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Does anybody else feel like the makers of Awakening sorta-kinda intended for the player to pair up their Avatar with Chrom (if female) or Lucina (if male)? I know there aren't really any canon couples in the game per se, but it does feel like there are certain pushes from the makers. Obviously they also really try to hammer in Chrom X Sumia as well, but it's safe to say that doing f!Robin X Chrom and m!Robin X Lucina brings out the most epic plot-driven drama the game can produce. In either instance, Lucina tries to come to terms with killing her mother or her husband, and the scene is just so heartbreaking and powerful, especially because of the music and dialogue.

It's gotten to a point where I now consider at least m!Robin X Lucina "canon", just cause their relationship makes the game a decent bit more compelling. I also found their supports and their conversations at the DLC hot springs to be cute as hell.

Obviously this is just opinion-based, and I'm happy to hear replies from people completely disgusted by the pairing ("That's his best friend's kid, you sicko!"). From the sounds of it, though, m!Robin X Lucina and f!Robin X Chrom are really popular ships. Like.....really popular, so if anyone has a reason why they ship them so hard, feel free to respond! =P

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Considering that Sumia is pushed as Chrom's wife regardless of the Avatar's gender and that Chrom treats the Avatar the same way regardless of Avatar's gender, I would say that Chrom x Sumia is the only pairing that is truly pushed as "canon."

Personally, I find the story to be WORSE if the Avatar marries Chrom or Lucina and I'm quite anti-Chrom x Avatar (I've yet to see any Avatar x Lucina supports). But that's me.

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Chrom and Lucina are also, you know, the lords of the game? It's no surprise that the two most important non-avatar characters would get the most dialogue with the avatar? I don't feel that Chrom/feMU or maMU/Lucina are canon at all.

The special conversation in chapter 21 makes sense because as her mother or husband, they would be extremely close to her and it would be rather odd to give someone special to you a generic dialogue. However, the existence of the special conversation doesn't mean it's canon. Also, whether or not it makes the game more compelling is completely up to opinion. Because personally, the special conversation with Lucina and the avatar as her mother or husband actually made me dislike her character irreparably.

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Sangyul pretty much summed it up my thoughts, yeah. In fact, he was the one that pointed out to me the problems with those scenes when the Avatar is Lucina's mother or husband.

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Chrom and Lucina are also, you know, the lords of the game? It's no surprise that the two most important non-avatar characters would get the most dialogue with the avatar?

Fair enough.

The special conversation in chapter 21 makes sense because as her mother or husband, they would be extremely close to her and it would be rather odd to give someone special to you a generic dialogue. However, the existence of the special conversation doesn't mean it's canon.

Granted, I never really said the pairings were canon; only that I personally considered them "canon" in a sense. I threw in the "opinion-based" thing at the end to establish that. I suppose this thread might have been given am inaccurate name.

Also, whether or not it makes the game more compelling is completely up to opinion. Because personally, the special conversation with Lucina and the avatar as her mother or husband actually made me dislike her character irreparably.

Understandable, as is any other matter of taste. I personally found those scenes more compelling when Robin is either the mother or the husband of Lucina, but difference of opinion is awesome, hoenstly. Out of curiosity, why did the scene make you hate Lucina as a character? I've heard other people say that it makes her seem selfish, that she would sacrifice the good of many for the sake of her individual mother or husband; if that's the case, I can totally understand (though obviously not come to the same conclusion haha), and it does open up all kinds of interesting moral philosophy conversation. Just curious, hopefully it didn't come off as rude or pushy =)

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That's pretty much it, the scene makes her seem selfish. It also makes Chrom seem selfish at the end of the game if the player decides to have him deal the final blow to Grima. He's basically choosing his wife over millions of other innocent lives.

You've seen one now. Robin x Lucina is, in my mind, "canon." As is Chrom x Sumia. But that's just me :3

I meant conversations. >.>

Edited by Anacybele
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Granted, I never really said the pairings were canon; only that I personally considered them "canon" in a sense. I threw in the "opinion-based" thing at the end to establish that. I suppose this thread might have been given am inaccurate name.

Sorry if I misunderstood that, it sounded like you were trying to say that the special conversations meant that the game was pushing it.

Understandable, as is any other matter of taste. I personally found those scenes more compelling when Robin is either the mother or the husband of Lucina, but difference of opinion is awesome, hoenstly. Out of curiosity, why did the scene make you hate Lucina as a character? I've heard other people say that it makes her seem selfish, that she would sacrifice the good of many for the sake of her individual mother or husband; if that's the case, I can totally understand (though obviously not come to the same conclusion haha), and it does open up all kinds of interesting moral philosophy conversation. Just curious, hopefully it didn't come off as rude or pushy =)

The reason the chapter 21 scene made me dislike Lucina's character is actually the same problem I had with Chrom. FE as a series has a history of lords and royals who have to make difficult decisions and sacrifices for the good of their people and the world. In a way, Lucina's scene in chapter 21 gives me a twofold problem:

1) Not killing the avatar: Lucina truly believes that killing the avatar will save the future, and this is her whole purpose for traveling back in time - to stop the future that she came from. That she cannot make the sacrifice when the avatar is her own beloved mother or husband makes her seem selfish and a bit weak. That her resolve was never that strong and she's just going to (in her mind) doom the future because of her weakness.

2) Killing the avatar: an avatar who is not her mother or husband she would've killed (or attempted to) without a second thought because she believes it would save the future. The fact that she may be killing anyone else's loved one (even if the avatar is her uncle through Lissa, her cousin's wife, or her brother- or sister-in-law)doesn't matter to her. Only when it is her own precious mother or husband does it suddenly matter to her. In a way, it's selfish, the avatar's life only matters when it's her own loved one but nary a consideration for anyone else's.

I don't mind the special conversation, the deeper struggle when it is her mother or husband. I just wish she came to the same conclusion in all three versions: either murder is wrong, or that the avatar must die to secure the future. Making an exception for her loved one makes her look weak in my eyes, especially when FE has a history of lords making difficult decisions for the good of the people.

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That's pretty much it, the scene makes her seem selfish. It also makes Chrom seem selfish at the end of the game if the player decides to have him deal the final blow to Grima. He's basically choosing his wife over millions of other innocent lives.

I meant conversations. >.>

Ah. My bad.

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Yeah, Sangyul always explains it better than I ever can. I'm just not good at such explanations. xP

A bit off topic, but I noticed that these Avatar pairings weren't the only ones that made me see the story a bit differently. It's minor, but because my Avatar was married to Frederick, the scene with the burning ships felt a bit more special than it normally would have. Because Frederick goes "It worked! It worked!" referring to the Avatar's strategy. If he's married to her, he's cheering on his wife like the loving husband he is! Not just cheering for a friend/comrade.

Just saying. It's minor though lol and doesn't make the story better or anything, I just liked the scene more. XD

Edited by Anacybele
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The reason the chapter 21 scene made me dislike Lucina's character is actually the same problem I had with Chrom. FE as a series has a history of lords and royals who have to make difficult decisions and sacrifices for the good of their people and the world. In a way, Lucina's scene in chapter 21 gives me a twofold problem:

1) Not killing the avatar: Lucina truly believes that killing the avatar will save the future, and this is her whole purpose for traveling back in time - to stop the future that she came from. That she cannot make the sacrifice when the avatar is her own beloved mother or husband makes her seem selfish and a bit weak. That her resolve was never that strong and she's just going to (in her mind) doom the future because of her weakness.

2) Killing the avatar: an avatar who is not her mother or husband she would've killed (or attempted to) without a second thought because she believes it would save the future. The fact that she may be killing anyone else's loved one (even if the avatar is her uncle through Lissa, her cousin's wife, or her brother- or sister-in-law)doesn't matter to her. Only when it is her own precious mother or husband does it suddenly matter to her. In a way, it's selfish, the avatar's life only matters when it's her own loved one but nary a consideration for anyone else's.

I don't mind the special conversation, the deeper struggle when it is her mother or husband. I just wish she came to the same conclusion in all three versions: either murder is wrong, or that the avatar must die to secure the future. Making an exception for her loved one makes her look weak in my eyes, especially when FE has a history of lords making difficult decisions for the good of the people.

This is a fantastic analysis, I gotta say. And now that you mention it, I find myself in agreement -- they should have given Lucina the same response to killing the Avatar in all three scenarios (I would lean towards her deciding not to kill and instead let "destiny" be rewritten). That being said, I still love her relationship with Robin, as either husband or mother, and just how that scene plays out. Like I said, I wish she came to the same conclusion even if Robin wasn't a loved one, but c'est la vie I suppose.

I don't think it necessarily makes her "weak" though. It opens up a huge discussion on love and moral philosophy and everything in between. I mean, would you be 100% committed to ending a loved one's life so that X number of people a thousand years from now don't get killed by a giant dragon? (And then there's the fact that you don't know what will happen, how many people will die, or even if humanity exists at all in that rebirth of Grima.) Any room for doubt and any semblance of love you feel for the person you're supposed to kill can overwhelm you, and that's the human condition; I don't think Lucina and Chrom weak if they choose their loved one over the "kill Grima for good" option. That's why I think certain parts of FE13 are great exercises in "greater good" ethics.

A bit off topic, but I noticed that these Avatar pairings weren't the only ones that made me see the story a bit differently. It's minor, but because my Avatar was married to Frederick, the scene with the burning ships felt a bit more special than it normally would have. Because Frederick goes "It worked! It worked!" referring to the Avatar's strategy. If he's married to her, he's cheering on his wife like the loving husband he is! Not just cheering for a friend/comrade.

That's wicked cute XD

Edited by Red Fox of Fire
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Haha, yes, yes it is! And it boosted my fondness for the pairing a bit. ^^

But you can edit your posts by the way. Double posting isn't allowed. :P

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I don't think it necessarily makes her "weak" though. It opens up a huge discussion on love and moral philosophy and everything in between. I mean, would you be 100% committed to ending a loved one's life so that X number of people a thousand years from now don't get killed by a giant dragon? (And then there's the fact that you don't know what will happen, how many people will die, or even if humanity exists at all in that rebirth of Grima.) Any room for doubt and any semblance of love you feel for the person you're supposed to kill can overwhelm you, and that's the human condition; I don't think Lucina and Chrom weak if they choose their loved one over the "kill Grima for good" option. That's why I think certain parts of FE13 are great exercises in "greater good" ethics.

When I think about FE lords making difficult personal sacrifices for the good of their people, I think of Elincia in FE10. Even if Lucia didn't actually die because of the Greil Mercenaries having good timing, Elincia made the difficult decision to sacrifice Lucia's life to keep Ludveck off the throne and accept her faults for letting the rebellion in Crimea get to the point it did.

And while it is true that not everyone can make such a difficult decision, I think FE13's poor writing and Chrom's outright hypocrisy in one scene makes it a lot worse in Awakening specifically. Chrom has no right to be telling Aversa "the life of one person does not matter over the life of millions" when he cannot let go of his precious avatar when the same logic is thrown back at him. To some people, Lucina having a double standard about who she's going to kill depending on their relationship to her is not really all that admirable, even if it's understandable.

I think if Awakening discussed and brought to light the shortcomings that Emmeryn, Chrom, and Lucina have as exalt (such as, difficulty in letting go of the people they love for the greater good, or just not being a strong ruler like Emmeryn) I would not have such an issue with this. But the game seems to ignore their protagonists' flaws and just expect people to love them.

Chrom's a prince and eventually exalt. Lucina came from a difficult future where she lost many people she loved and she is one of the only hopes to save the world (and was probably also raised to be the exalt while Chrom might not have been). I'd think the latter at least would be able to make personal sacrifices to stop the hellhole she came from. And that her resolve is so easily SHAKEN just really bugs me.

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....Hahaha sorry, I'm new here =P

Is there a way to delete a specific post?

Don't worry, new people make mistakes a lot. :P

And only mods can delete posts, I'm afraid.

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No, there are no canon pairings.

The reason the chapter 21 scene made me dislike Lucina's character is actually the same problem I had with Chrom. FE as a series has a history of lords and royals who have to make difficult decisions and sacrifices for the good of their people and the world. In a way, Lucina's scene in chapter 21 gives me a twofold problem:

1) Not killing the avatar: Lucina truly believes that killing the avatar will save the future, and this is her whole purpose for traveling back in time - to stop the future that she came from. That she cannot make the sacrifice when the avatar is her own beloved mother or husband makes her seem selfish and a bit weak. That her resolve was never that strong and she's just going to (in her mind) doom the future because of her weakness.

2) Killing the avatar: an avatar who is not her mother or husband she would've killed (or attempted to) without a second thought because she believes it would save the future. The fact that she may be killing anyone else's loved one (even if the avatar is her uncle through Lissa, her cousin's wife, or her brother- or sister-in-law)doesn't matter to her. Only when it is her own precious mother or husband does it suddenly matter to her. In a way, it's selfish, the avatar's life only matters when it's her own loved one but nary a consideration for anyone else's.

I don't mind the special conversation, the deeper struggle when it is her mother or husband. I just wish she came to the same conclusion in all three versions: either murder is wrong, or that the avatar must die to secure the future. Making an exception for her loved one makes her look weak in my eyes, especially when FE has a history of lords making difficult decisions for the good of the people.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Are you saying you don't like it because Lucina shows weakness? That is exactly why I like it. It shows that Lucina isn't as duty-bound and headstrong as she comes off; she has people she cares about, too, and if it comes to saving the world or saving the people she loves, she can't make the decision so easily, much as she wants to. Daughter/Wife to Robin or not, both versions of the scene make sense, but the version in which she doesn't have any relation to Robin doesn't have as much impact because the decision isn't personal to her.

Is that not what you're saying? Are you only saying you don't like that she can come to different conclusions? Why? Of course it's going to be harder if she has a personal relationship to Robin, and yes, that can easily change the final decision. If you had to kill your own mother/wife/whoever in life you love the most to save the world, would you find it just the same as killing a stranger, or even just a friend? Can you really say your decision in one scenario would be the same as in the other?

Yeah, it's noble and all for a person in power to sacrifice someone they love for the good of the people, but not everyone is as strong as that, and Lucina being unable to do so doesn't make her a worse character.

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Sorry if I misunderstood that, it sounded like you were trying to say that the special conversations meant that the game was pushing it.

The reason the chapter 21 scene made me dislike Lucina's character is actually the same problem I had with Chrom. FE as a series has a history of lords and royals who have to make difficult decisions and sacrifices for the good of their people and the world. In a way, Lucina's scene in chapter 21 gives me a twofold problem:

1) Not killing the avatar: Lucina truly believes that killing the avatar will save the future, and this is her whole purpose for traveling back in time - to stop the future that she came from. That she cannot make the sacrifice when the avatar is her own beloved mother or husband makes her seem selfish and a bit weak. That her resolve was never that strong and she's just going to (in her mind) doom the future because of her weakness.

2) Killing the avatar: an avatar who is not her mother or husband she would've killed (or attempted to) without a second thought because she believes it would save the future. The fact that she may be killing anyone else's loved one (even if the avatar is her uncle through Lissa, her cousin's wife, or her brother- or sister-in-law)doesn't matter to her. Only when it is her own precious mother or husband does it suddenly matter to her. In a way, it's selfish, the avatar's life only matters when it's her own loved one but nary a consideration for anyone else's.

I don't mind the special conversation, the deeper struggle when it is her mother or husband. I just wish she came to the same conclusion in all three versions: either murder is wrong, or that the avatar must die to secure the future. Making an exception for her loved one makes her look weak in my eyes, especially when FE has a history of lords making difficult decisions for the good of the people.

Yes, it is absolutely selfish that she cannot bring herself to kill the avatar for that very reason. However like Red Fox of Fire said before me, the very fact that she cannot bring herself to do this is why I like the scene so much. She cannot bring herself to do what may be right out of love for her loved ones.

Also there is a very glaring point of hypocrisy in that scene from Lucina that I don't believe anyone has brought up yet. However it one that I like for being there rather than disliking:

Lucina believes that she can change the future by coming back, and working hard with the shepherds. HOWEVER she still believes in fate somewhat enough that she is deadset on thinking that the Avatar will wind up killing Chrom someday. That's a serious half measure. If she truly was coming back to break down fate entirely, it would've made more sense just to go "Screw whatever happened before, this is our new world! The avatar is not killing Chrom at all in this world! I believe in all!"

It is reasonable to dislike the scene because of what I mentioned, but it actually made me like it more once I realized the hypocrisy was there, because it meant that Lucina WAS coming back to change fate, but was much too worried, and concerned for her father's safety that she was unable to believe fully in her own ideals, and broke her own standards that she erected for changing the future. Double standard indeed, but one I can understand.

I think if Awakening discussed and brought to light the shortcomings that Emmeryn, Chrom, and Lucina have as exalt (such as, difficulty in letting go of the people they love for the greater good, or just not being a strong ruler like Emmeryn) I would not have such an issue with this. But the game seems to ignore their protagonists' flaws and just expect people to love them.

This seems to be a place where many people will diverge on opinions, because some people like characters for being completely reasonable while others like them for being sentimental even if it means they do non-logical things while others still like them for being well portrayed even if they're completely horrible people.

----------------------------------------------------

Anyways I think this is getting somewhat off-topic here. I'll go, and make another thread on the matter if everyone loves talking about it so much. XD

Edited by Kreekakon
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I don't like it because of the hypocrisy and inconsistency in that scene. I would've respected her a LOT more if she'd came to the same conclusion in both scenes. If she decided to kill the avatar in both, then she would've been someone who is able to put aside her own personal feelings for what she believes is the best for the millions of people in the world. If she decided in both that she couldn't kill the avatar, then it shows that she still has a part of her that isn't so devoted to duty, that she isn't as "duty bound and headstrong", that her emotions are not so far gone.

That she puts the lives of her mother and husband above everyone else's loved ones is what I don't like. Because now, she's 1) willing to let the future of hell occur because she looooves her mother or husband too much, and 2) doesn't extend the same consideration (this person is too important to someone) to anyone else's loved ones.

Lucina (and Chrom) are lords. They are the exalts of Ylisse. They are the only ones in the entire fucking universe of this game who have the power to do ANYTHING to stop the Fell Dragon. If Lucina and Chrom were supposed to be portrayed as lords who just lack that resolve to put duty over devotion, then as long as it was portrayed with both its positives AND its negatives, I wouldn't have such an issue with it. The problem I have is that Chrom and Lucina seem to suddenly ignore the horrors that Grima can wreck on the world because it's their loved one they must give up, and Chrom effectively passes on the burdens of Grima to a future generation so the avatar won't have to die.

All other previous FE lords either grow strong enough to make that sacrifice, or their naivety and "weakness" is portrayed in a negative manner. I don't see why Lucina (and Chrom) should get a pass. Elincia grew up to become a better ruler, even if meant she had to sacrifice her sister. Eirika has caught grief for handing over Rausten's Sacred Stone to Lyon and for thinking about using it to undo the events of FE8 from some members of the FE community. I find Lucina and Chrom's inability to put their loved ones over future generations AND NOT GET ANY FLAK ABOUT IT FROM THE GAME'S STANDPOINT (this is my key issue right here) to be something that doesn't appeal to me.

Yes, Lucina's indecision makes her human. No, not everyone will agree with my views of this scene. I find that most people don't. However, this is how I personally feel about it. I have given this scene much thought, and I don't see my mind changing on it anytime soon. The chapter 21 scene is THE reason I don't liker her anymore.

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1) Not killing the avatar: Lucina truly believes that killing the avatar will save the future, and this is her whole purpose for traveling back in time - to stop the future that she came from. That she cannot make the sacrifice when the avatar is her own beloved mother or husband makes her seem selfish and a bit weak. That her resolve was never that strong and she's just going to (in her mind) doom the future because of her weakness.

If there's anything to be learned from the rest of the series, it's that having cursed blood (which Avatar!Lucina does) combined with enough ambition/drive to kill your own mother upon realizing that she's a threat to you and your mission isn't a good thing. Had Lucina gone through with it, she could have either gone on to become a Knight Templar and persecute the Grimleal until they turned into something even more dangerous, succeed Chrom as the Exalt and turn into Arvis 2.0, or even be possessed by Grima herself.

Sadly, any one of those could have made for a much more interesting story than what we have now.

Edited by Czar_Yoshi
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If there's anything to be learned from the rest of the series, it's that having cursed blood (which Avatar!Lucina does) combined with enough ambition/drive to kill your own mother upon realizing that she's a threat to you and your mission isn't a good thing. Had Lucina gone through with it, she could have either gone on to become a Knight Templar and persecute the Grimleal until they turned into something even more dangerous, succeed Chrom as the Exalt and turn into Arvis 2.0, or even be possessed by Grima herself.

Sadly, any one of those could have made for a much more interesting story than what we have now.

this would have been amazing

waifu-tier/10

even if they didn't become more dangerous, or it was just, like, a "Bad End" or w/e after the scene itself, it would be awesome

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I found it odd that she doesn't get a special scene if the Avatar is her father/mother-in-law. She can't bring herself to kill her husband if the Avatar is said husband, but has no issue killing him/her if Robin is her husband's parent, effectively erasing said husband from existence?

Of course, that would be following Yarne's idea of how time works, where changing the past changes the future, as opposed to a sort of multiverse theory (see: DBZ, Marvel, etc) where they're only able to save this world but not their own.

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I don't like it because of the hypocrisy and inconsistency in that scene. I would've respected her a LOT more if she'd came to the same conclusion in both scenes. If she decided to kill the avatar in both, then she would've been someone who is able to put aside her own personal feelings for what she believes is the best for the millions of people in the world. If she decided in both that she couldn't kill the avatar, then it shows that she still has a part of her that isn't so devoted to duty, that she isn't as "duty bound and headstrong", that her emotions are not so far gone.

That she puts the lives of her mother and husband above everyone else's loved ones is what I don't like. Because now, she's 1) willing to let the future of hell occur because she looooves her mother or husband too much, and 2) doesn't extend the same consideration (this person is too important to someone) to anyone else's loved ones.

Lucina (and Chrom) are lords. They are the exalts of Ylisse. They are the only ones in the entire fucking universe of this game who have the power to do ANYTHING to stop the Fell Dragon. If Lucina and Chrom were supposed to be portrayed as lords who just lack that resolve to put duty over devotion, then as long as it was portrayed with both its positives AND its negatives, I wouldn't have such an issue with it. The problem I have is that Chrom and Lucina seem to suddenly ignore the horrors that Grima can wreck on the world because it's their loved one they must give up, and Chrom effectively passes on the burdens of Grima to a future generation so the avatar won't have to die.

All other previous FE lords either grow strong enough to make that sacrifice, or their naivety and "weakness" is portrayed in a negative manner. I don't see why Lucina (and Chrom) should get a pass. Elincia grew up to become a better ruler, even if meant she had to sacrifice her sister. Eirika has caught grief for handing over Rausten's Sacred Stone to Lyon and for thinking about using it to undo the events of FE8 from some members of the FE community. I find Lucina and Chrom's inability to put their loved ones over future generations AND NOT GET ANY FLAK ABOUT IT FROM THE GAME'S STANDPOINT (this is my key issue right here) to be something that doesn't appeal to me.

Yes, Lucina's indecision makes her human. No, not everyone will agree with my views of this scene. I find that most people don't. However, this is how I personally feel about it. I have given this scene much thought, and I don't see my mind changing on it anytime soon. The chapter 21 scene is THE reason I don't liker her anymore.

Sangyul summed up my thoughts again. IS can have Elincia be strong enough to let Lucia go, but can't have Lucina be the same way and go through with sacrificing Avatar for the greater good? This just doesn't make sense to me. And Chrom's hypocrisy is dumb.

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I only consider pairings canon that you cannot change. Like Diadora and Sigurd (as far as I know). So the most canon pairing for me would be Chrom/Maiden, but not really because you can change it. But it's the closest to canon in Awakening for me.

(Just because the writers favour one pairing doesn't make it more canon, imo, just the character's first choice, if you know what I mean? Kinda like Colm and Neimi demonstrate how supports work in FE8, but are als the pairing for them that makes the most sense (childhood friends and stuff))

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