Does killing the enemy Peg. Knights bother anyone?

[Vennobennu]

It's funny that you bring up mercenaries, because the Mercenary is the only male sprite that isn't either faceless or comical (pirates and bandits, even fighters to a degree). Although, the mercenary sprite is curiously designed with the aggressive/confident/taunting pose that makes him look like a bad guy.

hahaha wow

[Loki Laufeyson]

did i miss something huge or is this thread literally "sum generic enemies is girls. #makesuthink"?

more like "sum generic enemies are hot and/or cute girls. #makesmefeelbadcuzwhocaresaboutuglywomen"

[AnonymousSpeed]

...what do I look like to you all? A sexist? Why should I descriminate against anyone in my bloodthirsty rampage across a fictional universe with five people crushing a full army?! Where's the logic in that?!

Uh...anyway, do I feel bad for killing generic Pegasus knights? Less than I do with generic soldiers. At least the generic soldiers get dialogue every now and then. Generic Pegasus knights never get dialogue. No one even says they know those Pegasus knights, unlike, say, how Sain and Kent know generic whatevers in FE7.

[blogger]

Uh...anyway, do I feel bad for killing generic Pegasus knights? Less than I do with generic soldiers. At least the generic soldiers get dialogue every now and then. Generic Pegasus knights never get dialogue. No one even says they know those Pegasus knights, unlike, say, how Sain and Kent know generic whatevers in FE7.

I must have zoned out or something, since I didn't remember any generics talking in FE7. On the other hand, the faceless units call Jill a traitor at some point in FE9, which I found to be a neat touch. I elaborated on it in a previous post, but IMO, the enemies having the occasional pre-battle or death quote would go a long way in humanizing them.

Edited July 7, 2014 by blogger

[-Cynthia-]

I do feel a bit worse about FE13 generics (non-Risen) since they have more similar faces to PCs compared to previous titles.

[Roivann]

Guys, I feel like you're taking this thread a little too seriously...

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I don't care for killing Falcon Knights in general. They're enemies like everyone else. The gender makes no difference for me.

FE has not that many Falcon Knights as enemies in genereal. Most of them appear in the GBA games and in FE13. The Tellius series has almost no Pegasus/Falcon Knights as enemies.

There are also so few Falcon Knights bosses in the entire FE series.

I only remember the siblings in Gen1 and 2 in FE4 (who are annoying!), in FE6 in 19A and in FE10 in 4-1.

Edited July 7, 2014 by TalesOf Hysteria

[Book of Ereshkigal]

Hm, no. Kill the kawaii girls just like the ugly bandits, :p

(Hm! -makes note to include kawaii girl bandits in a game-)

[Loki Laufeyson]

Hey, Boron pointed out something pretty interesting. In FE13, theres no enemy healers that are non-combatants. By the time you see enemy healers, they are promoted enemies that can counter attack. (Like Sages, Falcon Knights, Valks, War Monk/Clerics) So there seems to have been a conscious decision to not include enemy healers that cannot counter attack in the game.

O.o weird.

[Refa]

Tangentially related, but FE13 giving its enemies face portraits did make me feel worse about killing them (except the bandits, they were wolfy as fuck).

Also speaking of FE13, fuck NPC units. All of the non recruitable ones can go die in a fire for all I care.

[Nobody]

My dancer is usually on the front line (how else is she going to dance?), so I haven't had this problem. Besides, the enemy Peg. Knights are usually laughably weak, especially compared to those annoying wyverns.

Say that to those evil, nasty falcon knights reinforcements in the mila tree chapter.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Nobody

[Loki Laufeyson]

Also speaking of FE13, fuck NPC units. All of the non recruitable ones can go die in a fire for all I care.

Mean.

The ones in FE13 that i dont feel bad about getting iced is those dudes in Paralogue 2 or whatever it is. Those guys who run right toward the enemy. Thats just dumb.

[Sunwoo]

Tangentially related, but FE13 giving its enemies face portraits did make me feel worse about killing them (except the bandits, they were wolfy as fuck).

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I don't like letting the green NPC units die, so I'll usually restart to save them. Things that are red and non-recruitable, though, are free game.

[Irysa]

The funny thing that Rehab kind of mentioned is that the female units (Troubadour, Peg. Knight) are generally less faceless than the male units (Paladin, Knight, Soldier). Death is trivial in terms of game mechanics, since you just load your last save state and keep going. If anything, IS could have made the whole "war is bad" thing more serious by giving generic enemies death quotes and the bosses battle conversations other than "behold my peerless skillz." That said, there's no indication that IS actually wants you to think that war is bad. In fact, for the most part, your forces' slaughter of entire armies is generally shown in a positive, role-model-setting light. Only occasionally certain charismatic enemies (e.g. FE1/FE11 Camus) are highlighted.

How exactly is death "trivial" if you're admitting that you actively try to avoid it, via savestate or a restart? Death is a finality for your units in every game that does not have the Aum Staff, or some specific story sensitive chars who just become permanently injured. A large part of many people's experience in Fire Emblem is trying to keep everyone alive, and the tension that results from close calls and the like.

Minerva in FE1/11 and Jill in FE9 both are explictly highlighted with their internal conflict in fighting against their fellow countrymen and even family. PoR shows how the people of Daein view the Crimean army when they begin their counteroffensive, and it even has chapters where you are outright rewarded for killing as few enemies as possible. FE3 Book2/FE12 and FE10 also have situations where allies from the previous war are pit against each other, and it is not always just "Haha free recruit", I assure you. SD has a fantastic scene where Marth struggles with his emotions towards the enemies and country that destroyed his homeland and killed his family. "A true leader needs to look at opponent and see more than just an enemy." Heck even FE8 does it pretty well, what with the Grado generals conflict between their Emperor and what they feel is right.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Irysa

[blogger]

On the topic of green units, is it actually possible to save all the Marado civilians in FE10 1-6-2?

How exactly is death "trivial" if you're admitting that you actively try to avoid it, via savestate or a restart? Death is a finality for your units in every game that does not have the Aum Staff, or some specific story sensitive chars who just become permanently injured. A large part of many people's experience in Fire Emblem is trying to keep everyone alive, and the tension that results from close calls and the like.

It's trivial like death in Mario in that the only real effect on players is that they play the level again. Even if you discount save states, most players reset if any unit dies. You could say that your units being non-respawning unlike RTS type games (Starcraft, etc.) makes you care about them more, but that's really because of the RPG elements in FE (growth, backstory, etc.). Imagine if you had a game like Starcraft except that you started with a fixed pool of units instead of creating them. Death would be "permament" in that each lost unit reduces your fighting ability, but it wouldn't make it any more emotional. It's in this sense that permanent death's real effect is only on the map objective, since nobody dies in practice.

Minerva in FE1/11 and Jill in FE9 both are explictly highlighted with their internal conflict in fighting against their fellow countrymen and even family. PoR shows how the people of Daein view the Crimean army when they begin their counteroffensive, and it even has chapters where you are outright rewarded for killing as few enemies as possible. FE3 Book2/FE12 and FE10 also have situations where allies from the previous war are pit against each other, and it is not always just "Haha free recruit", I assure you. SD has a fantastic scene where Marth struggles with his emotions towards the enemies and country that destroyed his homeland and killed his family. "A true leader needs to look at opponent and see more than just an enemy." Heck even FE8 does it pretty well, what with the Grado generals conflict between their Emperor and what they feel is right.

I don't recall Minerva having much to say about the Medon campaign other than "someone needs to beat them because they lost their way." FE8 is another example where the enemy is generally depicted as some faceless evil, but with individual charismatic (Selena and that guy I forget) enemies portrayed as sympathetic. This is in the same line as Camus, which I mentioned before, and there is usually one sympathetic boss in each game. FE10 is the closest the series has gotten to the reality of war since the player controls both the GMs and the DBs. However, the game even tells you not to worry about the details since the other side comes back to life! This has the effect of devolving the experience to "I can 2-turn this chapter if Jill beats up Ike." Ironically, permanent death would actually have made this more interesting, since you would need to balance turns saved against the value of units lost.

[Irysa]

It's trivial like death in Mario in that the only real effect on players is that they play the level again. Even if you discount save states, most players reset if any unit dies. You could say that your units being non-respawning unlike RTS type games (Starcraft, etc.) makes you care about them more, but that's really because of the RPG elements in FE (growth, backstory, etc.). Imagine if you had a game like Starcraft except that you started with a fixed pool of units instead of creating them. Death would be "permament" in that each lost unit reduces your fighting ability, but it wouldn't make it any more emotional. It's in this sense that permanent death's real effect is only on the map objective, since nobody dies in practice.

I did not bring up "emotional value" in my response to PC chars dying, so I have no clue where most of this argument is coming from. From a mechanics perspective, you care about units dying because losing them means you never again have access to that unit, and that is not a trivial matter, thus you reset. A game like Mario simply has you restart the level as a matter of course, if everytime you died in Mario you lost the ability to use a type of powerup for the rest of the game people would reload the save, not just accept a life loss.

I don't recall Minerva having much to say about the Medon campaign other than "someone needs to beat them because they lost their way." FE8 is another example where the enemy is generally depicted as some faceless evil, but with individual charismatic (Selena and that guy I forget) enemies portrayed as sympathetic. This is in the same line as Camus, which I mentioned before, and there is usually one sympathetic boss in each game. FE10 is the closest the series has gotten to the reality of war since the player controls both the GMs and the DBs. However, the game even tells you not to worry about the details since the other side comes back to life! This has the effect of devolving the experience to "I can 2-turn this chapter if Jill beats up Ike." Ironically, permanent death would actually have made this more interesting, since you would need to balance turns saved against the value of units lost.

You clearly missed her conversations with some of the Pegasus sisters.

As for FE8, the army of Grado is not a faceless evil at all. The faceless evil is the Demon King and monsters. There's quite a lot of dialogue early on in the game devoted to the war and the absurdity of having to fight their former allies. Having 4 prominently powerful chars in the enemy force continously being shown in a non negative light in cutscenes or flashbacks (Duessel, Selena, Glen, Lyon) isn't just "oh theres a boss you'll feel bad for". Heck even Cormag gets some decent lines about stuff like this.

FE10 could have been improved in a lot of ways, and I agree it's pretty silly that you can just have them all retreat. However that doesn't change what I said about Marth and Nyna's speech in 11, nor 9's portrayal of Daein refugees.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Irysa

[-Cynthia-]

On the topic of green units, is it actually possible to save all the Marado civilians in FE10 1-6-2?

Yeah, easiest way is to rescue drop Tauroneo and end the chapter ASAP.

[RJWalker]

There's also generic soldiers in the Gheb chapter who talk abiut this stuff in Ghab's chapter in FE8.

[Rehab]

On the topic of green units, is it actually possible to save all the Marado civilians in FE10 1-6-2?

It's trivial like death in Mario in that the only real effect on players is that they play the level again. Even if you discount save states, most players reset if any unit dies. You could say that your units being non-respawning unlike RTS type games (Starcraft, etc.) makes you care about them more, but that's really because of the RPG elements in FE (growth, backstory, etc.). Imagine if you had a game like Starcraft except that you started with a fixed pool of units instead of creating them. Death would be "permament" in that each lost unit reduces your fighting ability, but it wouldn't make it any more emotional. It's in this sense that permanent death's real effect is only on the map objective, since nobody dies in practice.

I don't recall Minerva having much to say about the Medon campaign other than "someone needs to beat them because they lost their way." FE8 is another example where the enemy is generally depicted as some faceless evil, but with individual charismatic (Selena and that guy I forget) enemies portrayed as sympathetic. This is in the same line as Camus, which I mentioned before, and there is usually one sympathetic boss in each game. FE10 is the closest the series has gotten to the reality of war since the player controls both the GMs and the DBs. However, the game even tells you not to worry about the details since the other side comes back to life! This has the effect of devolving the experience to "I can 2-turn this chapter if Jill beats up Ike." Ironically, permanent death would actually have made this more interesting, since you would need to balance turns saved against the value of units lost.

This is sorta close to how XCOM works, and I assure you getting emotional about my Colonel Medic (the highest unit rank/level), a blond American codenamed Prophet and angel of the battlefield, who fell at the hands of a berzerked ally just after stabilizing a dying squaddie, and might have been saved if anybody else had a medkit but instead bled out for 3 agonizing turns where even the most forceful push had no chance of ending the chapter in time, is very much a thing.

for me, at the least

[spoiler=Rest in peace, you beautiful fool]

Edited July 7, 2014 by Rehab

[Tryhard]

I don't like pegasus knights, with a few exceptions, so it's completely fine!

Male pegasus knights from FE3 should be playable, tho, deffo.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Tryhard

[sirmola]

One of the things i liked about fe5 is that capture gave you a good mechanical reason to feel sad when enemy units died. Also, it makes it so that there is almost never a reason to kill an unarmed person.

Edited July 7, 2014 by sirmola

[Original Alear]

I feel bad for killing the mounts (I assume this happens sometimes). They got dragged into humanity's wars...

[Florete]

As many others have said, I don't know why I should feel any worse about killing female soldiers than I should for male soldiers. I like to think there are women mixed into all the armies we fight as it is. We have plenty, so why wouldn't they?

Older Pegasus Knights also clearly exist.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I'm playing a video game, performing actions for the purpose of some objective because I find some entertainment in it.

I'm not impaling a sentient being with a lance

I'm not cleaving people's heads off with an axe.

I'm not slashing people's throats with a sword.

I'm not making Swiss cheese out of people by shooting arrows at them.

When I play pokemon, I'm not enslaving sentient creatures to do my bidding nor am I thinking too hard on the implications of what I'm doing in said video game which is probably a good reason why many of us had no part in making this

That and violence generally doesn't bother anyone when you know it's not real.

Too Long or Couldn't Make Sense of it: Why are you over-thinking this?

Edited July 8, 2014 by Sirius

[Vorena]

They're all supposed to be female, right? Judging from the ones on the player's side, cute little girls too. I mean, you're basically mowing down hordes of Thanys and Florinas.

OK. I suppose Vanessa isn't as adorable.

Most of the games feature some kind of female boss unit, but the plot usually goes out of its way to make them "evil." This is comically so with Sonia (FE7) and Petrine (FE9).

Huh, I would have expected this to be about the pegasi themselves rather than the people. What makes them so special from say KO'ing Kishuna the magic seal from FE7? I guess I am confused on why them being female has to matter o.0? Or maybe its the age? I would agree it seems like the age of these knight are people who are what... 14-16 years of age? I am not sure. Eventually, it reaches a point where is apparently acceptable for anyone who is over 18 to enter war. Yet, a child say like 8 years old is terrible. I would think its terrible no matter the age to be entering war.

There are MALE Pegasus knights in fe3. But yeah it doesn't really bug me.

Where in the game does that occur?

Edited July 8, 2014 by Vorena