Civ thread

[Nobody]

So, I'm pretty crappy at civilization, and recently I started a game at difficulty 5 in BNW.

What you guys do on the early game? Like, what do you build in your capital, which social policies you start with, when do you buy other cities, etc (I'm particularly interested in what you do starting as Poland).

[AnonymousSpeed]

Well, in the early game I believe it's common to rush shrines so you can found a religion. It also means you can go right for writing and potentially get the great library. It's usually a good idea to prioritize science buildings, regardless of what victory you're going for. Most people build there first settler when their capital hits 4 population or has just grown and doesn't need to much else. I tend to be a bit late with settlers and the like though. Building scouts is nice if you plan to expand or don't have other priorities (like the Stele), as it lets you find places to expand to.

Tradition is what most people go with, and for very, very good reason. The +3 culture from the opener skyrockets the rate at which you aquire new policies, and all the free buildings mean that no matter how large you grow, you'll at least have four cities which will be decent. It also lets you build the Hanging Gardens, which is just unholy powerful (+6 food is about double what you make at that point in the game, and it comes with +25% great people generation through the free garden). It's generally just very, very powerful.

Strategies for Poland are very versatile, you basically get free policies for getting technology, so...yeah, that's pretty nice, and the Ducal Stable is always advantageous to build since it has no maintenance.

[BBM]

Well, the Ducal Stable has opportunity cost in that it's preventing you from building other stuff. I never fight with Poland until at least Bombers if I can help it at all, so tbh I don't really find Poland's Ducal Stable (or Winged Hussars) very helpful. It's a mark to how good Poland's UA is that it's still arguably the best civ in the game despite a mediocre UB/UU.

For policies, definitely go Tradition opener with Poland. Cool thing with Poland is that you can do a mixed Tradition-Liberty opener and still go Rationalism afterwards, because of its UA. After getting the Trad opener I'd go into Liberty until Collective Rule? Then finish off Trad (get the Wonder bonus first) and then head back to finish up Liberty. After that go Rationalism.

Build somewhere between 1-3 scouts to start with, depending on what kind of map you're playing on. If you get lucky with finding 2 religious CS's for a pantheon, you don't really need a Shrine, but otherwise you should build one after the scouts. Next I'd get a Monument and then a Worker and a Granary. Next up you should get a Caravan and then a Library. Around this time, the Settler from Collective Rule should probably be kicking in. You should make two more yourself, and send them out for some new cities.

Try to have your 3 satellite cities spaced out fairly well (between 5-10 is good IMO), and settle them near luxury resources if you can (or natural wonders). One should be coastal (two if your main city isn't). Cargo Ship trade routes give way more gold and have a larger range than Caravan trade routes, so this is pretty essential. Put one city near a mountain (again only if the main city isn't). Your three cities should target Monument -> Library and then after that just build whatever

While your secondary cities are getting set up, go for the Oracle. Hopefully by the time that's done your other cities will all have Libraries, but if not build some other filler stuff. Once everything has a library, go for National College. After that target wonders like Hagia Sophia. When going for wonders, judge carefully whether or not you can get them. Oracle, for example, is maybe not a good idea when Mayans are an AI, because they rush Philosophy for their UA, and therefore aim for Oracle too.

For the techs, Pottery -> Animal Husbandry/Mining -> Writing is generally a good start. Stick to the techs in the top part of the tree until you get to Education at least, unless you need some bottom-half techs for luxes. Philosophy for Oracle and NC is important.

You should steal a Worker from a CS if possible; if you do it early enough it won't be that bad. Don't steal from one that's being protected by someone else.

This strategy is mostly copied from a Deity strategy I found a while back, so it doesn't really account for Barbarians very much- the stronger AI on Immortal/Deity deals with them much better than Prince -> Emperor AI. You might need to alter it a bit to get some units in early. Archery at some point maybe.

[XeKr]

Autocracy is pretty cool if you started off domination in the early-game but are trying to make a mid-lategame tourism push. Futurism and Cult of Personality are pretty funny. Freedom is probably still better overall though.

I was thinking Autocracy might be pretty good as well. If you're going culture you probably have lots of policies, which, combined with Prora and the social policy that give you a portion of your happiness as culture, could be pretty powerful.

I suppose it’s notable that Autocracy is a lot better below Deity since the 250 Tourism from Futurism is flat (and therefore a larger percentage of enemy Culture there). On Deity, it’s good for a small tourism boost so you can easily get to Exotic/Familiar with enemy Civs, balancing out their ideological pressure and effectively giving some nice happiness.

Also, it has probably the best Domination-oriented Tenet in Mobilization, especially combined with Big Ben+Mercantlism from Commerce (also makes Honor more feasible as a starting tree, with the finisher giving combat gold and propagating a purchasing machine).

Industrial Espionage is also better than it seems (percentage bonuses in Civ are all addition based, so it ends up tripling steal rate or such), and allows for very flexible/lenient play since it’s so easy to catch up with it.

The ideologies are overall fairly well balanced.

So, I'm pretty crappy at civilization, and recently I started a game at difficulty 5 in BNW.

What you guys do on the early game? Like, what do you build in your capital, which social policies you start with, when do you buy other cities, etc (I'm particularly interested in what you do starting as Poland).

Below Immortal or so the best early strategy is probably 1 City Great Library into National College, then expand. Poland can Tradition-Liberty hybrid, but full Tradition-anything-Rationalism is also good. Poland too strong.

Tradition is generally the best starting tree because Growth=best investment, and Monarchy is the best early instant happiness Policy and the finisher is one of the best also (free aquaducts is insane). Tradition is the best opening SP tree in most games. Rationalism up to Secularism is optimal in near 100% of games. Everything else you can pick and choose depending on how things go.

Adding to what BBM said, you should almost always pick up Archery and build/buy Archers to fulfill CS quests, if nothing else (that is, if there's a barb quest, send 1 Archer over to it). You can detour to Construction before Philosophy if you really need to defend.

Oh also you can skip the monument if you go full Tradition.

Edited September 27, 2014 by XeKr

[BBM]

So should I post a new thread for the Civ draft or just post it here? I'm thinking also that we may as well just do non-competitive because Xekr plays on Deity and probably wouldn't find a playthrough under Immortal interesting at all, and I'm not sure most of the players here would want to do it on Immortal or even Emperor. And if we're not playing the same difficulty there's obviously no point to seeing who can get lower turns.

EDIT: also I tihnk the point of building the Monument in your secondary cities is because that way Legalism gets them free Amphiteatres rather than free Monuments (assuming you get it after your cities all have monuments), and the higher culture growth results in better border expansion, SP acquisition, and defence against the AI tourism leaders.

Edited September 27, 2014 by BBM

[Nobody]

Thanks a lot guys.

What's the game pace you generally play on?

[AnonymousSpeed]

I would say have a separate thread for the draft, and use this one more to talk about the game.

EDIT: also I tihnk the point of building the Monument in your secondary cities is because that way Legalism gets them free Amphiteatres rather than free Monuments (assuming you get it after your cities all have monuments), and the higher culture growth results in better border expansion, SP acquisition, and defence against the AI tourism leaders.

Doesn't the amphitheater have higher maintenance as well, so having it for free increases your overall gold?

Thanks a lot guys.

What's the game pace you generally play on?

Standard, myself.

[XeKr]

EDIT: also I tihnk the point of building the Monument in your secondary cities is because that way Legalism gets them free Amphiteatres rather than free Monuments (assuming you get it after your cities all have monuments), and the higher culture growth results in better border expansion, SP acquisition, and defence against the AI tourism leaders.

Oh, I was specifically speaking of the "full Tradition" case, where you fill Tradition before anything else. Poland does it extremely fast because of his free SP and you still get the aqueducts without the tech. You can then spend a few in some other tree before Renaissance and Rationalism.

If you build scouts as your initial build, your chance of at least 1 Culture ruin is fairly high, so Tradition is still filled at a good pace (even if not, the timing can work out okay). For Liberty starts or hybrids, yes Monument is usually built right after Scout in the Capital and first in satellites. But Monument delays Granaries/Libraries/Shrines/Archers/etc. You also need good culture (from other sources) to not delay Tradition Finisher too much if doing the hybrid.

Also Amphitheaters aren't as good anymore since you only get 1 Culture from them. You need a GW slot filled for the rest. Saving and bulbing Writers is a strong strategy so you aren't always making Great Works. The real reason you'd want Amphitheaters in all your cities is to get to Opera Houses and Hermitage earlier, but that's not that important in all games.

(imo the Poland Guide is not the best example considering it was Fountain of Youth + Wheat + Salt + River start. >_>. It works, but eh.)

Thanks a lot guys.

What's the game pace you generally play on?

I usually do Standard since I think it's balanced best there.

[MacLovin]

I play quick pace because I'm impaitient.

Poland is probobly too stronk. Idk if going tradition+liberty is a good idea though/

[BBM]

The game is balanced more for Standard but I play on Quick because it's faster.

[MacLovin]

on quick, wonder hoarding is easier.

[BBM]

Here is the link to the draft thread, btw.

[Rehab]

I remember hearing somebody wish there was a mode with Epic tech/year progress but mostly Standard build times, to make it so units are kept from being obsolete for long enough to really get to use them, thought it sounded pretty cool. I wonder if something like that hasn't been turned into a mod by now, would git

[BBM]

tbh that's pretty much a straight domination buff

[Rehab]

Bingo! Might give you enough time to really work epic tactics out of the terrain

[MacLovin]

Would Persia be considered an OP civ? And Shoshone too?

I find Germany to be a fun civ in domination games. Especially earlygame with the chance to recruit barbarians.

Looking at the tier list on civ fanatics, I'm surprised that Siam is where it is.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Groot

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

from what i've played from experience, granted it might just be me, but persia isn't that overpowered, good yes and suited for a culture victory that can also be a domination victory, but without a golden age you have no bonus.

meanwhile, Shoshone has an amazing early game with its scouting and extra land titles, but it doesn't have a direct boost to help it achieve any of the victory condition's.

[XeKr]

Here is the link to the draft thread, btw.

Incidentally, Mafia =/= Draft forum. >_>

this works I think.

Persia is definitely a very strong Civ since movement=amazing as we know from FE for war (move in rough terrain and shoot, etc). It’s also pretty easy to get a perpetual Golden Age with the BNW Artist generation. Just below the toptier imo.

Shoshone is godtier if you get like 4+ ruins, decent if not. A milder Spain, in a sense. Getting a good start is actually one of the most important things in Civ in general. Snowball effect and such.

Siam is solid all around since you always want to be getting City States, so bonuses there are good, but there’s a little luck involved there also with the early barb quests. They’re also worse on the Plus maps where you can’t find city states as early.

Edited September 29, 2014 by XeKr

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

yeah i think both are very strong civ's, though i wouldn't put them in the top tier.

maybe someone will ban them in the draft

[MacLovin]

Been playing some Greece.

I didn't realize Greece was this good at earlygame domination.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i love greece, they have a great early game offence and defense, and late game if you play it right, a diplomatic victory is nearly untouchable for every other civ

[XeKr]

Hard to use the UUs on higher difficulties (AI loves Civil Service), but yeah Greece is fun.

I just started looking more into the BE details and got sucked into the hype it’s pretty interesting. Prosperity, at least the first tier, looks to be amazing so far as the starting virtue tree (pretty much Tradition+Liberty in one), if the yields work similarly, which it does look like.

Seeding wise, Refugees is the obvious choice at a glance, but I think I’ll try Artists first. Pushes you through Prosperity and to the free Colonist fast, plus gives some health.

Tectonic Scanner looks good if Petroleum, Geothermal, and Titanium give bonus yields like Horses/Iron. If not, probably Retrograde Scanner.

For Cargo, Machinery is another obvious choice, but I suppose it depends on how easy it is to protect. Maybe Laboratory so you can tech something else first.

Trade Routes look very strong so far, so my guess is they’ll be the first priorities to tech and get up.

Still trying to parse all the other new mechanics.

[MacLovin]

I'm probobly going to get BE around the christmas sale on steam.

However, is it just me or is Indonesia kind of bland in terms of UU and UA. They're unique, but not that good. It's UA is kind of a gamble to utilize early on when you can use the boost, and that UU can sometimes get a bad roll.

The Candi is pretty good though.

Portugaul seems to be kinda mediocre as well. The Nau and Feitoria make up for it though.

The Iroquis are really kinda useless once you get the ability to chop down forests though. I guess it's nice if you don't want to pay for roads? The Inca have the better terrain-negation ability imo.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

yeah the Iroquois are considered in the bottom 3 worthless tier.

[Esau of Isaac]

Dude they're a fun as hell starting civ since they have such a good opening, and can expand and respond a bit quicker than others around then too!