Guitar Mafia - Game Over

[#HBC Larsa]

Your #116 doesn't hold weight in and of itself, also upon reading Rapier's post there... I don't see anything wrong with it. Dude says he has a slight scum read on Mancer, and that's the avenue he's gonna be pursuing, but he wants to see how it develops. I can see you reading into that as wishy washy or non-committal, but the weight your putting behind it is...non-existent really. There's not really any substance there. And really, what Rapier said there isn't anything wrong with. Seems to me he's just letting his frame of mind be known, which makes him transparent in motive and transparency is pro-town.

I see nothing wrong with him as a whole.

And I agree your defense on Mancer looks mad grimy, but not even connected Grimy. Almost like you're just chainsawing him to do it? Gorf, that what you're reading at?

##Unvote at this time.

[Prims]

orange haired anime slapfights itt

I couldn't tell dewound was scumreading Rapier until he outright stated it which makes me wonder why he prioritizes "X is ok" lists over pushing people who are mafia. ED1 isn't really the time to keep your cards close to your chest, why is Rapier scummy?

I'm down with both a Mancer wagon and dewound wagon. Agree dewound is hipstering the fuck out for no reason. Also increasingly suspicious of Refa. There are lots of quote responses but most of it is questions and imo that's what his case on Larsa amounts to - vaguely odd things Larsa did he can continuously harp on, but not scummy things. Was also surprised he thought he found a contradiction in my post but didn't really look into it. feels like scum!eclipse is ghostwriting his posts

On a side note, I'm curious how Randa didn't draw conclusions from Rapier's posts when Rapier was p. clearly scumreading Larsa at the time.

[#HBC dewound]

This is going to be a long and ridiculous game at this rate if someone can't agree with a small consensus without being a 'hipster.'

Your #116 doesn't hold weight in and of itself, also upon reading Rapier's post there... I don't see anything wrong with it. Dude says he has a slight scum read on Mancer, and that's the avenue he's gonna be pursuing, but he wants to see how it develops. I can see you reading into that as wishy washy or non-committal, but the weight your putting behind it is...non-existent really. There's not really any substance there. And really, what Rapier said there isn't anything wrong with. Seems to me he's just letting his frame of mind be known, which makes him transparent in motive and transparency is pro-town.

I see nothing wrong with him as a whole.

There is not much weight beyond the sole impression that I get of how he has handled Mancer, which I literally kept reading his 'I'm comfortable with this until he produces more content' line and I just sat there and felt a migraine coming on with someone sitting on someone like mancer where, again, admits that there isn't shit to go on. It is holding Mancer himself into a standard that will be never fulfilled and looks like he had no reason to be there in the first place. I wanted to keep this to myself for the sake of reactions, but I am forced to bust out about what I felt about it in general, and that honestly irritates me.

[Prims]

what reactions were you expecting to get here

[#HBC dewound]

EBWOP: Maybe I'm not explaining this hard enough. Let's say you're a townie and you see someone do something scummy but you're not really sure of what the hell it means explicitly. You usually feel things out before coming to straight conclusion because you're unsure right? Rapier didn't do that, he skipped the process of getting the read in general and then played his vote off the fact he wants to see Mancer 'produce more'. It really set me off and wholly decided that even if before I thought the wagon on Mancer was bogus, this was one of the most bogus ways to handle this.

I don't know what you're all seeing in terms of Rapier right now, this is literally his only solid statement regarding Mancer:

Your content is just as subpar as his. The only difference is that you questioned other people about their vote on Larsa, which is slightly better. This doesn't mean your content is good, nor do I buy your initial refusal to pay attention to Larsa's case until pressed by BBM to do so.

This all doesn't summarize what makes this so bad. It doesn't summarize anything, it's a small snippet that ignores the whole picture, and a picture that Rapier himself has *sigh* again, admitted to me personally that he admits is weak as a whole. It's fine to say that you're not always going to be set in stone about something immediately, but it just bothers me.

I'd rather have a weak case on someone than not vote anyone at all. At least this is how I learned to play Mafia on SF, from what I actually managed to learn. So, yes, I acknowledge that my case on Mancer is weak, and I'm quite sane enough not to lynch someone just because they refused to join the discussion until pressed by another player, yet there is little else I could be doing right now. After we actually get more content, I'll be able to read the game more clearly.

It all feels like a sad excuse to vote someone and I simply do not believe the conclusions or reasoning that Rapier has shown or given.

[#HBC dewound]

what reactions were you expecting to get here

I wanted to see what he felt about my approach on Mancer and my hard disagreement that I have been actively showing and hopefully I could get him to open up a bit more, maybe even contest me. I just feel that I'm either misreading how someone plays (that he mentions himself) or that I'm being undeniably stubborn of how I feel a townie would go about things, which I'll gladly be contested on as I know I'm not always right.

[Prims]

tbh that's probably environment clash, if I had no stronger suspicions than the "weird" thing I'd sure as hell be voting that person trying to get an explanation from them

also think you're acting as if votes have more weight than they actually do. if anything I agree that Rapier is being transparent instead of trying to falsely paint his vote as solid content

[#HBC dewound]

I feel it's one thing to say 'yeah this is scummy and I'm going to vote you for it' and another to say 'yeah, this is scummy, but I know it's pretty weak regardless. I'm gonna vote you, but I wanna make it clear that I'm waiting for you to produce more content until I fully decide whether it is completely scummy or not.' It might be an environment clash thing but I don't see the point of the vote there when you haven't made up your mind or feel you can get something out of it, as I've usually taken votes like this.

[MancerNecro]

I don't really like Rapier and Gorf and I will explain why.

I don't like how Rapier approaches the wagon on me: He leaves himself in a position where he can easily decide to move his vote away (because his case on me is apparently so weak) or keep it on me if the collective town decides to lynch me later on (because having your vote on a weak case is better than doing nothing at all). He's done nothing more than explain his position WRT voting me and simultaneously attacking and defending Randa. All these pings Rapier as scum.

##Unvote: Randa, ##Vote: Rapier

Regarding Gorf, I don't like his initial vote on me because he doesn't exactly say what he finds me scummy for in that post (not clearly to me at least) and then he switches his vote over to dewound when dewound questioned his case on me. 3 pages isn't really that much content as far as SF (and I) is concerned. Look at how fast day 1 in the recent game Qprogue was.

@Poly: I am always all over the place in my thoughts, even as town. How does my being all over the place in this game now make me seem even scummier to you than normal? Look at Qprogue, for an example of me being all over the place with my thoughts.

I can agree with Prims's case on me for not being as aggressive in attacking players in this game but that's because I'm trying not to spam the thread too much like I usually do, which annoys some players, apparently.

@Larsa: My post talking about the miller claim is to tell you why town miller would just claim off the start. I did not say that there's a possibility of a gambit because when lynching players, town would ignore the miller claim and scum hunt as per normal. Scum doesn't really benefit much from such a gambit since it doesn't really clear them as town.

dewound needs to vote someone and actually start scum hunting instead of defending me. I can defend myself if I feel that I need to. Instead of defending me, you should be attacking the players whose cases (on me) you think are scummy. You make me think of Bluedoom in Qprogue, when he claimed how obviously town I was and tried to ride and coast along his read on me.

[MancerNecro]

SF is really laggy today and i keep being logged out every few minutes. Whatever I typed will disappear and I get so irritated by it. Wanted to make my post earlier but then everything got deleted and I gave up.

That last post I typed out had to be typed out three times and took me ten tries of logging in and pasting everything fast enough before I get logged out to post.

Is this happening to anyone else?

[Donald Trump]

what i said was that the vibe i got was that you were making extremely easy statements or excusing your activity at the time of the quote i made where i called you scummy. and thank you for telling me 3 pages in isnt much activity, cuz i wouldnt have been able to tell by you trying to cover your "inactivity" at the time. but apparently not having posted much 3 pages in justifies giving a reason.

i could have gone on if i felt liks. but that wouldve possibly taken away from what i wanted to be seen.

but i will admit i can understand where youre coming from wrt rapier and was feeling those EXACT sentiments about dewound as he went on.

[BBM]

sorry guys was having internet issues last night and then my head was hurting so I decided to just sleep early

##Unvote, ##Vote: Dewound

It's possible this is just playstyle differences but looking at dewound posting about Rapier, the more and more he explains his read there the more and more I don't get why he isn't voting there. I mean, I don't agree with his Rapier read necessarily, but he keeps saying that he doesn't feel that this is how a townie would act, and if that's the case why isn't his vote there?

Then in #121 he talks about how he will gladly defend people he thinks are town and spend paragraphs doing so, but in #123 he just says he's not scumreading Mancer. ~Semantics but not scumreading != townreading and other than just go "man this Mancer wagon sucks" and "hey Mancer made some good points" there isn't an actual reason given for why Mancer is town at any point. Reads like white-knighting to me.

When I was catching up I actually decided Randa was town at some point because I figured it'd be easier for him to bs some shit rather than draw attention through trolling, and then I realized he was just drunk (are you even legal, Randa?). q_q still inclined to say he's town because I feel like he just wouldn't post if he was drunk scum but eh kind of weak.

I see from the votals that Larsa is voting Mancer but I don't actually remember Larsa pushing Mancer at all. In fact all I remember is the Poly vote and then saying that it was a joke. Quick skim of the thread reveals to me that his Mancer vote actually just seems like a misunderstanding between him and Mancer about what the other was saying- and it's about Miller game theory regardless. Larsa actually has very little content despite posting a lot. Also I don't really like his comments about Refa. He's kind of just mudslinging and throwing around accusations about Refa tunneling on him with no ground and chainsaw defending Poly (without even saying that he thinks Poly is scum), but he isn't actually taking a stance on whether or not Refa is actually scum.

[Donald Trump]

to be fair larsa DID unvote after the votals

can you go into more detail regarding larsa mudslinging refa?

[BBM]

Don't really agree with the complaints about Rapier's vote seeming like he was giving himself room to back off the wagon. While technically true it seems to me more like he was just saying "voting Mancer because this is the best thing I have atm"

also something I forgot to add about Larsa- when talking to Refa he makes it out to seem that it should have been obvious that he was making a jokevote on Poly and implies-without-really-saying that this is scummy of Refa to do but literally everybody in the thread at the time thought he was being serious.

unfortunately going to be out for most of the day

[BBM]

okay I missed that somehow even though it got posted twice...

but really it doesn't change my points against him because he still doesn't have any real content and I don't know what he really thinks about dewound either after reading that post

As for him mudslinging Refa, it's just a lot of little remarks embedded throughout his posts that still don't commit to a Refa scumread, like him saying Refa is hellbent on attacking him with no grounds, or like saying Refa is chainsaw defending Poly.

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

Alright, I'm a little out of my element here so bear with me as I adjust my bearings.

1.] First off, I find myself not liking the manner in which Poly claimed for the reasons Prims said; why waste Town's time by playing off your role like that? More on this later, because I see there was discission about it, but I'm logging my initial reaction.

EDIT: OK, Poly moves back to null on subsequent explanations. I still want my following question answered.

->a.] Refa, what has you thinking that Poly would not fakeclaim such a role as scum?

2.] Larsa's insistence on responding to every single problem with him concerns me. Larsa, why are you so focused on defending yourself here as opposed to looking for scum? I am reading page 2 and see you swatting flies. You are all over the place with your explanation of Poly's claim bothering you as well, and it is rather gross that much of your focus happens to be on your first critic, Refa.

3.] Southern Comfort is more gross, however!

4.] Dewound's 87 catches my eye. Boy, there sure are a lot of townies in this game but I'm waiting for the scum. Calling BS on Refa's Prims read as "too soon"; his earlier pardon of Poly shows he's a meta-dependent player and this reads as forced. Prims' pointing out of Dewound's calling Mancer's and Larsa's play fine is gold. Dewoundscum likes to take advantage of various SvT and TvT arguments so he ends up in good standing with both sides. Not liking this.

5.] More dewound vs. Rapier. The former thinks the latter is scum. Please lay that out for me.

EDIT: I see where you are coming from now.

6.] I will have a vig list soon. Also, this game has me remembering how much my site loves making themselves look like scum.

##Vote: dewound

[Rapier]

I don't like how Rapier approaches the wagon on me: He leaves himself in a position where he can easily decide to move his eak casevote away (because his case on me is apparently so weak) or keep it on me if the collective town decides to lynch me later on (because having your vote on a w is better than doing nothing at all). He's done nothing more than explain his position WRT voting me and simultaneously attacking and defending Randa. All these pings Rapier as scum.

When I voted you, we were still on page 4, so it is to be expected that my case on you isn't stellar, just as Refa's case on Larsa isn't anymore since it served its purpose to generate content and leave RVS phase (and I'm starting to get Deathbound feels from Refa, aka when he was scum in Persona 4 Anonymafia and tunneled a townie until around page 5 based on RVS votes). Weak cases, however, are different from empty cases, and I have reasons to find your actions strange, if not scummy:

I don't like how you handwaved the case about Larsa until pressed to say something, to which you responded by telling us you "don't find it scummy but it is worthy of note". This is a vague statement which doesn't tell us anything about how you were reading the case. Feels like you only bothered to answer in order to not be picked on about it later, as you didn't contribute to the discussion at the time with this statement. Your posts regarding his case had very little content backing them.

Furthermore, for someone who's been posting quite oftenly, your content overall is scarce. You voted Randa for... having scarce content, which is almost the same as you, the only difference between you two is that you asked the voters on Larsa why they were finding him scum (and I don't remember you engaging their reads further than this point, so what was the point of your question?), while Randa used his whisky as an excuse to avoid the discussion (which is bad, and I don't recall ever defending Randa or letting him get off the hook, as most of my posts that addressed you also addressed him in the same manner). Then you switched to me because you find my case opportunistic, from what I managed to read. This is all the content coming from you, in a nutshell.

Is it scummy to pursue a weak read when you have nothing else, around page 4? I'd agree with you if we were near midD1 and I still clinged to weak reads. But we were in page 4, if anything, it was a good enough reason to vote you and hope to get more content to solidify my read on you. You were hasty to conclude that later on I'd just leave your case be: This is just speculation of your part; not a read, nor a point. It can happen, but since it hasn't why bother with it now? You can't blame me for something which I haven't done, this is bad logic.

Also, saying that my content is limited to you and Randa is a lie. Just scroll down the pages and find my posts, you will see I addressed Larsa and Poly as well, and when Randa stated that he's confused about my reads, I informed him of my townreads on Prims and Refa and my scumreads on both of you. This is what I managed to do in 4 hours of RVS & early D1 around page 4, which is more than you did until now, even if my reads are weak.

Your reasoning behind your vote on me is flawed and I read it as an overreaction to my vote. I'm perfectly fine with my vote.

--

I'd ask Refa about his reads, but it seems he is writing a post right now. I'd better wait before confronting him.

[Refa]

Don't count on it. I'm like trying to read the thread but it's like so long and ugh. Just confront me now if you want too, from what I've read I've got like zero new scumreads and more townreads.

[Rapier]

Fine then. Why is Larsa's case still so appealing to you? Do you believe it is still valid? We're already out of RVS, if you want to keep pressing him I'll expect you to at least update your read and check his new content.

--

@Dwound

I believe your issue with me is based on diverging playstyles. If I see something strange about a player's content in so far, I find it valid to vote and push him in order to develop my reads better from his reactions. I'm even more happy with my Mancer vote because I didn't like his reaction, ie. his reasons to vote me, so yes I can see my vote on him was productive.

Why is Mancer town? You said several times that you are townreading him, but you never explicitely told us why, IIRC. Also, what is scummy within my playstyle? What is wrong with pushing other players for content when there is little?

[MancerNecro]

I was sleepy this morning... I had just woken up but was still under the effects of the sleeping pill I had prescribed for me. There's no way I could have posted at my 100% best.

I believe you did say I had slightly more content than Randa and it was better? Why then are you voting me instead of Randa?

My previous post had other contents too regarding other players that are not just you. I just find you the scummiest right now for the position you've placed yourself in (with your vote). I don't like how easy it can be for you to jump around with your vote right now depending on how the collective town sways in their discussion.

[#HBC dewound]

Man, this is not how I wanted to play this game at all...

dewound needs to vote someone and actually start scum hunting instead of defending me. I can defend myself if I feel that I need to. Instead of defending me, you should be attacking the players whose cases (on me) you think are scummy. You make me think of Bluedoom in Qprogue, when he claimed how obviously town I was and tried to ride and coast along his read on me.

This hurts coming from the guy I'm defending given I've been trying to make it clear why I think Rapier is scum, like...all last night.

Then in #121 he talks about how he will gladly defend people he thinks are town and spend paragraphs doing so, but in #123 he just says he's not scumreading Mancer. ~Semantics but not scumreading != townreading and other than just go "man this Mancer wagon sucks" and "hey Mancer made some good points" there isn't an actual reason given for why Mancer is town at any point. Reads like white-knighting to me.

It's possible this is just playstyle differences but looking at dewound posting about Rapier, the more and more he explains his read there the more and more I don't get why he isn't voting there. I mean, I don't agree with his Rapier read necessarily, but he keeps saying that he doesn't feel that this is how a townie would act, and if that's the case why isn't his vote there?

I don't believe it would change anything, as I feel I've made myself clear that I clearly don't like him and that my actions should say more than just a vote. If people are really getting on me about the fact that me not voting him changes everything then I'm not sure what to say.

Vote: Rapier? Better?

Then in #121 he talks about how he will gladly defend people he thinks are town and spend paragraphs doing so, but in #123 he just says he's not scumreading Mancer. ~Semantics but not scumreading != townreading and other than just go "man this Mancer wagon sucks" and "hey Mancer made some good points" there isn't an actual reason given for why Mancer is town at any point. Reads like white-knighting to me.

It was a general feeling that I stated in my #96, If you had a problem with it you could have directed me to that instead of making me feel like you skimmed. The eagerness I mentioned is yet again, a feeling. I'm getting honestly frustrated that I feel like I'm explaining things to the best of my ability and people are either not getting it or not reading it. I'm not sure why this always happens when I'm town but it does.

4.] Dewound's 87 catches my eye. Boy, there sure are a lot of townies in this game but I'm waiting for the scum. Calling BS on Refa's Prims read as "too soon"; his earlier pardon of Poly shows he's a meta-dependent player and this reads as forced. Prims' pointing out of Dewound's calling Mancer's and Larsa's play fine is gold. Dewoundscum likes to take advantage of various SvT and TvT arguments so he ends up in good standing with both sides. Not liking this.

Do you call BS on my initial statement of Refa itself or do you disagree that it wasn't anything to look at in the first place. I hate pulling 'i was just trying to get what I thought out there'...but that was really it.

[#HBC dewound]

Why is Mancer town? You said several times that you are townreading him, but you never explicitely told us why, IIRC. Also, what is scummy within my playstyle? What is wrong with pushing other players for content when there is little?

Again, you're another person who I feel is not reading me fully and that frustrates me. I've said many times that my Mancer read was inherently a feeling, and something I tried to summarize of what I felt initially. Do you disagree with it and why?

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

I will take a closer look when I'm not occupied at work, but please cut out all the emotional stuff. You know no one likes that shit.

[#HBC dewound]

I don't believe I've flown off the handle once at someone, stating that 'i am frustrated' is just to accentuate my point.

[Rapier]

Again, you're another person who I feel is not reading me fully and that frustrates me. I've said many times that my Mancer read was inherently a feeling, and something I tried to summarize of what I felt initially. Do you disagree with it and why?

I'm sorry, but what you felt is too subjective to be taken objectively in the game's context. You -feel- that Mancer is town, but do you have any other objective basis for it? I assume not, since you haven't shown any. So, your Mancer read seems shallow and weak.

I'm not sure if I should take your reluctancy to vote me as bad or not. In SF Mafia, we see it as uncommitment to a scumread. If you find someone scummy, why not vote them? Why wait so long?

@Mancer

Why not wait until your predictions about my actions become true, then? If they do, you'll have all the reasons to point at me and cry scum, but not earlier, as you're doing right now. Again, you were hasty.

It is true that I can hold onto my weak vote and lynch you, or switch votes when I see that your wagon isn't as promissing as before, but these are not my only choices and you can't blame me for it until your predictions become true.

I feel like I'd be wasting my time voting someone who was drunk at the time, and I can only vote one player, so you were elected instead of Randa. I thought it'd be more productive, and it was.