid was terrible. It completely screwed some units / classes, made dodging non-existent and completely favored high defense units.

- The gameplay is still relatively bland. No skills, no canto, no multiple objectives... I'm sorry, but I just can't go back to that sort of gameplay. The original was fine for being the first game, but now that the series has reached its 13th installment, I have a basic set of standards regarding the gameplay depth.

Also, speaking of the visuals, the combat sprites and map tilesets looked bad. The unit portraits were ok, but the game as a whole was a big letdown. Again, a good remake this was not.

[Constable Reggie]

This is slightly exeggerated, but I think the general point stands. Without the boundaries of a class, units are even less unique than before. When they already have little to no dialogue and you take away their class uniqueness, what's left of them? Think of some units like FE10 Ilyana: almost everyone agrees she's bad, but a big reason a lot of people still like to use her is because of the unique Thunder tomes she brings to the table.

Nothing forces you to use reclass. It's completely optional and only messes with "class uniqueness" if you want it to do so.

[PKL]

I would say that the hate is partially justified. Personally, I regret to this day buying the game.

For me, the core issue was that IS's was just too afraid (or too respectful?) to do some good, major changes to the game. When I think about a remake, I want to see the developer improve on the good aspects of the original while fixing / removing the weak points.

The thing is, in relation to Shadow Dragon... they didn't fix anything that should have been fixed and what they actually changed just made the game worse. The only good changes were interface related (and the updated soundtrack). Everything else was bad:

- They didn't fix the character balance. Most units are still terrible and have no practical purpose. And then you have guys like Wolf and Sedgar breaking the game.

- They didn't fix the bad level design, with bland map layouts, uninteresting map objectives and poor enemy composition.

- Reclassing was the worst feature introduced by IS in the post Shozou Kaga era. Instead of trying to make units more unique, everybody got more bland. Not gonna even talk about the balance issues related to this.

- Locking gaiden chapters behind the loss of your own units is just bad game design, plain and simple. You want to reward your players (with more content) when they play well, not the opposite. I'm aware they did this to help new players, but that's not how you do it. Not at all.

- It started the current trend of terribly designed "hard" difficulties. Simply jacking up the stats of enemies is the laziest way to make the game difficult, and doesn't provide a fun experience at all. Good difficulty comes from solid level design. The best hard mode in the series is still Hector Hard Mode, for providing extra content and good level design. Nowadays, IS makes stuff like Awakening's Lunatic+, the poorest difficulty level in the series yet. People should stop discussing "what is the hardest FE game?" but instead ask the question "which FE game is hard for the right reasons?".

- The nerf to avoid was terrible. It completely screwed some units / classes, made dodging non-existent and completely favored high defense units.

- The gameplay is still relatively bland. No skills, no canto, no multiple objectives... I'm sorry, but I just can't go back to that sort of gameplay. The original was fine for being the first game, but now that the series has reached its 13th installment, I have a basic set of standards regarding the gameplay depth.

Also, speaking of the visuals, the combat sprites and map tilesets looked bad. The unit portraits were ok, but the game as a whole was a big letdown. Again, a good remake this was not.

@ Bolded- What? Hector Hard Mode is very weak in the difficulty department. I take it you haven't played Lunatic in 12 or 13? 12's is anything but "just buffed enemies" and FE13 does have some genius stuff (that is not noticeable due to Avatar and other broken stuff).

And how is reclassing a bad mechanic? Sure, FE11 was just Heroes for class B and Dracos/Paladins for class A, but it was a very fun new mechanic that added replayability and even made units more versatile and added to strategy. It was also optional

[Jotari]

People are talking about how units like Wolf and Sedgar upset the game's balance. Is there any particular reason for this? I trained Wolf in my most recent playthough (Hard4) and he was never the best member of my team. His bases are fine for when you get him but are ridiculously low for a promoted unit. This is offset by his insane growths which allows him to keep up with the other units who have an extra twenty levels to grow and promotion gains. He's also nerfed by the fact that he sucks up a lot of exp as a promoted unit when you first get him so it can be a chore to level him up and improve his terrible bases. Granted this is all experience from just one playthrough of one of these characters so if they are broken I would like to know why. Because right now, to me they seem like an extremely different way of approaching characters stats but with enough pros and cons to balance them.

BTW, I just made a thread for the Best Hard Mode. Seems like it would be an interesting topic. http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=48482

Edited June 29, 2014 by Jotari

[PKL]

People are talking about how units like Wolf and Sedgar upset the game's balance. Is there any particular reason for this? I trained Wolf in my most recent playthough (Hard4) and he was never the best member of my team. His bases are fine for when you get him but are ridiculously low for a promoted unit. This is offset by his insane growths which allows him to keep up with the other units who have an extra twenty levels to grow and promotion gains. He's also nerfed by the fact that he sucks up a lot of exp as a promoted unit when you first get him so it can be a chore to level him up and improve his terrible bases. Granted this is all experience from just one playthrough of one of these characters so if they are broken I would like to know why. Because right now, to me they seem like an extremely different way of approaching characters stats but with enough pros and cons to balance them.

Mostly because if you turtle with them as Generals they eventually are invincible. Caeda Lena and Wendell are the real breakers of the game.

[eclipse]

People are talking about how units like Wolf and Sedgar upset the game's balance. Is there any particular reason for this? I trained Wolf in my most recent playthough (Hard4) and he was never the best member of my team. His bases are fine for when you get him but are ridiculously low for a promoted unit. This is offset by his insane growths which allows him to keep up with the other units who have an extra twenty levels to grow and promotion gains. He's also nerfed by the fact that he sucks up a lot of exp as a promoted unit when you first get him so it can be a chore to level him up and improve his terrible bases. Granted this is all experience from just one playthrough of one of these characters so if they are broken I would like to know why. Because right now, to me they seem like an extremely different way of approaching characters stats but with enough pros and cons to balance them.

BTW, I just made a thread for the Best Hard Mode. Seems like it would be an interesting topic. http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=48482

Reclass to Sorcerer for experience from 0 to something like 88, then for the next map, reclass to something with growths that make sense and level up (Chapter 6 has no forts, so a healer is a must on the higher difficulties). Or, reclass to General and laugh as enemies do squat for damage, while they can counter for some experience. I'm quite fond of those two, and I didn't have a problem with their insane growths or any issues they brought to the game's balance.

[Refa]

Mostly because if you turtle with them as Generals they eventually are invincible. Caeda Lena and Wendell are the real breakers of the game.

Marth > Caeda for speedruns!

[PKL]

Marth > Caeda for speedruns!

Only in Normal modo!

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

Once, I has raised Lena to a bishop. In the chapter where Gharnef chases you around for a bit, I reclassed her to a swordmaster and watched her rend through those silly mages while their magic plinked off her and while she dodges every physical weapon that comes her way.

[dondon151]

Something I want to bring up that I don't think has been said yet is that reclassing was an okay idea that turned out horrendous for FE11.

i don't think reclassing turned out horrendous (i mean, it would be even worse for FE12), but they could have used the FE13 idea where each character has a limited set of alternatives to which they can reclass. that would have mostly preserved the utility behind the mechanic while still allowing for flavor.

[The Geek]

The only reclassing I ever did in Shadow Dragon was between Bishop and Sage. Stats are relatively the same, it just gives a boost to Lena/Elice's Tome rank. This is good because weapon ranks in Shadow Dragon grow ridiculously slowly.

Also, yeah. No dodging ever happens. Hardly anybody crits either.

[Irysa]

I disagree that the avoid formula change and reclassing were neccessarily bad things. When you can expect everything to hit, you really want to think "how do I not get hit in the first place" as opposed to "I'll probably be okay here cause of 2 RN system", which is why SDH5 has a lot of emphasis on player phase over enemy phase. As for reclassing, I used to hate the idea, but upon playing the game it wasn't that big a deal. A lot of units actually quite like their base classes after all! The primary benefits really stem from being able to alternate between being a flier, and being a mount for when needs demand, and Sage vs Bishop to change your Tome or Staff ranks (or alternate leveling Mages/Clerics like Lena and Merric in their opposite class so they can build ranks before promotion). There is some use in instant C bows or C swords for Swordmaster and Sniper too I guess but I beat all of SD H5 without really ever bothering aside from the final 2 chapters where Cain went Swordmaster with a Wyrmslayer Forge and used Mercurius vs Medeus, and Catria went Sniper and used Parthia vs Medeus.

As for Wolf/Sedgar, Sedgar carried the hell out of my H5 run but still never really did anything incredibly awesome as the game went on, because of the weapon rank problems. I ended up using him as a Warrior in later maps for his Bow rank and hand axes, since he got buff enough def from being a general for a long time. If 11 had mixed reclass then they'd probably be a lot better, since they could put all that Lance rank into a Pally or Dracoknight. Actually, I guess its already been said but class imbalance is more of the problem here than reclassing, Pallies and Dracoknights are just so much better than every other weapon based unit for most situations. Heroes are your next best bet but still don't really compare, swords are meh and Halberds come way later than Ridersbanes.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Irysa

[NinjaMonkey]

Nintendo seems to have stopped focusing on the 3D as a gimmick. I definitely would have preferred the actual game to have been on the bottom screen aand all the fluff being on the top. The battles could still have been on the top.

There is no 3D in Shadow Dragon.

Edited June 30, 2014 by NinjaMonkey

[Just call me AL]

I honestly find Wolf and Sedgar pretty overrated. I mean, sure, their growths are good and all. But they don't offset the slow EXP gain that they have that early in the game. And their bases are pretty unimpressive for their level too. Much of the output they give (and more) could be done by pretty much nearly every early joiner.

[Robert Stewart]

There is no 3D in Shadow Dragon.

He was talking about Awakening, not SD.

[Emperor Hardin]

While class caps are unbalanced as is often the case, Shadow Dragon does do a good job with classes like General and Sniper who have more utility now.

[Knight]

While class caps are unbalanced as is often the case, Shadow Dragon does do a good job with classes like General and Sniper who have more utility now.

I think Shadow Dragon as a whole may be the nicest game to armours, as there are so many reinforcements that tend to come from behind. It's a shame that idea wasn't used in better FE's to give them more use. It's also too bad that the best armour units come in the shape of horseman as there starting class.

TFJ had some pretty good points.

EDIT: I've always wondered why everyone hates the graphics so much? I get the unit models as they don't have unique palettes and are mostly just crappy transitions of the more memorable GBA sprites, but why the map tiles? They aren't as charming as the colourful GBA sprites, but I personally liked the realistic look and the touches like crop fields and such.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Knight