Guitar Mafia - Game Over

[#HBC dewound]

This means all of nothing because it's something that kind of player will try to do as scum to look like town, unless they're Paperblade. What matters is what he's doing in those idle comments.

Ideally he would've been clear about what was wrong with the Larsa attacks and pressed the attackers to clarify accordingly.

I disagreed Larsa has been a go-getter and his Refa read being handled passively and not actively was an example why.

Larsa has made it clear on multiple occasions that he didn't find the self-voters scummy. "Not scummy" =/= "town" so what's the clear read here? "Miller claim could be a gambit" is not a read, it's a theory.

"I like these people" when you don't actually have reasons to like them is sleazy - town is going to have either gut or reasons behind liking somebody and a town read isn't something you need to contrive reasons for as town.

Your response to me also still doesn't explain how Larsa has been go-getting so uhhhhh

I don't know mancer's meta though so that point to me is completely moot. Is your read on mancer related to somewhat of a meta though? What is he normally like as town?

I feel lke you're mincing words with me or there is a disconnect from seeing our perspectives right now, either way, I feel the best way to settle this is to honestly ask Larsa about it, because I took Larsa's #31 as a read with him saying that Poly is purposefully claiming miller in a way that has ill intent.

*cue Larsa's response*

[Prims]

Prims, why call Dewound out on that when he's posting more thoughts than Psycho? He(?) uses the same standard of: I like this, dislike this; all the while having no substantiation of his own.

I have read Psych correctly in all of one game and would rather let other people interact with him before making judgments tbh.

I don't know mancer's meta though so that point to me is completely moot. Is your read on mancer related to somewhat of a meta though? What is he normally like as town?

This is game theory and not meta. My vote on Mancer is because of his actions. Mancer hasn't rolled scum in ages since last game was his first game here in a year but I don't recall his playstyle being inherently different from his town playstyle. Too early to make a snap meta judgment on him.

[Prims]

*recall his (scum) playstyle

[Refa]

Man, I'm not used to such a constant stream of content haha. Let's see if I can keep up. Spoiler alert, I didn't keep up, but I kind of skimmed the thread and Prims mentioned me saying something about Randa but I don't think I've said anything about him at all so...one of us has to be wrong!

The nature by which he does it with a miller claim. The point was that by attempting to draw attention which was obvious, the alternative effect was desired.

@Refa: The argument is garbage. Meta'ing a claim in RVS? More than likely a joke, if it's not-- well, we'll see. I didn't say there wasn't anything non-damning about self voting, his is merely a self vote without other context though; ie why I said it has no damning quality to it. I deemed it a joke self vote... while more than likely Poly's is as well; But the nature in which he did it is what's damning about it. As I said above, it appeared to me by drawing attention to himself, the latter was required. Could be a poorly thought out scum gambit. Noted your defense of it, Refa. Rev that chainsaw.

I don't follow your reasoning. What desired effect could Poly have possibly hoped to have gained from self voting? You said it could be a scum gambit, but you haven't explained why it would be a scum gambit.

Most people claim miller in RVS, so yeah. I've read the bolded three times and still can't glean any reads from it; this is either because I've gotten like 3 hours of sleep (which to be fair, is a possibility), or your read on Poly is unnecessarily vague (which is bad considering he's the person you're voting).

I didn't take it seriously, it was a joke to join your wagon with you. I don't really see how it was percieved otherwise. Prim asked why I chose you over Psych. I told him why I did. It was a joke vote to begin with, but Refa's defense of it seemed like a chainsaw defense to me, without a purpose to really attack anything.

If it was a joke vote, why did you give reasoning for it?

Right, I just saw Larsa's post where he tried to justify his Poly vote. It is not inherently scummy but it's something to note.

I don't like how Prims, BBM and Refa found Larsa scummy for voting Poly. How does that make him any worse than Randa voting Psych?

Something to note? Please clarify your opinion on Larsa, you've been defending him for some time (I hesitate to use a stronger word because the game like just started) and I don't really get why (if it's because you think the cases on him are bad, then refute my case).

He's not scummy for voting Poly; it's his reasoning for doing so that's scummy.

And, again, as I just mentioned, the situations of our selfvotes are different. Mine was inside of a claim (and plays into a joke in my meta of me hating D1 miller claims), Psych's was just an ehh vote. Mine was /meant/ to get more attention via my claiming miller. Psych's had no intent of that sort.

Is Psych's vote scummy? You've compared his to yours several time in a more negative light, but you've never mentioned being bothered by it so...

I am skeeved out by people going for Larsa over Poly/Psych priorities but not me, though. I essentially said I agreed with him.

I just figured you were WRONG. :3 But in all seriousness, the justification you gave (him self voting just because he was a miller being a bad move) is valid. I thought you just agreed with him about Poly being scummy, not his reasoning itself.

I see. Still, how is this beneficial for scum? I don't see how Poly's action, through Larsa's perspective, could be beneficial for him.

Also, you've told us that you're sleepy, but you're still guilty of doing the same thing as Randa.

Mancer's done more than Randa lol.

Also, it is personality, looking for a rise out of Refa if you must know. Abbrasive playstyle D1 for reads, yo.

Probably not the best way to play, all things considered. You don't get any reads out of me being mad, or at least you shouldn't.

[Refa]

I considered Mancer's early posts "contrived white-knighting" because Larsa had one vote and wasn't under any serious threat and "I disagree" doesn't get anything readable out of the anti-Larsa players. Town wants to find scum, "these votes are bad" does nothing to solidify reads on the "bad" players. He did ask a question once called out but Refa and BBM already had explained why they suspected Larsa over Randa, making it shallow.

This is what I meant. I mean, I explained it in my most recent post, but not at the time!

[Prims]

You said what made Larsa scummy and your reasons did not apply to Randa.

[#HBC Larsa]

I don't know mancer's meta though so that point to me is completely moot. Is your read on mancer related to somewhat of a meta though? What is he normally like as town?

I feel lke you're mincing words with me or there is a disconnect from seeing our perspectives right now, either way, I feel the best way to settle this is to honestly ask Larsa about it, because I took Larsa's #31 as a read with him saying that Poly is purposefully claiming miller in a way that has ill intent.

*cue Larsa's response*

Yeah, I was saying it could be a gambit with him actually being scum and using miller as a fakeclaim to cover that.

[#HBC Larsa]

Man, I'm not used to such a constant stream of content haha. Let's see if I can keep up. Spoiler alert, I didn't keep up, but I kind of skimmed the thread and Prims mentioned me saying something about Randa but I don't think I've said anything about him at all so...one of us has to be wrong!

I don't follow your reasoning. What desired effect could Poly have possibly hoped to have gained from self voting? You said it could be a scum gambit, but you haven't explained why it would be a scum gambit.

Most people claim miller in RVS, so yeah. I've read the bolded three times and still can't glean any reads from it; this is either because I've gotten like 3 hours of sleep (which to be fair, is a possibility), or your read on Poly is unnecessarily vague (which is bad considering he's the person you're voting).

If it was a joke vote, why did you give reasoning for it?

Something to note? Please clarify your opinion on Larsa, you've been defending him for some time (I hesitate to use a stronger word because the game like just started) and I don't really get why (if it's because you think the cases on him are bad, then refute my case).

He's not scummy for voting Poly; it's his reasoning for doing so that's scummy.

Is Psych's vote scummy? You've compared his to yours several time in a more negative light, but you've never mentioned being bothered by it so...

I just figured you were WRONG. :3 But in all seriousness, the justification you gave (him self voting just because he was a miller being a bad move) is valid. I thought you just agreed with him about Poly being scummy, not his reasoning itself.

Mancer's done more than Randa lol.

Probably not the best way to play, all things considered. You don't get any reads out of me being mad, or at least you shouldn't.

I think you're behind a little bit, my vote is on Mancer currently. Anyways, to respond to your points.

Firstly, I've explained multiple times why it could be a scum gambit, you're just reading it wrong. The claim, not the self vote.

Why did I give reasoning? I was asked for reasoning. And there are reasons as to why you choose to joke vote someone, unless of course you just randomly RNG a name. A joke vote can still be used to apply pressure and make a point with it.

Also, there's a reason appeal to emotion is included in mafia lingo, logic and the like. Emotion can be very indicative of alignment, so it's not to say that you can't learn something from it. It may not work will on you or for you but it is still useful, nonetheless. A lot can be discerned from the emotion behind a post whether it be true emotion, falsified, or the like. You can learn a lot from it, so that's why that approach was made. While it may not be useful to you, it's always a resource to be exhausted, or an angle to use to better your reads on a player slot.

Anyways, to iron out any confusion for you. My read on Poly is currently null. Nothing he's done is scummy by itself, but I'm still weighing the possibility of that claim being false, so it's in the back of my mind to compare with the rest of his play toDay and further on.

Please elaborate on why my reasoning for voting Poly was scummy, I don't see anything indicative of that except not knowing my approach, which has seem to be resolve for a few.

Anyways, I'm probably gone for the night now. We'll see though. Depends on if I can fall asleep fast or not.

[Rapier]

Yeah, the initial impression I get from my read is that there are a lot of antsy people who do things first before asking questions, which makes this thread kind of hard to read as I see a lot of things that I would categorize as null already being pushed as scummy, and I'm not sure if that's just how things roll here or people actually believe that.

*cough* Rapier *cough*

I'd rather have a weak case on someone than not vote anyone at all. At least this is how I learned to play Mafia on SF, from what I actually managed to learn. So, yes, I acknowledge that my case on Mancer is weak, and I'm quite sane enough not to lynch someone just because they refused to join the discussion until pressed by another player, yet there is little else I could be doing right now. After we actually get more content, I'll be able to read the game more clearly.

I'm fine with Larsa's explanation. I'm not going to nitpick over a joke vote anymore, especially on a phase where voting someone for weak reasons makes sense. I don't see any scummy intent within his RVS vote, so I don't see a point on continuing the discussion over it.

[Donald Trump]

Okay why are people taking my vote seriously

That said the claim is legit

because unlike my vote, which served as both a joke about my hating D1 miller claims and claiming it myself, Psych's had no real intent and was pure RVS

I'm not sure what you're finding to be overly scummy about either vote tbh

cool post is cool.

as far as the self votes go i dont see how drawing any real connection to scumminess is possible, but that being said ayy at least its generating discussion. if anything i think any further drawing of calling larsa scum from thisll probz be grimy. personally igmeo chaco bout it but id rather see shit develop to solidify a read.

@Prims: Okay, whatever.

@Rapier: "the alternative effect was desired" means it's better not to self vote and draw attention to one person, not that Poly's self vote achieved the opposite effect (of not drawing attention at all).##Unvote: Rapier, ##Vote: Randa since his posts are inherently unhelpful to town and contains absolutely no content at all when the rest of the currently active town are all discussing Larsa's Poly vote. Feels like he's coasting and/or being deliberately unhelpful. He doesn't do anything when prodded to either.

@Poly: Do something useful with your vote. Seems like you already have enough of a case to vote someone for being scummy already so why is your vote still on yourself?

the same can be said about you doe. most of what i see is either straight up easy (cmon. really wit dat randa vote?) or excusing your lack of content. when the game is 3 pages in.

##vote mancer

[#HBC Larsa]

To clarify to anyone who doesn't know who Chaco is, that's me on different sites, so you don't have to ask about that.

[Donald Trump]

Are there people really cherrypicking people's amount of 'content' already? This Mancer wagon is shameful.

dude mancers doing that tho

btw is there a stigma here about unvoting before you vote? just curious so i dont mess up in the future.

[Donald Trump]

lol shit my b i tried keeping your cover but dat profile pic threw me off

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

I have skimmed. Someone please explain the purpose of hashtags before our votes.

I will read tomorrow. If there is anything in particular that needs my attention, post in the meantime.

Gorf, do you get anything out of dewound vs. Prims?

[Prims]

Hashtags before votes make it easier to make votecounts by ctrl+Fing through the page. (personally I also think it stands out more)

[#HBC dewound]

dude mancers doing that tho

btw is there a stigma here about unvoting before you vote? just curious so i dont mess up in the future.

I noticed his vote on Randa but didn't really take note of it. I suppose I'm just going to be odd man out in terms of reading Mancer right now until someone gives me a better reason besides the ones I have been seeing right now.

I'd rather have a weak case on someone than not vote anyone at all. At least this is how I learned to play Mafia on SF, from what I actually managed to learn. So, yes, I acknowledge that my case on Mancer is weak, and I'm quite sane enough not to lynch someone just because they refused to join the discussion until pressed by another player, yet there is little else I could be doing right now. After we actually get more content, I'll be able to read the game more clearly.

I'm fine with Larsa's explanation. I'm not going to nitpick over a joke vote anymore, especially on a phase where voting someone for weak reasons makes sense. I don't see any scummy intent within his RVS vote, so I don't see a point on continuing the discussion over it.

So is your vote on Mancer because you think that he is scum because of the content he has shown or that he hasn't shown enough of that content? I get a mixed signal with you because you yourself are admitting that what you are saying doesn't hold much weight, but you are still pursuing it.

[Donald Trump]

Gorf, do you get anything out of dewound vs. Prims?

outside of this interaction i wasn't really diggin dewound cuz his mancer read is wack beyond belief. i skimmed this interaction the first time through but looking back i dont really understand their interaction. it LOOKS like it's supposed to go somewhere on dewound's end but like... it doesn't. i think prims' development is cool though. his 99 especially is legit. makes me kinda wanna body dewound but i wanna hear watchu think of mancer.

[#HBC dewound]

outside of this interaction i wasn't really diggin dewound cuz his mancer read is wack beyond belief. i skimmed this interaction the first time through but looking back i dont really understand their interaction. it LOOKS like it's supposed to go somewhere on dewound's end but like... it doesn't. i think prims' development is cool though. his 99 especially is legit. makes me kinda wanna body dewound but i wanna hear watchu think of mancer.

I just don't get the general dislike of Mancer, and a lot of people with their wordings of why they dislike him really makes me question if there isn't scum on it already, which I'm sort of playing off of right now as I do think that if any wagon were to hold scum right now it would be Mancer.

What do you think of Rapier?

[#HBC dewound]

@MOD Request Votecount

unvote

[Donald Trump]

I just don't get the general dislike of Mancer, and a lot of people with their wordings of why they dislike him really makes me question if there isn't scum on it already, which I'm sort of playing off of right now as I do think that if any wagon were to hold scum right now it would be Mancer.

What do you think of Rapier?

your suspicion of scum being on a wagon shouldn't swing whether or not you find the player in question to be scummy. believe it or not scummates bus. going against the grain for its own sake is ironically part of why i think your lack of suspicion is wack.

rapier hasn't really had any sort of impression on me.

[#HBC dewound]

your suspicion of scum being on a wagon shouldn't swing whether or not you find the player in question to be scummy. believe it or not scummates bus. going against the grain for its own sake is ironically part of why i think your lack of suspicion is wack.

rapier hasn't really had any sort of impression on me.

I don't like seeing the people who I town-read get wagoned, and I will gladly defend them. I don't why the possibility of scummates bussing matters to me right now fmpov.

I will literally break out a couple of paragraphs of why this wagon blows chunks if I need to, but the reason i asked you about Rapier is because he is one of the people who I think is scum right now if you want me to be blunt, which I've sort of highlighted in #116.

[Donald Trump]

i... i don't even know what to say @ the first sentence. youve talked a lot about not liking the mancer case but your only active (which was hardly active) push at your scum read before he responded was 91. aside from that youve fought the uphill battle that is the mancer case.

also your rapier reasoning in 116 is fucking semantics. im getting mixed signals from you. you say that one shouldn't pursue a case on somebody if they have a weak foundation of suspicion, yet this objection of opinion being the driving force of your scum read is incredibly weak.

unvote

##vote dewound

[#HBC dewound]

You're being obtuse about the subject at hand because I don't scumread Mancer right now and you can't see my logic, or that you fail to. I ask you what you think about Rapier and you blankly tell me that you haven't looked into or simply don't care. I don't understand how me trying to progress my scum read right now is suddenly 'semantics' or whatever shoehorned terminology you want to throw in there.

Why do you say things like this without substantiating what it means in the first place? I literally don't know the point you're making right now, you're almost telling me I'm wrong about how I read Rapier because you don't read how it is, and that makes me scum I guess?

[Kaoz]

Votals

MancerNecro (4): Prims, Rapier, HBC Larsa, Polydeuces

Randa (3): BBM, Psych, MancerNecro

dewound(1): Gorf

Gorf (1): Omega

HBC Larsa (1): Refa

Psych (1): Randa

Not voting (2): EvilG, dewound

With 13 alive it takes 7 to hammer. Phase ends in 63 hours and 36 minutes. (Countdown.)

Edited October 11, 2014 by Kaoz

[#HBC Larsa]

Your #116 doesn't hold weight in and of itself, also upon reading Rapier's post there... I don't see anything wrong with it. Dude says he has a slight scum read on Mancer, and that's the avenue he's gonna be pursuing, but he wants to see how it develops. I can see you reading into that as wishy washy or non-committal, but the weight your putting behind it is...non-existent really. There's not really any substance there. And really, what Rapier said there isn't anything wrong with. Seems to me he's just letting his frame of mind be known, which makes him transparent in motive and transparency is pro-town.

I see nothing wrong with him as a whole.

And I agree your defense on Mancer looks mad grimy, but not even connected Grimy. Almost like you're just chainsawing him to do it? Gorf, that what you're reading at?

##Unvote at this time.