Canon Pairings?

[Anacybele]

Nobody said it was "a bad thing". This is your wording.

Then stop acting like it is. People saying that it's "unfortunate" and there was "no reason for it not to be possible" makes it sound like you all think it's a bad thing. If it wasn't your intent, my apologies, this is just how it came off to me.

I understand your point perfectly. Your point is tangential and nonsensical.

I don't see how.

[Etria]

I don't know about the others, but I think it's bad. There's no reason not to. Why do so many writer not just invent worlds where nobody gives a fuck if a person is gay or straight? Why is that so hard? Why does anyone even care about the sex someone else finds attractive?

Gay gamers have as much right to character they can identify with on this level as straight gamers.

[Airship Canon]

Homosexual supports would mean more romantic supports. And we know how well IS does those.

This is IS.

Not Blizzard.

That argument doesn't work.

Nobody said it was "a bad thing". This is your wording.

You did though:

It's unfortunate that they chose not to

Edited August 11, 2014 by Airship Canon

[GinRei]

They didn't even take the time to make a marriage flag for characters like Cordelia so she doesn't pine after Chrom (in event tiles and barrack dialogue, at the very least) after marriage. You think they'd go through the time to make some crazy "adoption" algorithm?

They could've also done something to allow a child to have their other parent's hair color (ie: their official default), so that pairings wouldn't be tossed out solely because people hated the hair color. Or, you know, get a hair color that's otherwise impossible to get (I'm looking at you, Severa).

IS cut corners, simple as that.

[Interceptor]

Then stop acting like it is. People saying that it's "unfortunate" and there was "no reason for it not to be possible" makes it sound like you all think it's a bad thing. If it wasn't your intent, my apologies, this is just how it came off to me.

I am not responsible for your inferences. When you replace someone else's words with one of yours, you do so at your own peril.

I don't see how.

Tangential: the tidbit you jumped on was literally a parenthetical in a post that had nothing to do with same-sex relationships.

Nonsensical: your argument against same-sex pairs in Awakening (hair color and inheritance) is nearly devoid of basis; two random people on the Internet basically came up with the same solution to the non-problem almost simultaneously.

I don't know about the others, but I think it's bad. There's no reason not to. Why do so many writer not just invent worlds where nobody gives a fuck if a person is gay or straight? Why is that so hard? Why does anyone even care about the sex someone else finds attractive?

Gay gamers have as much right to character they can identify with on this level as straight gamers.

Only something like ~5% of adults identify as LGBT, so you also don't want to over-represent. I personally wouldn't mind axing a few of the hetero S-pairs in exchange.

EDIT:

You did though:

Which was immediately followed by a quote showing that I did not. Word choice actually does matter in English.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Interceptor

[Anacybele]

I am not responsible for your inferences. When you replace someone else's words with one of yours, you do so at your own peril.

People tell me I'm at fault when they interpret something I say/write in a way that wasn't intended.

[Etria]

Only something like ~5% of adults identify as LGBT, so you also don't want to over-represent. I personally wouldn't mind axing a few of the hetero S-pairs in exchange.

Those are only the people who feel safe enough to admit it. There's a huge number of people who are afraid to admit it due to their environment. If you fear that you'll be stabbed or beaten to death because you're gay, you're careful about stuff like this. That said, one or two couples would be enough for me. Maybe one male/male and one female/female pair.

[Shadow Knight]

Hard to say considering this is fire emblem. I wouldn't say that any pairing is canon persay with the only one having a chance being ChromXSumia but there are perhaps ones that the developers prefer over the others. For example, in Robin's case in every one of his S supports the music in the background plays Id "serenity". However, in his S support with Cordelia, the music that plays is "Ha ha! Yes, it will take some getting used to!" (Literal name of the track by the way.) However, there are little touches of this throughout the game. For instance the intro movie having Chrom, Sumia, and baby Lucina, The love bird's cutscene, the final quote from Lucina after you decide to let Chrom deliver the final blow where she says that you hav earned her love which happens no matter who your S rank is. In the end I think that naturally the developers and story writers had certain favored couples just like the fans and players. There aren't any that are necessarily canon, but if I had to bet on a couple being considered canon it would have to be ChromXSumia.

[Czar_Yoshi]

If I may weigh in on this whole "same gender S support" thing... Any game dev worth his salt could make it work from a gameplay perspective (see FE4's replacement children), but it would be risky at best from a business perspective. There are probably a lot more potential customers that would be turned off by same-gender S supports and not buy the game than there would be customers who would buy it because of such a feature. For something that would take extra effort to add, it wasn't worth it and still isn't.

[Etria]

IThere are probably a lot more potential customers that would be turned off by same-gender S supports and not buy the game than there would be customers who would buy it because of such a feature.

I know, unfortunately. It's why I said that I don't think same gender S-supports would appear in future FEs. But a girl can dream, you know :P

[Maxkibram]

Those are only the people who feel safe enough to admit it. There's a huge number of people who are afraid to admit it due to their environment. If you fear that you'll be stabbed or beaten to death because you're gay, you're careful about stuff like this.

Lol. Really? Stabbed or beaten to death? Unless you live in Russia, the Middle East, or in a neighborhood of schizophrenic sociopaths, I highly doubt you'll have to worry about getting assaulted for being gay. This isn't the 1940s, and hate crimes are right below terrorism on the list of things that people don't want to associate themselves with.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Maxkibram

[Interceptor]

People tell me I'm at fault when they interpret something I say/write in a way that wasn't intended.

Sometimes when I pull up to an intersection with a four-way stop, the other people don't obey the right-of-way rules. For whatever reason -- maybe because I am not Vladimir Putin -- this doesn't turn me into a scofflaw.

Those are only the people who feel safe enough to admit it. There's a huge number of people who are afraid to admit it due to their environment. If you fear that you'll be stabbed or beaten to death because you're gay, you're careful about stuff like this. That said, one or two couples would be enough for me. Maybe one male/male and one female/female pair.

There is almost definitely some under-representation going on, but it's a fluid statistic anyway; as we know, there are straight people who are still kinda-gay. The point I was making is that you don't want to go overboard. Although I'd go one further than you and put a bi character in there. It's been done before.

If I may weigh in on this whole "same gender S support" thing... Any game dev worth his salt could make it work from a gameplay perspective (see FE4's replacement children), but it would be risky at best from a business perspective. There are probably a lot more potential customers that would be turned off by same-gender S supports and not buy the game than there would be customers who would buy it because of such a feature.

Are you a time-traveler from the late 20th century, or something? Not only do we have games with same-gender pairings these days, but it's not limited to niche stuff either: Mass Effect 3 (AAA title) had same-gender pairing, and they had a sex scene, FFS. And that wasn't even Bioware's first foray into the issue!

If anything, it's risky to even give off a whiff of intolerance these days.

For something that would take extra effort to add, it wasn't worth it and still isn't.

I think you're over-estimating how much effort it would take. There's no reason that they couldn't use the guts of the existing inheritance system; it's not like anyone bats an eyelash at Morgan just being a gendered palette-swap regardless of his/her second parent. Come up with a plausible explanation during the Paralogue, and call it a game. At the end of the day, "lolAdopted" isn't any more of a copout than "lolAmnesia".

Edited August 12, 2014 by Interceptor

[Topazd]

Then again, I can't really recall too many Japanese games advocating homosexual relationships. It's happened a few times, but I don't think there's all that much pressure from the LGBT community or any supporting or opposing parties thereof on the Japanese front. IIRC, the Japanese have a tendency of not protesting against or for sexual minorities. Correct me if I'm misguided, though.

Regardless, I agree that it's unfortunate. Implementing same-sex pairs could have made the pairing system so much more interesting and fleshed out the characters much more.

Also also, such a vast majority of the characters have been constructed to be so obvious fetish fuel that we might as well go all-out with their sexualization, goddamnit.

[Etria]

Lol. Really? Stabbed or beaten to death? Unless you live in Russia, the Middle East, or in a neighborhood of schizophrenic sociopaths, I highly doubt you'll have to worry about getting assaulted for being gay. This isn't the 1940s, and hate crimes are right below terrorism on the list of things that people don't want to associate themselves with.

Please see this (It's only wikipedia, but still): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_LGBT_people

Also, there's the infamous bible belt, rednecks in Texas, US politicians arguing that all homosexuals are pedophiles or zoophiles, etc. And you know what, losing your family, because they believe you're soulless or a monster or that you'll burn in hell is also not exactly nice. Or work discrimitation! D'you think most people are comfortable admitting they're gay in sports? You remember that football player that came out a few months ago? Most sports insider where sure that he ruined his career because he admitted being gay. He was lucky and strong. And he was suffering for it because his teammates were no longer comfortable showering with him after games.

There's still a lot of bullshit going on in them ~enlighted~ countries.

Edit:

Also: http://www.civilrights.org/publications/hatecrimes/lgbt.html

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-sexual-continuum/201306/are-violent-hate-crimes-against-lgbt-people-the-rise

Both concerning America.

Edited August 12, 2014 by General Asthar

[Interceptor]

Then again, I can't really recall too many Japanese games advocating homosexual relationships. It's happened a few times, but I don't think there's all that much pressure from the LGBT community or any supporting or opposing parties thereof on the Japanese front. IIRC, the Japanese have a tendency of not protesting against or for sexual minorities. Correct me if I'm misguided, though.

Game developers from The Land of Repressed Sexual Deviancy The Rising Sun have to sell their games abroad if they want to be really successful. NA and EU together are a huge market, and not everyone is going to get the Dragon Quest home-country sales advantage. Japanese people are just as good at counting money as everyone else.

Besides, there have already been several games with same-gender relationships, and a ton with implied stuff (including our own Radiant Dawn). Cat's out of the bag.

[Maxkibram]

Also, there's the infamous bible belt, rednecks in Texas, US politicians arguing that all homosexuals are pedophiles or zoophiles, etc. And you know what, losing your family, because they believe you're soulless or a monster or that you'll burn in hell is also not exactly nice. Or work discrimitation! D'you think most people are comfortable admitting they're gay in sports? You remember that football player that came out a few months ago? Most sports insider where sure that he ruined his career because he admitted being gay. He was lucky and strong. And he was suffering for it because his teammates were no longer comfortable showering with him after games.

There's still a lot of bullshit going on in them ~enlighted~ countries.

Still better than dying.

Also, I'm not sure how much you keep up with sports, but that specific player, Michael Sam, kind of sucks and probably won't play in the regular season. His career was probably going to be short even if he didn't come out. In fact, his career might be safer now, because if he gets cut from the team, the media will immediately roll up and claim the action was a bigot-inspired one.

Anywho! Back to the topic:

I might be the only person on this site who thinks Chrom!Village Maiden is canon. I mean it makes the most sense seeing that Lucina inherits her father's hair, personality, class, and most of his skills. None of Chrom's potential wives rubbed off on her in the slightest. Marrying the Village Maiden assures that Lucina is exactly what she appears to be - a copy of her dad.

[Etria]

Still better than dying.

Also, I'm not sure how much you keep up with sports, but that specific player, Michael Sam, kind of sucks and probably won't play in the regular season. His career was probably going to be short even if he didn't come out. In fact, his career might be safer now, because if he gets cut from the team, the media will immediately roll up and claim the action was a bigot-inspired one.

Depends on the person. Self-hate, which is not rare in cases of having a religious environment, can lead to depression and suicide. The number of suicides of LGBT members is much higher than of straight people.

Also, how about an example from my own country: Thomas Hitzlsperger, a rather known and good football player. He said he only felt safe enough to come out after he retired from the sport because sport fans and football officials are fucking homophobic. He didn't want to be "The Gay One" nor did he want to see his former team mates look at him differently because he's gay. (And some said that after hearing about his outing, they felt uncomfortable retrospectively)

But you're right, back to topic. I agree that Chrom/Maiden is the most canon of Chrom's choices.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I think you're over-estimating how much effort it would take.

I was mostly referring to writing another pile of supports and not actually coding it. But it doesn't matter how much effort it would be, because the end result is something with a decent potential to hurt sales.

[Red Falcon]

I think a case can be made for Frederick x Cordelia as well (one of the reasons I really like the pairing, in fact). Not only does Frederick fit really well as Severa's father, but his ending with Cordelia fits in with Phila's decision to make Cordelia her successor. Frederick and Cordelia's marriage ending has Cordelia helping Frederick to train new recruits. She would have to do this if she becomes the new leader of the Pegasus knights, as she would need to help train new recruits for them.

As for how I think Frederick fits well as Severa's father, she always complained that Cordelia valued Chrom too much and that no one thought she could live up to her legacy. I can see Frederick contributing to this because he's really devoted to Chrom as well, though I don't think at all that he would intend to leave Severa with the thoughts she has. And in Severa's father support, her dad is quite disciplining and emphasizes chores and duties, which has Frederick written all over it.

I actually think this is a better case than even Frederick x Female Avatar, even though I find that one could make sense too because knight captain + tactician is just one hell of a team. They'd train an amazing army together.

That whole series of text speaks leagues of truth. Wow, what a fitting pair! Severa also complains how perfect her parents were. Can you think of anyone more perfect than Frederick? :P

Let's not start this topic of "arguing cases" for which pairings can be canon. I can make a case for maMU/Miriel. I can make a case for Chrom/Olivia. I can make a case for almost every pairing in the game - including the ones I don't even like. I find that there are few pairings that outright contradict one another, so it's not that hard to make a case for why they could be canon.

We're just having fun discussing which cases are the strongest. My interest is certainly not biased. My favourite pairing for Lissa is with Henry, but I hardly think it's canon. I'm not out to disprove anyone's pairings. While my headcanon pairings will definitely change if I hear a better debate for a new pairing. I see some folks suggesting alternate realities, which is cool, but at the same time seems merely a blanket to protect their pairings, which is unecessary, rather than addressing the topic at hand. If you don't like it, I guess... don't partake in the thread?

Yeah, but 'stronger case than others' still doesn't mean canon. I can mount a case for Stahl/Sully based on their unique paired ending and it still doesn't invalidate Chrom/Sully or Kellam/Sully or Virion/Sully or any other pairing for Sully in the way that Ced's presence as Prince of Silesse in FE5 invalidates all the other pairings for Ced's parents in FE4.

No-one said the discussion of this thread would conclude that any single pairing is 100% canon. That's only a conclusion the developer can make. Therefore the point of the discussion, at least in my opinion, is not to say you can't have your favourite pairings anymore. The discussion is for canon-loving fans like myself to discuss and decide which pairings we think would be most likely to actually happen. That's all. Speaking of which, after catching up with this thread, it seems we have fallen quite off-topic!

I have to admit, I had quite a preference for SullyxKellam because of the name blend for Kjelle. Not to mention Kjelle would be following in her father's footsteps. But SullyxStahl does seem rather convincing. I'd say it's quite a high candidate for being canon.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Red Falcon

[shadowofchaos]

but there are perhaps ones that the developers prefer over the others. For example, in Robin's case in every one of his S supports the music in the background plays Id "serenity". However, in his S support with Cordelia, the music that plays is "Ha ha! Yes, it will take some getting used to!" (Literal name of the track by the way.)

Excuse me, you DO realize that makes it less special, right?

If you're implying what I think you're implying with Cordelia, you're only deluding yourself that your waifu is more special than the others just because they had a music theme mistake with MU/Avatar's PERSONAL theme set.

At least, I assume they're your waifu, as you have a Cordelia sig right now, nitpicking at that difference and making her "unique" from all the others.

Edited August 13, 2014 by shadowofchaos

[Sunwoo]

We're just having fun discussing which cases are the strongest. My interest is certainly not biased. My favourite pairing for Lissa is with Henry, but I hardly think it's canon. I'm not out to disprove anyone's pairings. While my headcanon pairings will definitely change if I hear a better debate for a new pairing. I see some folks suggesting alternate realities, which is cool, but at the same time seems merely a blanket to protect their pairings, which is unecessary, rather than addressing the topic at hand. If you don't like it, I guess... don't partake in the thread?

If you can't handle people expressing disagreement or opinions contrary to yours, don't post on a fucking public forum.

I don't care what the fuck people ship. But "justification" and trying to make "cases" for why a certain pairing is either "canon" or "makes the most sense" just reeks of trying to be "right", which more often than not causes canon debates - which get tempers flaring without fail. No one cares who's right, especially in a game with no canon pairings in the first place.

[Red Falcon]

If you can't handle people expressing disagreement or opinions contrary to yours, don't post on a fucking public forum.

I don't care what the fuck people ship. But "justification" and trying to make "cases" for why a certain pairing is either "canon" or "makes the most sense" just reeks of trying to be "right", which more often than not causes canon debates - which get tempers flaring without fail. No one cares who's right, especially in a game with no canon pairings in the first place.

Clearly I've ruffled your feathers. But please, allow me to explain how truly mistaken you are.

I very much welcome diversity of opinion. I welcome disagreement. For example, my personal favourite pairing for Sully would be with Kellam. This is because I think Kellam and Kjelle make an awesome walking tank duo. I also like their similarity in name. And their unison in class, using them as Knights and then Generals. Despite this, I've set aside my personal preferences in this thread and sought to think about what would be the most canonical pairing for Sully. In this instance, I'm inclined to believe it is SullyxStahl, the panther and the bull. That is not my favourite ship. In fact it is a ship I don't like very much at all to be honest. Because my preference would be to marry Stahl with Cordelia. So by that point alone, let me avail your fears that I am trying to prove my pairings right or seek justification of my own ships. That's not my interest here at all. I'm in pursuit of what would be the most canon match-ups from a neutral perspective.

Moving on, let me absolutely dispel your claims that I cannot handle disagreement, with the example of Sully to continue. If someone were to disagree with me, they would present a counter argument as to why SullyxStahl cannot/should not be considered be canon. Or outright offer a justification for another pairing between Sully and a 1st gen male unit, and explain why it should be considered more canon than SullyxStahl. The person in disagreement may even argue that Kellam could in fact be more canonical for whatever reasons (clashing with my established opinion that it is less canon than SullyxStahl), and I would be inclined to listen. That would be a disagreement with my case of SullyxStahl. Instead, what you did, was join this thread and basically denounce the value of it. Essentially putting forward the notion that this thread is pointless and useless.

Let's not start this topic of "arguing cases" for which pairings can be canon. I can make a case for maMU/Miriel. I can make a case for Chrom/Olivia. I can make a case for almost every pairing in the game - including the ones I don't even like. I find that there are few pairings that outright contradict one another, so it's not that hard to make a case for why they could be canon.

Ask yourself, how does this contribute to the discussion here? It doesn't. As I explained before, the purpose of this thread is to consider which of those cases could be considered more canon than others. Not to conclude that there is only one case and that all others don't exist. You claim that I cannot handle disagreement, a statement that I've proved is untrue. And yet it would seem the contrary, that in fact you are the one who cannot handle disagreement, via your dismissal of this thread. Ultimately the only flaring tempers being contributed are your own. As you can see, I'm very happy to calmly discuss the topic at hand and encounter disagreement, but if you're going to start throwing accusations and swear words affray, perhaps you should heed my recommendation by not visiting this particular thread. You've already clearly expressed your disinterest with it anyway.

Please understand. I'm not here to justify my pairings, I just want a public discussion about what other fans think are the canon pairings in my favourite game Fire Emblem Awakening. Thanks.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Red Falcon

[Sunwoo]

I don't think you understand anything about what's "ruffling my feathers" or what I agree or disagree about.

Ana is a walking flame magnet. This entire board is a ticking time bomb. I've seen previously tame "canon" arguments go to hell fast because some people start getting overzealous in their arguments. I wouldn't care about discussions about what may or may not be canon … except they always end badly in every case I've seen! It'd be nice to simply discuss why we think certain pairings make sense, but it never even STAYS civil.

Furthermore, why does it really MATTER whether one pairing has a stronger case than another or not? The game gives us the freedom of choice to choose our pairings, whether they cause contradictions or not. Really, I feel that the biggest reason people try to bring up canon is because they want to feel "justified" in their choices. They want to feel their argument is RIGHT. Which WILL lead to a lot of egos and tempers flying around.

You don't know anything about me. I'd ask you kindly not to make assumptions about someone you know, lest you make an ass out of yourself.

[CT075]

imo the only true canon pairing is maMUxfeMU

[Red Falcon]

I don't think you understand anything about what's "ruffling my feathers" or what I agree or disagree about.

Ana is a walking flame magnet. This entire board is a ticking time bomb. I've seen previously tame "canon" arguments go to hell fast because some people start getting overzealous in their arguments. I wouldn't care about discussions about what may or may not be canon … except they always end badly in every case I've seen! It'd be nice to simply discuss why we think certain pairings make sense, but it never even STAYS civil.

Furthermore, why does it really MATTER whether one pairing has a stronger case than another or not? The game gives us the freedom of choice to choose our pairings, whether they cause contradictions or not. Really, I feel that the biggest reason people try to bring up canon is because they want to feel "justified" in their choices. They want to feel their argument is RIGHT. Which WILL lead to a lot of egos and tempers flying around.

You don't know anything about me. I'd ask you kindly not to make assumptions about someone you know, lest you make an ass out of yourself.

Please re-read my posts and you can see that I'm merely reacting to your comments. And I think I've been very reasonable.

Why does canon matter? Well as with any video game, there are purists who seek the truth. I may never even play a game with what we could ultimately conclude would be the most canon pairings within a discussion on this forum, however I would certainly like to think about it. To know about it. So again, I have provided invalidation to your theory about ulterior motives to justify personal headcanon. That's just not my angle. For the last time, I am in this thread with a neutral perspective. I'm being very transparent with my agenda here.

As for maintaining civility, well, I'm going to be frank, so I'm sorry in advance, but...

- you enter this thread to basically denounce it...

- then post a comment saying that I shouldn't post in a "fucking public forum"

- then explain that your reasoning behind your hardly civil approach was actually to avoid the thread becoming uncivil in the first place...? And/or to avoid uncivil debates on the forums...?

It doesn't quite add up. And this is getting tiresome to discuss. If you have nothing to actually contribute to this discussion, I'm going to ignore your posts hence forth. Sorry.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Red Falcon