Yeah, you need to be a masochist to enjoy Lunatic. Lunatic+ is too painful for them

[fengaridotdll]

So... I tried to play Lunatic mode and just got 2 game overs. In the prologue. When I was a noob to the game, the first time I got a Game Over was Chapter 5-ish. This is a perfect example of how not to make a hard mode. And also, you'll need to pray to RNGod just to get through the first half of Lunatic+. And also, I would have lost poor Frederick if I was playing on Classic Mode (I do not want the game to just be me and Chrom always getting game overs against Ubermooks). Not even EXPonential Growth may provide a safe haven for grinding

[eclipse]

What is the point of this topic?

[Skynstein]

Nowadays I play games to relax, not to beat challenges, so I don't bother with "too hard" modes in games. I'm not even sure I'll buy the next FE, because there's stuff in the series that I don't like (permadeath, random growths, etc.).

On Lunatic the balance between using Freddy and your other units becomes ever so important in the early chapters, because Freddy Bear is the only one who can do enough damage to the enemies but you can't leave your other units unattended or you won't go very far in the game.

[sirmola]

What is the point of this topic?

I think the point is that hard-->lunatic is too much of a jump in difficulty (correct me if i'm wrong)

[Terrador]

...except that Lunatic can be trivialized if you know what you're doing, which you should if you're going into the mode.

No shame in not being able to beat it, but don't knock it. Taking as given that FE13 is just super unbalanced in general, Lunatic's design is actually pretty damn splendid.

[Czar_Yoshi]

This is a perfect example of how not to make a hard mode.

It's a bad idea to make modes that are supposed to be difficult difficult?

OK. But I doubt you're going to convince any game devs of that.

[Buttocksinator]

So it begins.

Inb4 legitimacy of Lunatic+ as a difficulty argument.

[Shin]

In all honesty, the jump between Hard and Lunatic is pretty massive. Lunatic's not super horrible once you get used to it, although there are a lot of things you can do to make it harder, some of which I've inflicted upon myself.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

this game mode is easy once you've actually done the harder difficulties of the others.

[Zepher-Tensho]

I also fail to get past Prologue in Lunatic mode. I pity those who challenge it on classic mode. Dear Arceus in heaven, no, just no.

[Terrador]

I also fail to get past Prologue in Lunatic mode. I pity those who challenge it on classic mode. Dear Arceus in heaven, no, just no.

Two tricks in whitetext below, in case you or others want to puzzle it out on your own.

1. Frederick should be frontmanning for the two Myrmidon kills.

2. Walking on water is very important! Chrom and Avatar can both do it, but the enemies can't.

[Zepher-Tensho]

Two tricks in whitetext below, in case you or others want to puzzle it out on your own.

I've tried that but it wasn't as easy as I thought. Practice makes perfect? XD

Edited October 19, 2014 by Zepher-Tensho

[Terrador]

Aye. As well, there are certain Avatar builds that make it much, much easier. Have you tried, for example, +SPE or +DEF? Those are the usual two. I pulled off +MAG -LCK, but I would have been destroyed had Armin been screwed in any significant way. I'd personally recommend +DEF, as it leapfrogs Chrom support more than +SPE does. Traditional Flaws have been SKL, LCK, and RES; I'd personally recommend +DEF -SKL as more or less optimal for ease-of-ingame-clear.

Also: don't use many people. You want to reduce the EXP pool as much as possible.

[Refa]

Two tricks in whitetext below, in case you or others want to puzzle it out on your own.

1. Frederick should be frontmanning for the two Myrmidon kills.

2. Walking on water is very important! Chrom and Avatar can both do it, but the enemies can't.

You really only need to let Fred kill one of the myrmidons, with the other one going to Chrom.

[Zepher-Tensho]

Aye. As well, there are certain Avatar builds that make it much, much easier. Have you tried, for example, +SPE or +DEF? Those are the usual two. I pulled off +MAG -LCK, but I would have been destroyed had Armin been screwed in any significant way. I'd personally recommend +DEF, as it leapfrogs Chrom support more than +SPE does. Traditional Flaws have been SKL, LCK, and RES; I'd personally recommend +DEF -SKL as more or less optimal for ease-of-ingame-clear.

Also: don't use many people. You want to reduce the EXP pool as much as possible.

Oh I LOVE +DEF on my avatar. I've used it the past two plays. It's almost OP. My avatar was running around as a mercenary with more def than Freddy XD

[Roflolxp54]

You DON'T need to be a masochist in order to play Lunatic+ difficulty, or Lunatic mode for that matter -- what's really required is PATIENCE. There are already quite a few strategies around that you can follow to clear the pre-DLC chapters. Of course, don't be surprised that you have to reset before even starting a battle or because a battle plan doesn't work out. And when you can, take your time -- don't rush yourself.

Lunatic Classic: +Def/-Lck male Robin; primarily used Frederick to beat through the pre-DLC chapters.

Lunatic+ Classic: +HP/-Lck male Robin; managed to get Robin with Frederick at C support to steamroll Chapter 4 after abuse of certain Renown awards.

[Zepher-Tensho]

Why negative luck? I love abusing armsthrift XD

[Roflolxp54]

In both scenarios listed in my previous post, I went with Lck flaw as that stat isn't as immediately important when compared to other stats. Also, with the Asset-Flaw combinations shown (+Def/-Lck and +HP/-Lck), both only give a -1 Luck cap modifier and a reduced Luck growth. Early on, this may make Robin a bit vulnerable to random crits, but later on -- provided that you're willing to get Limit Break, have the map for it and are willing to grind for skills and stats -- Robin can have a max Luck cap of 54, which is still more than enough for a guaranteed Armsthrift activation rate. (Any other Lck flaw combinations can have Robin's max Luck cap from as low as 52 to as high as 54.)

[Shadow Mir]

My problem with Lunatic+ is that, to make an analogy to another FE game, playing it is akin to playing Battle Before Dawn on HHM multiple times over. And I'm sure no one here who's beaten HHM actually liked that chapter. Which makes me wonder how people can actually tolerate Lunatic+.

In both scenarios listed in my previous post, I went with Lck flaw as that stat isn't as immediately important when compared to other stats. Also, with the Asset-Flaw combinations shown (+Def/-Lck and +HP/-Lck), both only give a -1 Luck cap modifier and a reduced Luck growth. Early on, this may make Robin a bit vulnerable to random crits, but later on -- provided that you're willing to get Limit Break, have the map for it and are willing to grind for skills and stats -- Robin can have a max Luck cap of 54, which is still more than enough for a guaranteed Armsthrift activation rate. (Any other Lck flaw combinations can have Robin's max Luck cap from as low as 52 to as high as 54.)

I honestly think a Luck flaw on Lunatic(+) is just asking for trouble. Starting out with only 2 luck down from 4 is NOT a good thing when barbarians can have Gamble, among other enemies having methods of having crit on you.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Why negative luck? I love abusing armsthrift XD

Because it's one of the least harmful flaws earlygame, and if you can't get past the earlygame, then you can't abuse AT.

My problem with Lunatic+ is that, to make an analogy to another FE game, playing it is akin to playing Battle Before Dawn on HHM multiple times over. And I'm sure no one here who's beaten HHM actually liked that chapter. Which makes me wonder how people can actually tolerate Lunatic+.

I honestly think a Luck flaw on Lunatic(+) is just asking for trouble. Starting out with only 2 luck down from 4 is NOT a good thing when barbarians can have Gamble, among other enemies having methods of having crit on you.

Well, think about how much time resets on BBD cost (remember, no skipping EP) and compare that to how much time it costs to reset on the select screen because an enemy has a skill you don't like. Then take into account that there's absolutely nothing you can do to increase your odds of success in BBD, but in Lunatic+ you can't die until you either make a mistake or reach EP, so there's always the possibility of finding a new strategy that increases your odds of success.

That's why I play it, though I wouldn't say tolerate so much as enjoy.

A Lck flaw is interesting in that it doesn't actually lower your odds of success all that much, but it's extremely in-your-face about deaths it may have caused. I still try to avoid using it, though.

[Irysa]

I like - skill more at least as far as ingame goes because pair up gives you +10 hit immediately, wheras you need higher level support to get the crit evade bonus. It messes procs up but I don't really care about procs.

(I really need to go back to my run...)

[Thor Odinson]

Bar me stubbornly using +Str -Res aside for my first run of every difficulty, I find -Skl in my recent run to be not a huge deal versus -Luk actually causing me a reset through no fault of my own.

Hello 1% Elthunder Mage crit. Thanks, -luk.

Otherwise I find Post-earlygame Lunatic honestly pretty chill and I don't particularly even feel all that pressured past chapter 6, and without any grindng. I can honestly pull off my usual strategy of GO UP AND WRECK FACE as long as I check enemy ranges and make sure I don't overdo it and I don't even have to think that hard. L+ had more thinking, but really, L+ is the hardest mode of a strategy game it better damn have more thinking or where's the challenge?

[Shadow Mir]

Well, think about how much time resets on BBD cost (remember, no skipping EP) and compare that to how much time it costs to reset on the select screen because an enemy has a skill you don't like. Then take into account that there's absolutely nothing you can do to increase your odds of success in BBD, but in Lunatic+ you can't die until you either make a mistake or reach EP, so there's always the possibility of finding a new strategy that increases your odds of success.

That's why I play it, though I wouldn't say tolerate so much as enjoy.

A Lck flaw is interesting in that it doesn't actually lower your odds of success all that much, but it's extremely in-your-face about deaths it may have caused. I still try to avoid using it, though.

I agree with a lot of your points. Though imho, it just feels like illegitimate difficulty when the entire game becomes a luck-based mission - and this is coming from someone who doesn't mind playing harder modes in some games.

[Terrador]

I agree with a lot of your points. Though imho, it just feels like illegitimate difficulty when the entire game becomes a luck-based mission - and this is coming from someone who doesn't mind playing harder modes in some games.

Lunatic+ can feel that way sometimes, but in reality there are very few scenarios a well-built, non-grinded team can't escape reliably. Heck, even C2 has a very reliable clear!

Now, I personally think Lunatic+ would've been better done by having, say, Hawkeye and one skill specific to each class (Warriors and bowclasses getting Counter, Paladins getting Aegis, Thwomps getting Pavise, you catch my drift), to make things a bit more consistent and to reduce the degree to which Counter is a load of baloney, but that doesn't mean Lunatic+ as it is is bad. L+ is possible and seriously challenging, but I think L was generally a better-designed mode.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Now, I personally think Lunatic+ would've been better done by having, say, Hawkeye and one skill specific to each class (Warriors and bowclasses getting Counter, Paladins getting Aegis, Thwomps getting Pavise, you catch my drift), to make things a bit more consistent and to reduce the degree to which Counter is a load of baloney, but that doesn't mean Lunatic+ as it is is bad. L+ is possible and seriously challenging, but I think L was generally a better-designed mode.

Then it would be possible to destroy it with strats similar to vanilla Lunatic- skill randomness is why it's so hard to make consistent, catch-all strats, and if you take that away then break it once and you've broken it forever.

Now, maybe you could alter the rate at which the skills are introduced (1 of Luna+/Vantage+/Pass/Hawkeye until Cht.3, 1 of anything until Cht.6, 2 of anything from then on), or switch enemies down to Hard stats- those would keep the adaptation/strat-wrecking aspect while making earlygame more palatable and putting more options on the table while lowering the overall difficulty a bit. Personally I'd be more interested in the first option (no impact on postgame skirmishes), but the second could be interesting as a separate mode from Lunatic+.