Save states, yay or nay?

[Jotari]

Convenience, for one. If I don't have time to finish a chapter, I'll savestate it and continue later.

Don't mean to criticize or anything, but doesn't pretty much every game in the series feature a suspend function for exactly that purpose? It's even automatically built in to the gameboy games.

[dondon151]

Before I was even a teenager, I used to use save states for almost every move because I just wasn't good enough to beat chapters while keeping my units alive. I needed to manipulate luck to fix the mistakes I made. Obviously, I improved (all of my LTCs are done on console). People here should do the same if they want to be considered as a good player.

the GBA RNG seeding argument is a very significant defense of savestate use. for a certain strategy, there's a finite set of possible outcomes because the RNG's sequence of numbers is fixed. for example, if you came up with a 90% successful strategy on a console FE, you can reset and try it again in the 10% of times that it fails, with a fair expectation that it will succeed in the next attempt.

you can't do that on the GBA. there are low sequences that you can't avoid (e.g., 20 22 22 5) and high sequences that you can't avoid (e.g., 91 89 87 93). this means that if player phase happens to coincide with a high sequence like the one i just mentioned, any unit who has lower than 88 hit will miss, even though the true hit is close to 98%. it's possible to shift the sequence frame a little bit by performing extra actions on player phase or allowing the enemy to counter a player unit one extra time. but this is wasteful, and in a perfectly pseudorandom FE game, it's not something that you would even consider. it's also possible to shift the sequence frame a large amount by loading the chapter and then restarting it from a suspend, but this always burns the same number of RNs per reset for any given chapter.

so this is why savestates are a hugely convenient, and i think justified, tool for LTC, but GBAFE LTC in particular. unlike on console, when you come across a failure, you can expect that failure to happen 100% of the time unless you make an unnecessary tactical change beforehand. the savestate, and by extension, the rngdisplay.lua script (which you may consider outright cheating, but it's something i use all the time) allow the player to scout for those instances beforehand and either accommodate them or avoid them entirely.

to not use savestates and rngdisplay.lua while planning for LTC is simply wasting time. it would be like doing accounting without a calculator.

now as far as its convenience goes with regards to experimentation with enemy AI, it probably saves about as much time overall as the VBA turbo function, so i also don't see a problem with it. the only use of savestates that would make me roll my eyes is when someone spams them repeatedly just to brute force their way through a tactical error.

Edited July 5, 2014 by dondon151

[Roivann]

Don't mean to criticize or anything, but doesn't pretty much every game in the series feature a suspend function for exactly that purpose? It's even automatically built in to the gameboy games.

No, the suspend feature was first introduced in Binding Blade.

[General Horace]

suspend was in fe3 and fe5 for sure. i forget about fe1/2.

[Roivann]

suspend was in fe3 and fe5 for sure. i forget about fe1/2.

Ehh, it probably was. It's been ages since I played the older games. I just did a quick check on the wiki.

[eclipse]

Awakening doesn't seem to use the clock for RNG or if it does it sets all the variables at the start of a turn. I'm currently playing Lunatic+ on Classic mode and making use of the in game save state. If a unit hits with dual strike once you can guarantee they will hit with dual strike again the next time you load that save. However the numbers reset if you actually restart the chapter so you can manipulate the first few turns until you get reliable kills. Are you saying the gameboy advanced games have set RNG even on chapter restarts? So Roy will always get a crit on turn one even after resetting the game?

The in-game save state exists on Lunatic+ Classic? I thought it was Casual modes only? Ah, I'm confused, but if what you're saying is true, this is really cool. There's no 3DS emulator, though, so for now, it's moot. In the future, it might not be!

As for the GBA RNG, the sequence is set - for a really glaring example of this, there's a RN burn during FE8's prologue the guarantees a two-turn clear with a lot of Eir crits, followed by a level up that includes Speed and Strength. After that, the moves for Chapter 1 can be done so that Eir can solo it with relative ease (and no matter how many times you reset, it'll happen).

[Topazd]

FE1/2 both had the option to suspend the game. Though using savestates as a substitute for that method is perfectly fine, in my opinion.

[Jiac]

Savestates are wonderful, though it causes you to manipulate the game and makes the game to be pretty one-sided. I think the problem is, no type of fatigue system in Fire Emblem. The reason I think some of us abuse it is because from my personal experience, there is a Fighter who has like 2 health left, and I'm training Sophia, who without glasses can't hit 2 feet away from her. The fact if she misses and can be OHKO'd by that same enemy is the problem. If a fatigue system were an actual mechanic, and the Fighter can't do the same amount of damage as he could at full health then the use of save states would diminish. Since if she actually hit the Fighter the difference wouldn't be too significant. The damage won't obviously kill her.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Zephyr

[Ownagepuffs]

Don't mean to criticize or anything, but doesn't pretty much every game in the series feature a suspend function for exactly that purpose? It's even automatically built in to the gameboy games.

Booting up a save state is quicker. I can boot it up before the title screen appears, lol.

[Jotari]

The in-game save state exists on Lunatic+ Classic? I thought it was Casual modes only? Ah, I'm confused, but if what you're saying is true, this is really cool. There's no 3DS emulator, though, so for now, it's moot. In the future, it might not be!

As for the GBA RNG, the sequence is set - for a really glaring example of this, there's a RN burn during FE8's prologue the guarantees a two-turn clear with a lot of Eir crits, followed by a level up that includes Speed and Strength. After that, the moves for Chapter 1 can be done so that Eir can solo it with relative ease (and no matter how many times you reset, it'll happen).

Ah no I meant Casual. That's why I bothered to specify at all because I would assume the default mode people would think of is Classic. In all Classic modes there is no in game saves I believe.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Jotari

[Loki Laufeyson]

Are you saying the gameboy advanced games have set RNG even on chapter restarts? So Roy will always get a crit on turn one even after resetting the game?

I think that depends on the chapter...? Like eclipse said up there, certain GBA chapters have a set RNG that guarantees a positive action. Like Lyn Normal Mode where she will always get a crit hit in on that bandit in her prologue. (that element is actually removed in Lyn Hard Mode.) And Eirika's chapter, eclipse mentioned. However, for 99% of the game, thats not really a thing and the RNG does reset on resetting the game.

After that, the moves for Chapter 1 can be done so that Eir can solo it with relative ease (and no matter how many times you reset, it'll happen).

Yeah but i think that only applies to enemy movement and not on stat procs or hit rates. If...i remember correctly..?

The only child here is you Chiki. You look down on others you constantly insult them because they aren't you or play like you. With that kind of arrogance is it any wonder the majority of us don't like you?

You may act like you don't like in your most recent post but honestly your attitude in multiple threads and pure elitism is outright heinous.

The Stop Having Fun Guy has not ceased to exist sadly. We all thought they faded into the obscurity of fandom legend and dark secrets. But alas...there were survivors...

Don't mean to criticize or anything, but doesn't pretty much every game in the series feature a suspend function for exactly that purpose? It's even automatically built in to the gameboy games.

I thought that began with the GBA games? So people using save states when playing FE4 or some junk for that reason seems highly likely. I know the Tellius games do not have that feature but they have battle saves.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Loki Laufeyson

[Topazd]

I thought that began with the GBA games? So people using save states when playing FE4 or some junk for that reason seems highly likely. I know the Tellius games do not have that feature but they have battle saves.

Every single FE game features the suspend option (barring FE4 since a save is allowed at the beginning of every turn), albeit the GBA games were the only ones to do it automatically.

[Irysa]

I think that depends on the chapter...? Like eclipse said up there, certain GBA chapters have a set RNG that guarantees a positive action. Like Lyn Normal Mode where she will always get a crit hit in on that bandit in her prologue. (that element is actually removed in Lyn Hard Mode.) And Eirika's chapter, eclipse mentioned. However, for 99% of the game, thats not really a thing and the RNG does reset on resetting the game.

This is incorrect. If you hard reset a gba game, and load a chapter the RN string generated is the same every time.

This even extends to outside of actual chapters, for example in FE8 if you save on the world map, enter the tower, immediately retreat, then reset the game when it prompts you to save, reload the map save and enter the tower again, there is ALWAYS a Runesword + Iron Lance wielding Skeleton who to the top left of the map who will drop the Runesword if you kill him the right way (great source of unlimited money).

Edited July 5, 2014 by Irysa

[dondon151]

This is incorrect. If you hard reset a gba game, and load a chapter the RN string generated is the same every time.

this is true even if you soft reset. the only way to prevent the RNG from reseeding is to exit the game via suspend.

you technically don't even have to load a chapter. if you use rngdisplay.lua, the full RN string is there from the very beginning. to be even more technically precise, the RN string doesn't exist, but future entries can be determined by the RN generating algorithm that the game uses.

Edited July 6, 2014 by dondon151

[Loki Laufeyson]

This is incorrect. If you hard reset a gba game, and load a chapter the RN string generated is the same every time.

This even extends to outside of actual chapters, for example in FE8 if you save on the world map, enter the tower, immediately retreat, then reset the game when it prompts you to save, reload the map save and enter the tower again, there is ALWAYS a Runesword + Iron Lance wielding Skeleton who to the top left of the map who will drop the Runesword if you kill him the right way (great source of unlimited money).

Really? moreyouknow.jpg I actually wasnt aware of that. I may be just confusing the whole "Unit dies, reset chapter itself, RNG changes" thing. /shrug

[dondon151]

if the unit dies, you get a game over, and you go back to the title screen, the RNG doesn't reseed. if you soft/hard reset in frustration somewhere in between, the RNG does reseed.

[Moira]

I remember being young and watching as Neimi died over and over in hopes that the outcome might change. It was horrible.

[eclipse]

this is true even if you soft reset. the only way to prevent the RNG from reseeding is to exit the game via suspend.

you technically don't even have to load a chapter. if you use rngdisplay.lua, the full RN string is there from the very beginning. to be even more technically precise, the RN string doesn't exist, but future entries can be determined by the RN generating algorithm that the game uses.

if the unit dies, you get a game over, and you go back to the title screen, the RNG doesn't reseed. if you soft/hard reset in frustration somewhere in between, the RNG does reseed.

Alright, I'm confused. If I reset, say, because I missed an attack, but didn't die, would that cause the RNG to reseed? What about if I accidentally kill off a non-vital character, and reset in the middle of their death quote?

[dondon151]

if you resume a chapter midway, the RNG will return to the state in which you left it when you suspended or temporarily quit that chapter. that's why enemy phases always work out the same way, units that die will still die, etc.

if you restart a chapter, either you booted up the game from a soft or a hard reset (in which case the RNG seed will be 8, 56, 21), or you suspended and restarted (in which case the RNG seed will not be 8, 56, 21).

Edited July 6, 2014 by dondon151

[eclipse]

That explains a lot. Thank you! Now I understand why things tend to be different when I suspend/rage restart. I think this can be used to the player's advantage, if the RNG is being stupid (like those strings where Jaffar eats it in HHM on turn 1).

[Chiki]

Which are, funnily enough, the most consistent example of where people utilise savestates. Attempting to dismiss the argument because it only applies to 3 games in the series does not decrease the significance of my point.

Why is the player who restarts, preforms all the exact same moves up to the point he was at in the exact same order, any "better" than the person who reloaded a savestate and went from there? The answer is they are not, they are simply more dedicated and/or have more time to spend. Now in the case of a different game in the series it's true, the RNG doesn't behave the same every single time. But, harder the game is (or the more demanding your goals are, such as LTC), the more specific things need to occur for successful clears to happen. Having a unit crit off irons in higher difficulties is something that you cannot avoid, and it means you would have to instantly restart because now they get exposed to multiple enemies due to killing a unit instead of just damaging it. I think part of the implementation of the mechanics of map save feature in DSFE was due to the fact that on the very high difficulty levels, you are forced to rely on strings of events working out as you envision them, and if they don't, you have to restart. You can't adjust for an errant miss or crit as easily when the enemies are that powerful.

Even in casual play, people who have a plan will usually stick to it unless the strategy itself is obviously problematic. If someone's strategy is sound enough that they can consistently get to the same point on the same turn, even with minor variables here or there, such as a miss or crit occuring, then I don't believe that if they decide to utilise a map save before the boss or difficult segment that relies on small chances not popping up for security they are somehow "worse" players.

There are ways to use savestates that don't necessarily revolve around rigging the hell out of stuff in order to succeed, that is the only point I am trying to defend.

Bolded part 1: I didn't dismiss the argument, I conceded the point, lol. Yes, it's not a good argument for the GBA games. But the point about effort still holds, I said. I'm not trying to be offensive here, but you have a habit of either completely misunderstanding my posts or selectively reading parts of them. You might want to go read them again. I think the entirety of your arguments are based on confusions and misunderstandings of my view.

Bolded part 2: I'm really confused because you guys keep alleging that I'm against save state use even in LTCs (and other cases in which save states are merely convenient, and don't get in the way of strategizing), but I said at least 3-4 times in this thread, and in my first and second posts, that I'm not.. you guys really ought to read my posts.

That's absolutely not what I'm assuming. I already brought this up in either my first post or my second post. If I were doing an LTC run of FE9 and I had save states available, I'd use them to get that 7% crit on Petrine in 23, for example. Convenience is fine as long as it doesn't get in the way of my making a strategy.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=48539&p=3187095

Bolded part 3: I already admitted this in my first post. I honestly don't understand what you're trying to argue against.

the GBA RNG seeding argument is a very significant defense of savestate use. for a certain strategy, there's a finite set of possible outcomes because the RNG's sequence of numbers is fixed. for example, if you came up with a 90% successful strategy on a console FE, you can reset and try it again in the 10% of times that it fails, with a fair expectation that it will succeed in the next attempt.

you can't do that on the GBA. there are low sequences that you can't avoid (e.g., 20 22 22 5) and high sequences that you can't avoid (e.g., 91 89 87 93). this means that if player phase happens to coincide with a high sequence like the one i just mentioned, any unit who has lower than 88 hit will miss, even though the true hit is close to 98%. it's possible to shift the sequence frame a little bit by performing extra actions on player phase or allowing the enemy to counter a player unit one extra time. but this is wasteful, and in a perfectly pseudorandom FE game, it's not something that you would even consider. it's also possible to shift the sequence frame a large amount by loading the chapter and then restarting it from a suspend, but this always burns the same number of RNs per reset for any given chapter.

so this is why savestates are a hugely convenient, and i think justified, tool for LTC, but GBAFE LTC in particular. unlike on console, when you come across a failure, you can expect that failure to happen 100% of the time unless you make an unnecessary tactical change beforehand. the savestate, and by extension, the rngdisplay.lua script (which you may consider outright cheating, but it's something i use all the time) allow the player to scout for those instances beforehand and either accommodate them or avoid them entirely.

to not use savestates and rngdisplay.lua while planning for LTC is simply wasting time. it would be like doing accounting without a calculator.

now as far as its convenience goes with regards to experimentation with enemy AI, it probably saves about as much time overall as the VBA turbo function, so i also don't see a problem with it. the only use of savestates that would make me roll my eyes is when someone spams them repeatedly just to brute force their way through a tactical error.

That's absolutely not what I'm assuming. I already brought this up in either my first post or my second post. If I were doing an LTC run of FE9 and I had save states available, I'd use them to get that 7% crit on Petrine in 23, for example. Convenience is fine as long as it doesn't get in the way of my making a strategy.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=48539&p=3187095

The only child here is you Chiki. You look down on others you constantly insult them because they aren't you or play like you. With that kind of arrogance is it any wonder the majority of us don't like you?

You may act like you don't like in your most recent post but honestly your attitude in multiple threads and pure elitism is outright heinous.

LOL. Alleged vdeo game elitism is heinous now? You guys are so sad.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Chiki

[Mekkah]

I tend to use them. But sometimes I make a point of not using them.

[Don Draper]

That's just false, unless you have a job that's like 80 hours a week or something, or you take some really hard classes at school.

How ignorant can you possibly be? As lame as save-states are, what exactly gives you the right to judge how much time people should/shouldn't allocate to video games?

You sound like a self-centered child with a sheltered worldview and complete lack of empathy for others.

[Chiki]

How ignorant can you possibly be? As lame as save-states are, what exactly gives you the right to judge how much time people should/shouldn't allocate to video games?

You sound like a self-centered child with a sheltered worldview and complete lack of empathy for others.

LOL. I wasn't telling him how much time he should spend on video games. I was merely challenging the claim that he doesn't have time to restart chapters, which is bullshit.

Yes, I'm a horrible, heinous person who has no empathy for others simply because I think some people are bad players at a video game, and I think people have more than enough time to restart chapters. In fact, I'm on the level of Hitler and Stalin. You guys are pathetically sensitive, lol.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Chiki

[Don Draper]

LOL. I wasn't telling him how much time he should spend on video games. I was merely challenging the claim that he doesn't have time to restart chapters, which is bullshit.

Yes, I'm a horrible, heinous person who has no empathy for others simply because I think some people are bad players at a video game, and I think people have more than enough time to restart chapters. In fact, I'm on the level of Hitler and Stalin. You guys are pathetically sensitive, lol.

"I wasn't telling him how much time he should spend on video games. I was merely challenging the claim that he doesn't have more time to spend on video games!"

Please answer two questions for me, so I know what kind of person I'm dealing with here:

1) How old are you

2) Have you ever worked a day in your life

Edited July 6, 2014 by Don Draper