Civ thread

[MacLovin]

I think you're talking about the Iroquis.

[AnonymousSpeed]

I haven't played the Iroquois, but losing the production bonus on a workshop? In exchange for being cornered into building lumber mills?

Yeah, they sound fun, especially if you play your forest use right, and who knows, the timing of wood chopping could do some lovely things, but for a forest civ I'd rather go with the celts for free faith.

So, what do people have to say about Belgium? I don't personally see myself using their unique ability a lot, though the polder looks lovely, and the Sea Beggar has some interesting potential.

[MacLovin]

what civs are best for each victory type?

Excepting the op four of Poland, Maya, Korea, and Babylon.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Well, for science I hear the Inca are good, as the start bias gives you more observatories and terrace farms let your cities grow pretty large.

For diplomacy, I only hear good about Greece.

For culture, France may be designed for that but I find Egypt or Ethiopia would do well. Egypt for wonder spam of course, and Ethiopia's Stele gives a pretty nice religion boost, so you can get all the culture/happiness/tourism beliefs. Ooh, Brazil though, I haven't played them but it's obviously what they're for. And jungles, unlike forests, are actually pretty good because of universities.

Domination has a lot of civs designed around that, many for early game. Zulu's have the Ikhanda and Impi, the Mongols have Keshiks, the Huns have a free tech and a great early game rush, it all depends on when you want to do most warfare. The Zulu's look very cool to me though, and the Impi is supposed to really tear stuff up.

[BBM]

IMO the best Domination oriented civs are Mongolia, Zulus, the Huns, China, and England. Out of those, I think England and China are somewhat better because they're more versatile and can go for other wincons as well, whereas the first three are pretty much forced to go domination at least until they pick up another capital or two.

Portugal, Austria, and Venice are also good Diplo civs. Austria with its UA and Portugal and Venice with their ability to generate high amounts of gold.

[AnonymousSpeed]

But as Austria buys city states, doesn't it lose votes?

[XeKr]

I'm probobly going to get BE around the christmas sale on steam.

However, is it just me or is Indonesia kind of bland in terms of UU and UA. They're unique, but not that good. It's UA is kind of a gamble to utilize early on when you can use the boost, and that UU can sometimes get a bad roll.

The Candi is pretty good though.

Portugaul seems to be kinda mediocre as well. The Nau and Feitoria make up for it though.

The Iroquis are really kinda useless once you get the ability to chop down forests though. I guess it's nice if you don't want to pay for roads? The Inca have the better terrain-negation ability imo.

fwiw you can use OCTOBE-R25OFF-GMGXXX on GMG for 25% off BE but I’m sure it’ll be 50-75% or so in one of the winter sales.

Indonesia: The UA is good but it’s usually hard to get good city spots on islands or other continents. Kris Swords are funny to use, but yeah they’re not great just because Swordman are pretty underpowered.

I find Portugal meh probably because I don’t use many gold trade routes until late, so the bonus doesn’t have much time to kick in. Feitoras are definitely cool though, potentially giving you tons of happiness around ideology time (should really try to ally city states though). I really liked them when you could Pledge+Consulates to friend every City-state, and get the happiness anyways from Feitoras, but sadly that’s gone. >_>

Iroquois are bad simply because their UB is actually worse than the Workshop it replaces. Also, culture expansion to forests is super slow, plus they're usually better chopped.

I consider Inca toptier for a variety of reasons.

So, what do people have to say about Belgium? I don't personally see myself using their unique ability a lot, though the polder looks lovely, and the Sea Beggar has some interesting potential.

Netherlands: Easy Logistics Sea Beggars! Happiness is really important so they’re okay overall. Polders are amazing but you need some luck. Marsh is rare in general and floodplains are rare with your grassland bias.

Re: Best Civs:

Science: I consider Inca pretty much up there with the 4 exclusions. Just on average way more Food, Production, Gold, and Science than everyone else. Terrace farm op.

Culture: Usually Brazil, but it can really suck if you get a no production Jungle start. Maybe Inca again because Science=Tourism via Internet/Radar. France is okay.

Diplomatic: Venice can cheese, even if slow teching. Greece has the hidden bonus of excluding AI Greece, which is really the only competition. <_<. Inca again ofc because Science=Delegates via Globalization.

Domination: Huns on Pangaea (Egypt if you get really, really lucky with flat terrain). Inca/Arabia/Mongolia/Zulu/China also up there. England usually on naval maps. Byzantium for fastest Archipelago wins.

But as Austria buys city states, doesn't it lose votes?

Yep. Buying cities is more useful for the accompanying army imo, less so for diplomatic.

Edited October 4, 2014 by XeKr

[MacLovin]

I wish the Ottomans weren't such a niche domination-nautical based civ.

Japan is nice if you get a coastal spot with iron though.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

maybe i'm being too picky, but what do you guys consider a good start, as in a start that's good enough to no restart for a better one?

[AnonymousSpeed]

I don't normally restart, but good starts, to most people, have an immediately workable tile with 3 food or 2 food/1 production, with the prefered luxuries to have not requiring plantations.

[BBM]

Plantations aren't that bad because if you're rushing top-tree techs you're probably getting Calendar before a bunch of the stuff on the lower half, like Trapping and Masonry and stuff. Luxury resources that require Mining are the best though, especially SALT.

I don't restart either, but if I have two different luxes and a wheat or two, that's a pretty good start for me.

Also, I tried Deity for the first time last night. Ended up being either Archipelago or Small Continents, and I was stuck with Mongolia as my only neighbour. I had a small army built up in preparation for him attacking me, but I foolishly moved them to my second city to take care of a barbarian threat near there. I didn't think it'd be too bad because there was a choke-point and a lot of forests between us, but he had Optics researched and moved something like 10 warriors, 3 archers, 5 triremes, and a catapult within my borders within around two turns. This was in the early-mid 40s btw (on Quick though, tbf). Lost my capital on turn 50 on the dot, and ragequit.

Pretty ironic after what I said about Mongolia AI being bad in the draft thread.

[XeKr]

Lux wise: mining > calendar/masonry > trapping > sailing. But sailing is the only one significantly slower.

Liberty starts are more flexible (but it's nice to have lux variety) but for standard Tradition usually coast and/or some fresh water are the most important for food. For the long term (lategame domination or peaceful play throughout), you’ll want mountains.

Settling on hill > no hill usually as long as you have some 2 food tile to work initially.

I’d say an average start is river or coast with some bonus resources (food or production ones). If they are granary boosted it’s a good start. But everything is doable.

Also, I tried Deity for the first time last night. Ended up being either Archipelago or Small Continents, and I was stuck with Mongolia as my only neighbour. I had a small army built up in preparation for him attacking me, but I foolishly moved them to my second city to take care of a barbarian threat near there. I didn't think it'd be too bad because there was a choke-point and a lot of forests between us, but he had Optics researched and moved something like 10 warriors, 3 archers, 5 triremes, and a catapult within my borders within around two turns. This was in the early-mid 40s btw (on Quick though, tbf). Lost my capital on turn 50 on the dot, and ragequit.

Pretty ironic after what I said about Mongolia AI being bad in the draft thread.

Were there city states to bribe Mongolia against? Did you send him a trade route?

If all else fails a liberty start typically gets a CB army and 3 cities by turn 50-60 standard speed (maybe 40ish quick) and could kill him.

Edited October 4, 2014 by XeKr

[BBM]

no City States on our continent (I met my first one with a Trireme like two turns before he declared war IIRC) and yeah I sent him an early trade route in hopes he'd be friendlier to me (and I was trading him a lux too)

[XeKr]

Against the more psychopathic AIs you should probably leave a scout/archer near him to watch his army, especially if you're both isolated. If you're not adverse to stealing workers from Civs, that'll also slow them down a lot.

Edited October 4, 2014 by XeKr

[MacLovin]

How do you use China/Japan?

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

How do you use China/Japan?

china has a good mid game domination victory due to the fire twice affect on ranged units, but they are also good with science due to the paper makers.

i generally play china as a science force, using my army to take over cities of those who annoy me.

Japan, well Japan from what i read about got nerfed hard in the later patches, but you more or less have to play them as a warmonger.

[XeKr]

China are great to practice your xbow domination. Go NC into Machinery, hopefully getting there around turn 100-120. Paper Maker helps early gold (+3 per city).

Japan are an okay domination Civ from their UA, but their UUs are kinda awkward to use (you want to be using xbows in the Samurai era and more Bombers in the modern. Not requiring oil is cool though). It can be fun to try Treb+Samurai pushes still. I like doing an artillery push, with double promoted Rifles from Samurai upgrades (double cover, or medic, or very close to march).

[MacLovin]

I know how to use the top 4, America, Ethiopia, India, and the Shoshone. That's about it.

well, I might try the Ottomans sometime, how do they work?

[Knight]

What would are some of the best civs for diplomatic victory other than Greece?

[AnonymousSpeed]

Well...China is supposed to be quite good.

They're ability might be more geared towards naval warfare, but I personally quite like the Ottoman unique units. Speaking of, England is quite potent with a lot of water due to their move bonus and Ship Of The Line.

[MacLovin]

Sweden's supposed to be good at diplomatic victories from what they seem.

[BBM]

Diplomatic victory is about getting to Globalization asap and making a lot of money to pour into city states. Anybody who can tech fast and/or produce a lot of money has a good shot at getting a diplomatic victory. So the top science civs are good at Diplo generally. So are civs like Venice, who are guaranteed to have a coastal start and get extra trade routes, or Arabia with their Bazaar + extra Caravan range, etc.

[Psych]

Diplomatic victory is about getting to Globalization asap and making a lot of money to pour into city states. Anybody who can tech fast and/or produce a lot of money has a good shot at getting a diplomatic victory. So the top science civs are good at Diplo generally. So are civs like Venice, who are guaranteed to have a coastal start and get extra trade routes, or Arabia with their Bazaar + extra Caravan range, etc.

Are the diplomatic Civs bad at it then? Greece and Austria are the only ones who really stand out to me when I feel like i'd want a Diplomatic Civ. Venice should be able to absorb CS too though so idk.

[BBM]

Well it's not that they're bad at gold production so much as that they don't really tend to do much with their gold? Like I was playing an Immortal game last week and the Mayans had an really good economy, making upwards of 500 gold a turn. They were also allies with a lot of city states and at the first WC after Diplo became available, already had 26/35 votes necessary. At that point, I poured all my gold into stealing their friends and preventing them from winning Diplo. And though they had thousands of gold in reserve that they could have easily used to buy those city states back, they pretty much sat on it and chose to not do much.

Greece is pretty much the only AI who actually actively attempts to use its gold to win Diplo.

And after writing all that I realized you weren't talking about the AIs... Greece is a good choice for Diplo due to their UA. Not really sure what you mean though?

[Psych]

Like rank the Diplo city states for me I guess

and tell me who stands out as non diplo focused but is good at diplo