Shadow Mir Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Or replace it with "Great Knight". Love the class, despise the design My favorite class design in Awakening is the Swordmaster At least it wasn't blatant eye cancer, which was more than can be said for Sacred Stones' Great Knight design... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singularity Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) about male Dark Mages, they're also terribad, but at least there's Henry. everyone looks bad on Sorcs. and I'm aware about the rest of the class with bad designs(Zerkers, GKs, Generals), but they don't bug me as much as Sorcs(which is prolly the opposite of other people's opinion in here). Edited January 11, 2015 by singularity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor15243 Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 At least it wasn't blatant eye cancer, which was more than can be said for Sacred Stones' Great Knight design... You're joking, right? Sacred Stones' Great Knight design was awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 You're joking, right? Sacred Stones' Great Knight design was awesome! Why would you think I'm joking...? Of course I ain't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorena Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 useful means contributing to making a chapter easier, and training donnel requires softening tons of enemies just so he can finish off, and he soaks a lot of exp. even if you don't care at all about turns, you'll have a hard time training donnel, as he gets 40 exp from each generic kill and thus needs about 50 (?) kills spoonfed to get past bronze weapons. flavia and basilio come with solid bases and access to useful weapons at least, and how well they fare in comparison doesn't count since having an additional hammer or silver bow user or a quick sword!hero is nice anyways, even if only as a filler. it's better than bronze-lock. Well, that is sort of the problem with trying to say what is the worst unit. There is little criteria put forth to provide a good frame work to deciding the worst unit. The best anyone can really do is decide upon something and go from there. Overall, my idea of the worst unit is the worst unit among all the titles of normal, hard, lunatic, lunatic+. What is the worst unit? The unit that contributes very little or makes few significant contributions. However, what does one classify as a contribution. In LTC, it is pretty clear in that anything that can be done to save turns or do things to help save turns later. Such as getting Garret in FE6 takes turns since you have to wait for him to spawn. In the case of worst unit, a contribution is much more broad in my opinion. It is really anything to helping to clear the game at this point. Which can be from chipping enemies down, collecting items, killing things, recruiting, etc. In that regard, chapter availability generally would show how useful a character ends up being. Avatar is good enough to find contributions the entire game while Morgan only comes at the half way mark. As far as I know Morgan is not doing anything significant to overshadow the other half of the game avatar was around. Therefore, Avatar > Morgan. In a similar vein, this is why I find it easier to say Flavia as probably worst character in the game. Donnel has several chapters to contribute to the game. He does have an initial investment, but afterwards he can be left on his own. Unfortunately, it is rather pointless without back-up and I probably should fine a run done by the guy with the dog avatar around these awakening boards. But, someone looked into using Donnel in a LTC situation on either lunatic or hard mode and found him rather lacking in that quick environment. In a slower pace, it might have merit. The crux of the argument I am using is "Is the initial investment in Donnel so great that is overshadows the contributions he can be making once he has gotten started?" At the time being, I believe so from things I did earlier with Donnel. Flavia on the other hand has solid bases, weapon selection, etc. However, does this completely excuse her from being gone for 23 chapters in the entire game? My mistake. 23 chapters along with whatever paralogues you decided to go on for children or getting Tiki and such before finally getting Flavia. In a LTC, yes, I would say Flavia > Donnel. In general, not for me. This sounds not unlike a certain argument I read for PoR Rolf not being the worst character in the game... and I'm sure it's every bit as wrong now as it was then. I am not certain what about this you are referring too, but the main idea I suppose is chapter availability and weighting a characters initial investment versus turn out by the end of the game. If you look at several LTC discussions this is actually quite a common point of discussion and argument to use. Both for and against a unit. I would not all it say it is wrong unless it is argued for in the incorrect way. In FE6 for example, Allen and Lance are two character with very good availability and end up being very good units because of it since they grow into it. At the same time, a unit like Percieval and Niime I would say are better characters for LTC than Wendy or Barth. Despite Wendy/Barth having more than double the chapters Niime has she is certainly better than both Wendy and Barth since they cost more than they return. In both cases, using the idea of chapter availability is not an incorrect argument to try using. However, this thread I suspect was mainly for inputs and probably more for fun of hearing quick ideas rather than a full fledged inquiry into who is the worst unit. In which case, I should probably leave the conversation as is for the time being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ownagepuffs Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Well she's the only one who needs the avatar to get both galeforce and a proc. Her hard support stats are pretty meh (+1 Str, +1 Mag, -1 Skl, wasting most of her fantastic manakete mod total on Def and Res) and she has no access to the best physical hard support classes and needs Henry to be a good hard magic support class with mods that suit a magical husband. Nah's an in game manakete with an easy to cheese paralogue which makes her better than like every other kid bar Morgan/Lucina.That's a shit ton more than any other kid unit can claim for a long, long time. Judging kids by their post game merits only is... eh. Speaking of which, worst character design goes to Nowi because why the hell does she look like playing dress up gone wrong. Zerker's ain't so bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fengaridotdll Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 At least it wasn't blatant eye cancer, which was more than can be said for Sacred Stones' Great Knight design... I like the Sacred Stones Great Knight design It's the female version in Awakening that's the eye cancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ownagepuffs Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I like the Sacred Stones Great Knight design It's the female version in Awakening that's the eye cancer Yeah I like the FE8 GK as well. MKS always hates the things that I love :( Almost all Awakening mounted females look terrible. Exceptions being Troubadours, Valks, Bow Knights (F), Dark Flier, and Falcon Knight; all of which look amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fengaridotdll Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Yeah I like the FE8 GK as well. MKS always hates the things that I love :( Almost all Awakening mounted females look terrible. Exceptions being Troubadours, Valks, Bow Knights (F), Dark Flier, and Falcon Knight; all of which look amazing. Yeah. I can't stand the whole no pants thing with mounted females Riding on a wyvern without any pants on has got to be unbearable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I like the Sacred Stones Great Knight design It's the female version in Awakening that's the eye cancer Tch. Well, whatever - it generally ain't like I stay in Great Knight for very long after getting Luna. At least Awakening actually gave me a good reason to go there, which I can't say of Sacred Stones.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fengaridotdll Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 My Awakening character is only a GK because Swords are my favorite weapon and they are the sword wielders with the highest strength Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazydoggamer Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 If we're talking in game I'd say Brady or Inigo. They both join way too late, are completely redundant, and have poor stats thanks to their moms. Although Donnel is pretty bad at least he joins early enough that you can train him if you want to and he passes down aptitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ownagepuffs Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Yeah. I can't stand the whole no pants thing with mounted females Riding on a wyvern without any pants on has got to be unbearable They get Leotards upon promoting to Wyvern Lord too goddammit FE13. But Gerome looks fucking awesome I gotta give him that. He's like the only guy that doesn't make me raise an eyebrow as a Wyvern Lord. My favorite part about Valkyries is the corset because corsets are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 If we're talking in game I'd say Brady or Inigo. They both join way too late, are completely redundant, and have poor stats thanks to their moms. Although Donnel is pretty bad at least he joins early enough that you can train him if you want to and he passes down aptitude. Well, that is sort of the problem with trying to say what is the worst unit. There is little criteria put forth to provide a good frame work to deciding the worst unit. The best anyone can really do is decide upon something and go from there. Overall, my idea of the worst unit is the worst unit among all the titles of normal, hard, lunatic, lunatic+. What is the worst unit? The unit that contributes very little or makes few significant contributions. However, what does one classify as a contribution. In LTC, it is pretty clear in that anything that can be done to save turns or do things to help save turns later. Such as getting Garret in FE6 takes turns since you have to wait for him to spawn. In the case of worst unit, a contribution is much more broad in my opinion. It is really anything to helping to clear the game at this point. Which can be from chipping enemies down, collecting items, killing things, recruiting, etc. In that regard, chapter availability generally would show how useful a character ends up being. Avatar is good enough to find contributions the entire game while Morgan only comes at the half way mark. As far as I know Morgan is not doing anything significant to overshadow the other half of the game avatar was around. Therefore, Avatar > Morgan. In a similar vein, this is why I find it easier to say Flavia as probably worst character in the game. Donnel has several chapters to contribute to the game. He does have an initial investment, but afterwards he can be left on his own. Unfortunately, it is rather pointless without back-up and I probably should fine a run done by the guy with the dog avatar around these awakening boards. But, someone looked into using Donnel in a LTC situation on either lunatic or hard mode and found him rather lacking in that quick environment. In a slower pace, it might have merit. The crux of the argument I am using is "Is the initial investment in Donnel so great that is overshadows the contributions he can be making once he has gotten started?" At the time being, I believe so from things I did earlier with Donnel. Flavia on the other hand has solid bases, weapon selection, etc. However, does this completely excuse her from being gone for 23 chapters in the entire game? My mistake. 23 chapters along with whatever paralogues you decided to go on for children or getting Tiki and such before finally getting Flavia. In a LTC, yes, I would say Flavia > Donnel. In general, not for me. I am not certain what about this you are referring too, but the main idea I suppose is chapter availability and weighting a characters initial investment versus turn out by the end of the game. If you look at several LTC discussions this is actually quite a common point of discussion and argument to use. Both for and against a unit. I would not all it say it is wrong unless it is argued for in the incorrect way. In FE6 for example, Allen and Lance are two character with very good availability and end up being very good units because of it since they grow into it. At the same time, a unit like Percieval and Niime I would say are better characters for LTC than Wendy or Barth. Despite Wendy/Barth having more than double the chapters Niime has she is certainly better than both Wendy and Barth since they cost more than they return. In both cases, using the idea of chapter availability is not an incorrect argument to try using. However, this thread I suspect was mainly for inputs and probably more for fun of hearing quick ideas rather than a full fledged inquiry into who is the worst unit. In which case, I should probably leave the conversation as is for the time being. Well, from where I'm standing, unless you're grinding, catching Donnel up is far from an easy task, especially given that most of the enemies in the first arc of the game are axers. @Vorena: Yes, I was referencing availability. I mean, sure, Donnel joins early enough that you MIGHT be able to get him to contribute, but that ain't easy given the aforementioned problem of having mostly axe users as enemies in the first part of the game, the bronze lock that he has to fight his way out of TWICE, and (assuming you have him go Mercenary) being easy prey for the hordes of lance users Valm has, to say nothing of needing 9 levels before he can reclass (add another 5 if you want to go out of your way for Underdog). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fengaridotdll Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Catching Donnel up with the rest of the group is much easier if you have the EXPonential Growth DLC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ownagepuffs Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Maaaan we can't use grinding as a defense for Donny :P Dontcha' know? Everyone is good with grinding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fengaridotdll Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Except Miriel. Her defense remains awful for all eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentacotus Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Maaaan we can't use grinding as a defense for Donny :P Dontcha' know? Everyone is good with grinding. But Donnel is love Donnel is life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fengaridotdll Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 But Donnel is love Donnel is life. That's actually very terrifying o.o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Geek Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 As much as I love The Don, I'd have to agree that he's probably the worst unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ownagepuffs Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 But Donnel is love Donnel is life. Holy shit does that log have like 30 Mt or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fengaridotdll Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Holy shit does that log have like 30 Mt or something? Forged Log on Donnel=Epicness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XeKr Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I'll actually defend Donnel slightly here. Unlike most trainee/Ests, the results are genuinely impressive, in a sense, after getting over the initial hump. Given a middling amount of investment, Donnel has some of the highest relative stats (even Bronze doesn't amtter so much, plus arms scrolls) and the availability to use it. That said, he's definitely the worst character (even comes in a paralogue, so no excuse about "free" contributions. >_>) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roflolxp54 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Donnel without question, especially since I had to babysit him a lot in his joining paralogue in both Lunatic and Lunatic+ difficulties, though the babysitting is mostly for the laughs and make Donnel appear broken when he is just simply overcentralizing in teambuilding early on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 But what about Henry? Does that 10 extra hit from Hit+20 over Anathema make that much of a difference? No. But it is a difference in Yarne/Laurent's favor, and that's all I need to call him the worst. Actually, it will make quite a big difference if paired with Sniper Lucina fighting Apo's Throne enemies. Hit is very noticeable there. Wait, what? I would've guessed you'd say Nah. Nah has a niche that she fits into very well (female hard support). She has strong options as a Valkyrie from Henry and a Hero from Vaike and to a lesser extent Gregor, and can support pretty much any Galeboy very well. Noire can either go GF/proc and wind up with her mods outshadowed by every single other female lead thanks to Tharja's mods not matching up with her class set, or try to do the same as Nah and be a support- though if she does the latter she winds up getting outclassed due to the lack of innate Tomefaire. She still has workable sets- Gregor is probably her best bet- but she doesn't fit the role as fluidly as Nah. Nah also has ingame utility due to a very fast Nowi x Gregor support and cheesable Paralogue granting early Second Seals should Severa/Inigo either not be in use or prove too difficult to recruit immediately after Cht.13 Unfortunately, it is rather pointless without back-up and I probably should fine a run done by the guy with the dog avatar around these awakening boards. Here you go: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=40300 He thinks Donnel's not worth the investment, by the way. So here's a method I came up with that might be useful for trying to quantify how "good" a unit is: on Hard/Cla, from their recruitment, the goal is to deploy only them and Chrom, with Chrom unequipped and at no support ranks (I don't care what his stats/class are) and have them use the auto-battle AI to clear the game. From there, total up the number of turns when you control the unit themself (excluding moving Chrom behind them), the turn counts for all chapters in which units other than the trainee and Chrom are deployed (including the recruitment chapter, unless Chrom soloed it up to recruitment) repeat several times for consistency and that's the unit's score. Lower is obviously better. Basically it's a way of measuring how much effort it takes to get a real juggernaut going. Obviously there are several big flaws (no weight is given to utility/parentage/supports, for one), but it might be an interesting baseline. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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