Questions to series veterans about Awakening

[Irysa]

This might take some explaining to get to the actual point, so bear with me. I do plan on playing the game eventually (completionism), although I haven't quite decided if I'm going to go mess around with SNES era FE before I buy FE13.

Awakening clearly has a lot of appeal, to old fans and newcomers alike. However, a lot of what I know about the title from various sources generally indicate the game is focused in "different direction" to that of other games in the series. And that is not taking into account the plotline or dialogue or anything of the sort, although I'll ask about that later. There's a lot of emphasis on planning out builds and customising through reclasses, numbers are higher, eugenics from various parents etc. Awakening seems very much a more in depth game when it comes to player control over numbers and playing around with them, and in that respect could mirror an experience you are more akin to find in other SRPGs. Then there's the whole aspect of postgame and grinding etc. I've heard equal claims of how terrible the map design is (pair up some unkillable combo and go afk on enemy phase), and how smart it can actually be when you don't do things like that.

My basic question is; How much of Awakening is really all that different? Are factors like these just extraneous things that add value to the core Fire Emblem experience?

I understand a question like that in itself is somewhat obnoxious, what defines a true Fire Emblem experience? Speaking as someone who quite honestly finds almost no enjoyment whatsoever in practically every other popular SRPG series; I would say that to me, Fire Emblem has always stuck out to me for how it maximises the importance of the most basic factors of the genre. Precision positioning within turn constraints, the seize objective, how much single points of stat matter, the finiteness of your items and experience pool, maps that get easier with thoughtful movement/planning, etc. Without meaning to be disengenous, many other SRPGs suffer on the absoloute basics, they function well enough but the meat of their gameplay is in the numerical tricks or customisation of your loadouts. The main maps amount to little more than ultimately moving at the enemy and killing them on a frequent basis, until you get into their equivilants of "postgame", or optional content that requires well built teams to succeed. In this sense, they're closer to the more typical Light RPG/JRPG games that I'm sure many of you are familiar with.

This all sounds rather negative I realise, and I'm at a loss of how to phrase it without sounding elitist. I don't consider this approach to be worse on an aspect of design, I just don't enjoy it very much. I am simply curious on how Awakening fits into all of this. Is the game still reasonably close to a standard Fire Emblem if one chooses to play so that way, and how much worse off are you for choosing to do as such on something such as lunatic?

On an aside about narrative, how bad is Robin in this game, like, really? It wouldn't be a stretch to say that Chris singlehandedly managed to make me feel so conflicted and upset about FE12 that whilst there are many things I like about the game, I can't really reasonably say that I like the game itself as a complete product because of their existance. The sheer level of self insert pandering for a character I don't even willingly identify with...it appears to be a complaint about this title too, but I'd like to believe that since this game was written with that in mind from the very beginning, instead of forcefully inserting someone into the plot of an existing title that it's incorporated somewhat better.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Irysa

[Czar_Yoshi]

My basic question is; How much of Awakening is really all that different? Are factors like these just extraneous things that add value to the core Fire Emblem experience?

It depends what difficulty you're playing on. If you're playing Normal/Hard, it's a strategy game not too different from any other FE until you learn how to play, at which point it becomes press-start-to-win. If you're playing Lunatic, it's an RNG fest until you learn how to play, and then it becomes press-start-to-win as well. But on Lunatic+... It's an RNG fest until you learn how to play (which almost nobody does, because it's so hard), at which point it becomes a game of precision reacting on the spot to chaotic circumstances, which is extremely difficult and extremely fun. Once you get past Cht.3, that is.

Compared to the other FEs, it's less about ingame and more about postgame. The final DLC map, Apo, is a test to see if you've been grinding your units when you play with no restrictions, and a massive math problem when you play with restrictions where single stat points make huge differences (but it's still 95% preparation and 5% performance, a good team still has the map won before you enter).

Basically if you try to play Normal/Hard like a standard FE and purposely ignore all the broken things (lowmanning, Dark Mages, Robin spam, infinite grinding), it'll be fun. If you try to play Lunatic like a standard FE, it won't be fun. Lunatic+ is another story and requires a completely different style of play, but is very interesting.

Robin: pretty much a canonical Mary Sue, who also happens to have the most overpowered ability in the game. The biggest offenders are Cht.14 (Robin massacres 100,000 enemy troops without so much as batting an eyelid), 23 (Robin the Self-Insert pulls off a Gambit Roulette behind your back, setting up a Deus Ex Machina complete with a nice plothole) and the Endgame (the game attempts to avoid another Deus Ex Machina by foreshadow the ending and fails, spoiling its own ending two chapters in advance... And then tries to play it for drama anyway and fails again). Expect plenty of plotholes and The Power of Friendship. He/she's also capable of romancing every single unit in the game (except your child).

Edited August 17, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Anacybele]

Awakening does feel pretty different from older FEs, at least I think so. The older ones don't have the marriage system (except FE4 which is Japan only anyway) or the pair-up mechanic. They also don't have endless grinding available or DLC.

[Czar_Yoshi]

They also don't have endless grinding available or DLC.

Sacred Stones has unlimited grinding via the Tower of Valni and random skirmishes.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Anacybele]

Sacred Stones has unlimited grinding via the Tower of Valni and random skirmishes.

Strange, I've never gotten any random skirmishes in the game. And I figured the Tower of Valni had a set number of floors since it's, well, a tower.

[Integrity]

the random skirmishes are literally all over the world map

the tower has eight (?) floors, but every time you go in you get shat into a fresh new first floor so you can get infinite enemies out of the tower

[XeKr]

I play Lunatic like (what I would consider to be) standard FE (whatever that means >_>. basically I play the same way as I usually do) and find it way more fun than the other games in the series I've recently replayed. I also hardly play postgame (just Future Past, usually, with the endgame team) and find Lunatic+ to be zzzzz. So uh..

Basically FE13 is quite customizable and there's tons of ways to play it. The opportunities and options are certainly there.

Perhaps perpetuating the negativity too much here, but I find many misc concerns occur prominently in the series but are often ignored. If you really want to emphasize distinctions, many FE games play quite differently on a (somewhat trivial) level wrt having Rescue or Capture or Shove or nothing or w/e, or various support systems (or not), or various skill systems (or not), or various class systems, or various styles of difficulty/game and map design (stat inflation vs. obscuring information vs. status spam, etcetc)

Certainly FE13 is relatively close to FE8, I think, perhaps moreso than other intra-series comparisons.

Or consider games like say...FE9 (perhaps still my favorite in the series), in which Titania steamrolls with little/no effort/thought in HM and Marcia can do so even more incredibly, with proper resource allocation. So I don't think things like that should be a major point of contention. But to each their own.

also nice spoilers itt?

Edited August 17, 2014 by XeKr

[Irysa]

Some fantastic replies here, thanks a lot.

*snip*

Thanks for the detailed response, but to ask for an elaboration: What about Lunatic makes it "not fun" if you try to play standard?

As for Robin, dissapointing, but at the very least I'd hope his/her character doesn't exist at the cost of another (ie, Chris existing ruins Marth's character)

*snip*

Well, "standard play" to elaborate would probably more go in line with "not deliberatly trying to break the game". If you want equivilants, think bexp dumping Marcia, grinding in FE8, funneling EXP into FE12 MU or spamming Dracoshield Base Stat boosters, Warpskipping FE11 as much as possible, etc. In FE13's case, what little I understand falls more in the area of "set up ridiculous skill combos through parents and reclassing/pair up Robin and let him obliterate everything" or stuff along those lines. The question about Lunatic is more a case of whether or not the game functions well enough/is still legitimately interesting on a strategical level when not employing those tactics/playing without DLC. And that isn't asking about "is it possible", I'm sure it is, it's unfortunately the subjective question of "Is picking a team of decent characters you like and progressing through the game without exploiting shit not a gigantic pain in the ass on Lunatic", because I'd say it's fine in 11 H5 or 12 H3, even if you'll have to go slowly.

As for the other point, other games in the series certainly play differently, but I'm more making the claim that as a series I believe some of the most absoloute basic parts of what makes an SRPG are given a bit more attention in FE than they are in many other franchises, and that unites them as a whole, at least out of what I've played. You're misunderstanding when I bring up arguments I've heard against FE13, I'm only asking if the game operates on a decent level if you choose not to do that.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Irysa

[Beelzebub]

Sacred Stones has unlimited grinding via the Tower of Valni and random skirmishes.

Sort of, once a unit hit their level cap they were done. In Awakening everyone can reset their level to get every skill and cap their stats. The closest comparable system would be the dread fighter from Gaiden, which is bizarrely the only class in the game that lets you reset your class level for potentially endless levels.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Some fantastic replies here, thanks a lot.

Thanks for the detailed response, but to ask for an elaboration: What about Lunatic makes it "not fun" if you try to play standard?

As for Robin, dissapointing, but at the very least I'd hope his/her character doesn't exist at the cost of another (ie, Chris existing ruins Marth's character)

Lunatic: the enemy growth curve is wonky and will completely pound you into the ground once promoted units start showing up if you're trying to play with full deployment (and actually training all of those units instead of having them go sit in a corner). And enemies are so fond of zerg rushing that even if you want to train multiple units, it's very difficult to actually fairly distribute the exp. You could spend hours grinding Staves to get some staffbots into combat classes to keep up your team's size, but hat's hardly typical play.

Robin: Sometimes. The main lords sometimes (OK, often) try to do stupid things for your sake, though sometimes you talk them out of it, but you also repay the favor by doing stupid things for their sake too, so... Most of the times this happens have really good music though, so some people don't mind. Avatar-F x Chrom C through A is also one of the worst supports in the game, though Avatar-M x Chrom is pretty good. Chrom never had a previously established personality to ruin, though.

Sort of, once a unit hit their level cap they were done.

But you can get infinite stat boosters from the Tower as well through random drops, so theoretically it is possible to cap everyone (made easier with RNG manipulation to always get what you want).

[Beelzebub]

But you can get infinite stat boosters from the Tower as well through random drops, so theoretically it is possible to cap everyone (made easier with RNG manipulation to always get what you want).

Ah, true.

[Irysa]

Lunatic: the enemy growth curve is wonky and will completely pound you into the ground once promoted units start showing up if you're trying to play with full deployment (and actually training all of those units instead of having them go sit in a corner). And enemies are so fond of zerg rushing that even if you want to train multiple units, it's very difficult to actually fairly distribute the exp. You could spend hours grinding Staves to get some staffbots into combat classes to keep up your team's size, but hat's hardly typical play.

Hmm. How many units would you say you can reasonably use at once on Lunatic then? Full deployment is often excessive for most games in the series anyway.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Irysa

[Czar_Yoshi]

For best results? Four (Chrom x Robin and their two children). As a practical maximum? Try not to field more than five combat pairs at once (you can train all 5 as adult pairs as long as you get all their children and then bench some to make room for the children later). My preference? Two adult pairs and two child pairs for combat (usually Chrom x Sumia and Avatar x Cordelia/Nowi) and as many extra Staffbots as I can manage.

Lunatic+ requires some lowmanning as well to do without grinding (and it's a bit harsher on the upper limit than Lunatic) but combat consists of more than finding a pair tanky enough to survive enemy phase.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Refa]

You could always do Lunatic No Pair Up if you were really nostalgic about H5 Chapter 1, heh.

[Irysa]

Is Lunatic, No Pair Up, No Grinding even possible lol? I might just go for a HM no pair up run first or something. I wouldn't say I'm terribly nostalgic about H5 C1, hitrates were somewhat gross. Earlygame H5 was cool because it actually made me use literally everyone possible to clear maps. Until General Sedgar comes along wolololo (that being said, Sedgar's still nowhere near as dumb as supertanky MU in FE12)

For best results? Four (Chrom x Robin and their two children). As a practical maximum? Try not to field more than five combat pairs at once (you can train all 5 as adult pairs as long as you get all their children and then bench some to make room for the children later). My preference? Two adult pairs and two child pairs for combat (usually Chrom x Sumia and Avatar x Cordelia/Nowi) and as many extra Staffbots as I can manage.

Lunatic+ requires some lowmanning as well to do without grinding (and it's a bit harsher on the upper limit than Lunatic) but combat consists of more than finding a pair tanky enough to survive enemy phase.

So, 5 combat pairs meaning 10 total units? That's not so bad I guess, although I don't get why you'd want to replace them with kids if they're already trained.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Irysa

[Interceptor]

Until General Sedgar comes along wolololo (that being said, Sedgar's still nowhere near as dumb as supertanky MU in FE12)

Come on now, everyone knows that the MVP of H5 is Caeda.

So, 5 combat pairs meaning 10 total units? That's not so bad I guess, although I don't get why you'd want to replace them with kids if they're already trained.

Well, you'll want to replace them when the kids are better. When I did my L+ run, I basically dumped Gregor for LAURENT!, because Gregor had sort of fallen off a cliff defensively and couldn't participate in combat anymore. Similar thing happened for me with Chrom and his daughter, although in that particular case I think it was mostly my fault for bad EXP distribution (plus Veteran making her an amazing character within 2 chapters of combat).

Edited August 18, 2014 by Interceptor

[Irysa]

Come on now, everyone knows that the MVP of H5 is Caeda.

Sure, Caeda is awesome, but in an entirely different way! Wolf and Sedgar do the one thing nobody else (including Caeda) can do for over half the game - take more than 2 hits. That's pretty helpful in it's own right if you're not warpskipping, since it massively simplifies some of the more complicated enemy pulls. Obv without Caeda running around oneshotting everything and ORKOing every boss in the entire game you're going to run into more problems, and she's a larger contributor for all playstyles. But the comparison was more to do with the whole concept of "throw unkillable unit to the wolves", which Chris when raised properly is like Caeda + General!Wolf/Sedgar combined.

Well, you'll want to replace them when the kids are better. When I did my L+ run, I basically dumped Gregor for LAURENT!, because Gregor had sort of fallen off a cliff defensively and couldn't participate in combat anymore. Similar thing happened for me with Chrom and his daughter, although in that particular case I think it was mostly my fault for bad EXP distribution (plus Veteran making her an amazing character within 2 chapters of combat).

I was under the impression the kids came in with low levels/bases compared to your actual units and had to be babied (easier in this game cause of pair up) to catch up. I guess that isn't the case.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Irysa

[Interceptor]

I was under the impression the kids came in with low levels/bases compared to your actual units and had to be babied (easier in this game cause of pair up) to catch up. I guess that isn't the case.

They have low bases compared to your trained units, but not relative to their class and level. Since the children (with a couple exceptions) come as level 10 tier 1 units with inflated stats, their training goes fast. They have their own skills, plus two from their parents, and can be immediately reclassed into something else. With a low internal level, they advance extremely quickly, and often will cap stats in tier 1 before they can even promote. I had LAURENT! up to speed within a couple maps, and he quickly blew past both of his parents.

tl;dr: the parents have all of the cruft of their advancements, but the kids get a pile of free stuff and catch/surpass parents quickly.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I was under the impression the kids came in with low levels/bases compared to your actual units and had to be babied (easier in this game cause of pair up) to catch up. I guess that isn't the case.

A little babying is required (as in a little), but it's worth it when a child can take one chapter's worth of exp and be functionally tied with their parents in stats, but have way better skills/growth rates. The way the exp formula works in Lunatic, you can get through your first promoted class fairly quickly, but your second one (after reclassing while promoted) is slow as molasses- but since the children inherit better than average bases, they'll have the stats of a second promote on their first one, not to mention likely having two promoted skills that they inherited, plus a third gotten early into their first promote. This effectively gives them a two skill and 15-20 level lead on their parents after they promote, which is massive. Reclassing in base classes also doesn't hurt their exp growth much, and they start at a perfect level to do a base reclass, so they can pick up two more unpromoted skills and then promote directly into their promoted class of choice from there (parents can't do this well because there are very few Second Seals before the children show up).

They are a little weaker in Normal/Hard because their parents don't have to be as awesome to survive long enough to tie the knot, and thus can pass down lower bases.

[emmagine]

don't read strategies. don't read spoilers. Just play the game and enjoy it. at least for your first playthrough. Then you wont want to do all that extra stuff you don't like, because unless you get dlc, the basic game is no different than other ones in the series.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I give that advice to people who are using Awakening as a gateway to the series, but in this case TC is very familiar with the other games and is specifically asking how similar Awakening is to the rest of them and how to get the best experience from it. Given that he really didn't like Chris, it's a safe assumption that Awakening's "think with your heart, not your brain" style won't work on him.

[emmagine]

I think he's saying he liked the simplicity, the lack of the need to over think things, or to plan 3 chapters ahead character growth. While this game allows ypu to do all that in spades, on allowable starting difficulties, you don't HAVE to.

[XeKr]

"Is picking a team of decent characters you like and progressing through the game without exploiting shit not a gigantic pain in the ass on Lunatic", because I'd say it's fine in 11 H5 or 12 H3, even if you'll have to go slowly.

As for the other point, other games in the series certainly play differently, but I'm more making the claim that as a series I believe some of the most absoloute basic parts of what makes an SRPG are given a bit more attention in FE than they are in many other franchises, and that unites them as a whole, at least out of what I've played. You're misunderstanding when I bring up arguments I've heard against FE13, I'm only asking if the game operates on a decent level if you choose not to do that.

Yes, like I said, I generally play "standard" (for which it seems we mostly agree the definition) and it's fine. I don't lowman, or grind, or only use Nosferatu, or w/e. My first blind Lunatic run was quite fun and challenging. In later runs, I found every character viable, and full deployment (somewhat) viable. Given your examples, and playstyle from your topics, you should find it fine as well (though quite subjective, as you noted, so still ymmv)

I understand your position. My point is I don't think FE13 is against the spirit of FE any more than FE2 after FE1, FE4 after FE2/3, FE5 after FE4, FE6 after FE5. You see where I'm going? >_>

Also I'll note I find the story/plot/characters fairly amusing, but relatively indifferent wrt my assessment which is like 99% gameplay and not the other misc stuff.

So, 5 combat pairs meaning 10 total units? That's not so bad I guess, although I don't get why you'd want to replace them with kids if they're already trained.

yeah, 5 combat pairs is already 10 units, plus at least Anna/Libra/Olivia (typically) is 13. I usually include one of the Pegasus for just Rally Speed so that's 14 slots taken before children, of which you'll probably have 4-5+. Plus maybe Frederick/others. That's plenty to fill the deployment.

Oh and others have explained the children use very well. While you might often hear how they're not viable "in-game", I expect many simply haven't actually tried it. It's fairly obvious how their potential shines from their bases/inheritance. It's a bit amusing given the somewhat common facination with Est-like characters except the hype is most true here (children do surpass parents, quickly).

It's significant enough that children (with Veteran, admittedly), are actually relevant even against Robin in efficient play.

Edited August 19, 2014 by XeKr

[CT075]

Is Lunatic, No Pair Up, No Grinding even possible lol?

SB is trying to find out!

I might just go for a HM no pair up run first or something.

this is actually pretty fun although if you're not careful you'll end up gimping lucina

hard mode with pairup is pretty piss if you know what you're doing though so

[Czar_Yoshi]

yeah, 5 combat pairs is already 10 units, plus at least Anna/Libra/Olivia (typically) is 13. I usually include one of the Pegasus for just Rally Speed so that's 14 slots taken before children, of which you'll probably have 4-5+. Plus maybe Frederick/others. That's plenty to fill the deployment.

That hypothetical Peg is needing a lot of combat exp to get Rally Spd (far too much to justify on a support unit), and since the default Pegs are already some of the best units for Lunatic they should be part of your main cast and not an extra.

Adding all the children into a 10-parent team without benching any of the parents is certainly possible, but then you'd have 7-8 pairs, which is nearly twice the optimal level. 5 pairs is a recommended maximum, not average.

No Grind No Pairup Lunatic: it's definitely possible, Avatar could easily pull it off as a Sorcerer (with a little luck needed on the final boss and some careful maneuvering on the early chapters).