Just call me AL Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 (edited) What's kinda bugged me recently is that the games never mention exactly how a Manakete is able to become a Shadow Dragon, or whether it's a transformation that's exclusive to the strongest of Earth Dragons or not. I mean, you got guys like Medeus and (later) Loptyr. Both of whom are Earth Dragons, and both are (or at least Medeus is) capable of assuming the form of a Shadow Dragon. So far the transformation seems exclusive to Earth Dragons, with the Shadow Dragon transformation itself seeming like a "super form" of sorts. (That is the best way I can describe it, to be honest.) Then comes Idun, a Divine Dragon, who is forced to assume a form that is arguably noticeably similar to Shadow Dragon. (Granted, her dragon form in Binding Blade is referred to as a DEMON Dragon, but her appearance and the fact that she has "Dark Breath" as a usable weapon, does bring the Shadow Dragon transformation to my mind at least. It might have also been on Firelizard's mind too when he translated Binding Blade, considering what name he gave her dragon form in said translation.) Then you've got Grima, who is implied in the "Artbook of God" to be a descendant of the Earth Dragons. Now I know I proposed the theory that Grima's supposed to be a mass fusion of the Earth Dragons at the Dragon's Table, but that doesn't mean I'm not confused as to why his dragon form looks like it takes Medeus's and Loptyr's Shadow Dragon forms one step further with his own Fell Dragon form. Then you've got games by Shouzou Kaga, the father of Fire Emblem. Like TearRing Saga, which while not technically Fire Emblem, does seem to suggest that the Shadow Dragon transformation is something ALL dragons can achieve. Earth Dragons, Divine Dragons, maybe even Fire Dragons for all I know. (I am admittedly kinda spoiled to the fact that TearRing Saga's final boss is technically a human who managed to transform into a dragon by ingesting some dragon blood, but work with me people.) If that's true for the FE series, then it would explain the aforementioned similarities between Idun's Demon Dragon form and Medeus's and Loptyr's Shadow Dragon form. But even so, there doesn't seem to be specific instance that involves an onscreen transformation to a Shadow Dragon and a Manakete that had a completely different dragon form beforehand. And the dragon blood ingestion triggering the transformation, to me seems like a one-time thing that involved a human. Not a Manakete or a similar race. Seeing as whether dragon blood ingestion (or infusion) is the trigger behind such an event or not. But yeah. Does the fact that the circumstances behind this particular Manakete transformation hasn't been really gone into detail in the FE games bug anyone on here? Edited May 14, 2016 by Just call me AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Hardin Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Grima being a fusion of all the Earth Dragons make zero sense for a multitude of reasons, so I would just ignore that fan theory. Idenn's form is a "Mage Dragon" in Japan just like the ones in Archanea. Confusingly though the backstory of the Mage Dragons in Elibe are totally different, as the Mage Dragons on Archanea are a natural Dragon tribe with many members. Its probably best to just view Elibe's Mage(or demon dragons) as they're own unique thing? The Shadow Dragon in Tearring Saga looks identical to the Divine Dragon the human derived his powers from both in gameplay, and in the story(as he even mistook it for his god). Its no explained whether he instantly transformed into a Shadow Dragon upon drinking blood, or became one later. My personal guess is Shadow Dragon is a dangerous form all Dragonkin can take a risky chance to metamorphize into. There might be a different between Shadow Dragons originating from different Dragon tribes, as in addition to Tear Ring Saga, Gotoh refers to Medeus in Book 2 as a ''Dark Earth Dragon'' in the old Fantranslation. They are the most powerful type of Dragon in every gameplay appearance, and are possibly more powerful then Divine Dragons(its never delved into). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 What I noticed that technically all the Shadow Dragons are dead Loptyr? Kinda dead Medeus? Definitely dead "THEY'RE ALL DEAD!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Party Moth Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 It's symbolic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 (edited) What I'm interested in is why Medeus is referred to as a 'Shadow Dragon' long before he becomes one. There are NO actual Shadow Dragons in Shadow Dragon. Edited December 12, 2014 by Ranger Jack Walker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Party Moth Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 What I'm interested in is why Medeus is referred to as a 'Shadow Dragon' long before he becomes one. There are NO actual Shadow Dragons in Shadow Dragon. Metaphorically, Medeus is one in Shadow Dragon, but yeah, he's not physically one until Mystery of the Emblem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Book of Ereshkigal Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 (edited) What I'm interested in is why Medeus is referred to as a 'Shadow Dragon' long before he becomes one. There are NO actual Shadow Dragons in Shadow Dragon. For some reason I always though Medeus became a shadow dragon in the past, but his return was not complete in, uh, Shadow Dragon. There's a picture of Anri fighting Medeus looking like this from FE11: That looks more like his FE12 appearance than his FE11 earth dragon appearance, which also has CG art in FE11. Edited December 12, 2014 by L95 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Is Loptyr referred to as a Shadow Dragon? I know he kind of appear all shadowy at the end of Holy War but that's not exactly Loptyr himself. It's the incarnation of him passed on through his blood when Galle first bonded with him. That form could easily look all dark and evil since the Lopt Empire has been using dark magic since its inception (and Galle could have been using Dark Magic before even meeting Loptyr). Loptyr easily could have looked like a regular old earth dragon when Galle first met him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Book of Ereshkigal Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 (and Galle could have been using Dark Magic before even meeting Loptyr). I'm pretty sure that's a no, if I remember correctly, dark magic wasn't really a thing in humans until Lopt gave it to his cult. Though I could be misremembering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I'm pretty sure that's a no, if I remember correctly, dark magic wasn't really a thing in humans until Lopt gave it to his cult. Though I could be misremembering. Well Imhullu at the least exists in the same verse and has the same corrupting properties of Jugdral Dark Magic. Granted Archania is meant to take place a few thousand years later but it at least shows that not all dark magic originated from Loptyr. Gaiden also has Black Magic that probably has some dark-like spells, can't be sure, I haven't played it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just call me AL Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 (edited) On 12/12/2014 at 1:25 AM, Ranger Jack Walker said: What I'm interested in is why Medeus is referred to as a 'Shadow Dragon' long before he becomes one. There are NO actual Shadow Dragons in Shadow Dragon. On 12/12/2014 at 11:13 AM, L95 said: For some reason I always though Medeus became a shadow dragon in the past, but his return was not complete in, uh, Shadow Dragon. There's a picture of Anri fighting Medeus looking like this from FE11: That looks more like his FE12 appearance than his FE11 earth dragon appearance, which also has CG art in FE11. Pretty much this. I always thought that Medeus was often referred to as THE Shadow Dragon partly because he was able to become one when he fought Anri. When you fight him in FEs 1, 3pt1, and 11, I remember it being pretty much stated that he hasn't recovered his full strength due to having been just resurrected. I imagine that he was, however, able to do so in FEs 3pt2 and 12. On 12/12/2014 at 0:07 PM, Jotari said: Is Loptyr referred to as a Shadow Dragon? I know he kind of appear all shadowy at the end of Holy War but that's not exactly Loptyr himself. It's the incarnation of him passed on through his blood when Galle first bonded with him. That form could easily look all dark and evil since the Lopt Empire has been using dark magic since its inception (and Galle could have been using Dark Magic before even meeting Loptyr). Loptyr easily could have looked like a regular old earth dragon when Galle first met him. I'm more going off of how he looks when he's summoned by Julius in FE4 than anything, I'll admit. It seems to me that it's reasonable to assume that he was able to become one sometime before he met Galle. But the likelihood of that notion is another story. On 12/11/2014 at 7:55 PM, Emperor Hardin said: Idenn's form is a "Mage Dragon" in Japan just like the ones in Archanea. Confusingly though the backstory of the Mage Dragons in Elibe are totally different, as the Mage Dragons on Archanea are a natural Dragon tribe with many members. Its probably best to just view Elibe's Mage(or demon dragons) as they're own unique thing? Here's the thing. "Mage Dragons" and "Demon Dragons" share the same japanese name because "magic" and "demon" share the same word in Japan for some odd reason. And Idun in her dragon form during the events of Binding Blade has nothing in common with the Archanean Mage Dragons aside from their sepentine long necks. Outside of that, there's pretty much nothing that I don't think anyone can think of that connects them. Like I mentioned in my opening post, Idun during the events of Binding Blade has more in common with Medeus's Shadow Dragon form than it does with any Archanean Mage Dragons like Morzas or Xemcel. But then again, I don't know how comparable Idun's ability to create War Dragons is to Earth Dragons spawning when you fight Medeus in FE3 pt2 or FE12. On 12/11/2014 at 7:55 PM, Emperor Hardin said: My personal guess is Shadow Dragon is a dangerous form all Dragonkin can take a risky chance to metamorphize into. There might be a different between Shadow Dragons originating from different Dragon tribes, as in addition to Tear Ring Saga, Gotoh refers to Medeus in Book 2 as a ''Dark Earth Dragon'' in the old Fantranslation. Again, it would seem reasonable. I mean, again, personally I do see the Demon Dragon seen in FE6 as a bit of the Divine Dragon's take on the Shadow Dragon transformation. But that still leaves how one is created in the first place a mystery. On 12/11/2014 at 7:55 PM, Emperor Hardin said: They are the most powerful type of Dragon in every gameplay appearance, and are possibly more powerful then Divine Dragons(its never delved into). Maybe. Maybe not. Seeing as how Tiki and Fae are able to gain effective bonuses on their respective final bosses in FEs 3pt3 and 6. But then again, neither Tiki or Nagi have any effective damage on Medeus in FE12. I know it's a gameplay thing. But I'm thinking more in terms of "gameplay and story integration" here. Edited April 17, 2017 by Just call me AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Party Moth Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Well Imhullu at the least exists in the same verse and has the same corrupting properties of Jugdral Dark Magic. Granted Archania is meant to take place a few thousand years later but it at least shows that not all dark magic originated from Loptyr. Gaiden also has Black Magic that probably has some dark-like spells, can't be sure, I haven't played it. What L95 is referring to is that Jugdral didn't have any particular association with dragons and magic until Bishop Galle traveled to Archanea and met Loptyr. It's probably connected to the fact that magic in Archanea was put into a viable format by Gotoh, whereas Jugdral had no dragons present and was stuck worshiping primitive deities as a result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Hardin Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 What I noticed that technically all the Shadow Dragons are dead Loptyr? Kinda dead Medeus? Definitely dead "THEY'RE ALL DEAD!" Come to think of it, Gerxel in Tearring Saga is revived as well? Pretty much this. I always thought that Medeus was often referred to as THE Shadow Dragon partly because he was able to become one when he fought Anri. When you fight him in FEs 1, 3pt1, and 11, I remember it being pretty much stated that he hasn't recovered his full strength due to having been just resurrected. I imagine that he was, however, able to do so in FEs 3pt2 and 12. I'm more going off of how he looks when he's summoned by Julius in FE4 than anything, I'll admit. It seems to me that it's reasonable to assume that he was able to become one sometime before he met Galle. But the likelihood of that notion is another story. Here's the thing. "Mage Dragons" and "Demon Dragons" share the same japanese name because "magic" and "demon" share the same word in Japan for some odd reason. And Idun in her dragon form during the events of Binding Blade has nothing in common with the Archanean Mage Dragons aside from their sepentine long necks. Outside of that, there's pretty much nothing that I don't think anyone can think of that connects them. Like I mentioned in my opening post, Idun during the events of Binding Blade has more in common with Medeus's Shadow Dragon form than it does with any Archanean Mage Dragons like Morzas or Xemcel. But then again, I don't know how comparable Idun's ability to create War Dragons is to Earth Dragons spawning when you fight Medeus in FE3 pt2 or FE12. Again, it would seem reasonable. I mean, again, personally I do see the Demon Dragon seen in FE6 as a bit of the Divine Dragon's take on the Shadow Dragon transformation. But that still leaves how one is created in the first place a mystery. Maybe. Maybe not. Seeing as how Tiki and Fae are able to gain effective bonuses on their respective final bosses in FEs 3pt3 and 6. But then again, neither Tiki or Nagi have any effective damage on MEdeus in FE12. I know it's a gameplay thing. But I'm thinking more in terms of "gameplay and story integration" here. Yeah, the English Localization in Blazing Sword translated Idenn's title differently, but its the same name as the Dragon type from Archanea despite only a few vague similarities between the two. There are similarities between Idenn's class and the Shadow Dragon Class, mainly the use of Dark breath. Medeus doesn't create the Earth Dragons in Book 2, rather they emerge from the weakening seal on the Dragon's table. In the original book 2, Shadow Dragons and Divine Dragons are about in equal in gameplay as both their skills nullify the other. Thinking about it, there are no degenerated Shadow Dragons, possibly due to their rarity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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