West vs East themes

[kdports]

Fire Emblem has actually been quite European inspired before Awakening, and it still showed in Awakening. Flails I dno if we need another subset, we need bows to be good again like FE6 and 12 first.

You forgot FE2.

[IGdood]

Speaking of cool swords, I wouldn't mind seeing falcatas, kopis, or other inward-curving swords that look menacing.

[ClassyWolf]

Speaking of cool swords, I wouldn't mind seeing falcatas, kopis, or other inward-curving swords that look menacing.

Oh yes, another sword that would be fun to see in some iteration would be the Khopesh, and even though it has an outward curve.

[Jedi]

You forgot FE2.

My bad haha, that 1-5 range is so good.

[IGdood]

This might be controversial, but the East did get gunpowder weaponry and firearms much earlier than the West did.

Ballisticians can be redesigned to be Rocketeers. This would probably be more fitting of the FE theme. After all, in Shadow Dragon Hoistflamme, Pachyderm kinda already had an explosive effect.

The other one would be to implement a very, very, very early firearm weapon. Song Dynasty China had what amounted to a bamboo tube filled with gunpowder and loaded with a lead pellet. In FE terms the weapon would have an extremely limited number of uses, be unable to double since it was so primitive, be horribly inaccurate, but pack a very nasty punch. Perhaps make it a one-use item like the Mine that anyone can use, or perhaps make it exclusive to foot archers/snipers.

Early game version

Late game version

[Aiddon]

This might be controversial, but the East did get gunpowder weaponry and firearms much earlier than the West did.

Ballisticians can be redesigned to be Rocketeers. This would probably be more fitting of the FE theme. After all, in Shadow Dragon Hoistflamme, Pachyderm kinda already had an explosive effect.

The other one would be to implement a very, very, very early firearm weapon. Song Dynasty China had what amounted to a bamboo tube filled with gunpowder and loaded with a lead pellet. In FE terms the weapon would have an extremely limited number of uses, be unable to double since it was so primitive, be horribly inaccurate, but pack a very nasty punch. Perhaps make it a one-use item like the Mine that anyone can use, or perhaps make it exclusive to foot archers/snipers.

Early game version

Late game version

Although, for Japan, they were introduced to firearms by Portugal. Tanegashima rifles really changed how warfare went because despite all their disadvantages (and they had a LOT), they had one GIGANTIC advantage: easy for the layman to use thus making it quick to learn unlike archery. It's why Nobunaga was able to beat the hell out of his competition. Primitive firearms would shake up the dynamics, though they would probably be widely inaccurate with short range.

[Jedi]

Yeah Nobunagas trade for guns, kinda secured his dominance. The Takeda didn't see it coming..

[Mirron]

I'm hoping that you get to choose a side. Though I expect that it'll be more like the Eirika/Ephraim route difference (aka not really drastically different) and that the end would result in you teaming up to fight some sort of third (or fourth maybe) side who is behind it all. Still, having the different routes would at least give me a reason to go through it a second time. I just hope it limits your character options a little bit.

[hammerene]

See, this is the other thing that I'm concerned about: that the "East" side is just going to be Japan. What about China or Nepal?

I'm a little disappointed that the Eastern faction of this game is mostly Japanese-influenced. Not gonna lie, I'm pretty tired of seeing Japanese influences in games when there is an Eastern theme going on for a faction. I always wished there were more Chinese, Korean, Mongolian, or Middle Eastern themed countries/tribes. However, I guess Sacae from FE7 is Mongolianish due to the huts and nomadic lifestyle... and not to consider that Nintendo is a Japanese-based company.

Awakening tried to do something like that with talk of the "purges" and stuff, but it never really got fleshed out, which was a pain. Gangrel ended up just being a one dimensional crazy person.

To be honest, I've always been curious as to what kind of crimes Chrom's father did towards Plegia. There was never much info except "Oh hey Chrom your father was a real big asshole back in the day."

I don't know about anyone else but I'm just really glad that we don't have toilet bowl knights anymore.

[IGdood]

Yeah Nobunagas trade for guns, kinda secured his dominance. The Takeda didn't see it coming..

One does not simply charge cavalry into a prepared gun position...

I'm hoping that you get to choose a side. Though I expect that it'll be more like the Eirika/Ephraim route difference (aka not really drastically different) and that the end would result in you teaming up to fight some sort of third (or fourth maybe) side who is behind it all. Still, having the different routes would at least give me a reason to go through it a second time. I just hope it limits your character options a little bit.

And add a "True" route in the end with all the options. That would be a nice touch.

I'm a little disappointed that the Eastern faction of this game is mostly Japanese-influenced. Not gonna lie, I'm pretty tired of seeing Japanese influences in games when there is an Eastern theme going on for a faction. I always wished there were more Chinese, Korean, Mongolian, or Middle Eastern themed countries/tribes.

This.

I understand that there is a strong mythos behind the samurai and the ninja, but the Chinese and Koreans (and other Asian countries too, like Siam/Thailand and Vietnam) have their own quirks too that deserve to be looked at.

In video games if China does show up they tend to be classed as the spammer faction with hordes of weak yet cheap units. In the era of FE they should be the ones with high tech gunpowder (Ballisticians/Rocketeers anyone?) and be well-balanced.

If Korea does show up, they usually are shown as being identical to the Chinese or get steamrolled by the Japanese in an Imjin War scenario. Of all the East Asians, they were reputed to have the best archers. Not to mention, they've got some really nice hats.

A Southeast Asian faction should show up one of these days. War elephants would be great....and plus they've got interesting armor on.

[Aiddon]

I'm a little disappointed that the Eastern faction of this game is mostly Japanese-influenced. Not gonna lie, I'm pretty tired of seeing Japanese influences in games when there is an Eastern theme going on for a faction. I always wished there were more Chinese, Korean, Mongolian, or Middle Eastern themed countries/tribes. However, I guess Sacae from FE7 is Mongolianish due to the huts and nomadic lifestyle... and not to consider that Nintendo is a Japanese-based company.

That and it's just easier to focus on ONE Eastern culture than trying to lump them all together. Or make things even more of a mess by trying to put multiple ones in. It's a practicality thing.

[IGdood]

That and it's just easier to focus on ONE Eastern culture than trying to lump them all together. Or make things even more of a mess by trying to put multiple ones in. It's a practicality thing.

True, though they can probably do something like an Eastern Coalition where a certain unit of theirs comes from a corresponding culture (Chinese contribute Halberdiers/Soldiers/Knights, Japanese contribute Myrmidons/Swordmasters, Koreans contribute Archers/Snipers, Mongols/Jurchens contribute Nomads/"Bow Knights", etc)

Of course that might end up offending a ton of people given the situation in current day Far East.

[hammerene]

I understand that there is a strong mythos behind the samurai and the ninja, but the Chinese and Koreans (and other Asian countries too, like Siam/Thailand and Vietnam) have their own quirks too that deserve to be looked at.

In video games if China does show up they tend to be classed as the spammer faction with hordes of weak yet cheap units. In the era of FE they should be the ones with high tech gunpowder (Ballisticians/Rocketeers anyone?) and be well-balanced.

If Korea does show up, they usually are shown as being identical to the Chinese or get steamrolled by the Japanese in an Imjin War scenario. Of all the East Asians, they were reputed to have the best archers. Not to mention, they've got some really nice hats.

THIS.

But not gonna lie, firearms in FE would be kinda awkward. FE has always run on the weaponry of lances, axes, swords, bows, and magic, with the occasional manakete/transforming class here and there. When I ask someone about what they think when they hear "medieval times," I rarely meet someone who thinks of "firearms" or "cannons."

Such a stark change in weaponry would be a rather big surprise, but I could see firearms being an enemy's hidden card and used against the player near the final battle or something. Instead of firearms, I think a ballista class would suit better.

And agh, the Korean reflex bow. I doubt we will see it anytime soon in FE. ;____;

That and it's just easier to focus on ONE Eastern culture than trying to lump them all together. Or make things even more of a mess by trying to put multiple ones in. It's a practicality thing.

You're right on the practicality part but does that ONE Eastern culture have to be Japanese?

I don't know about anyone else, but I never really found any video games where there were other Eastern-influences besides Japanese ones, unless we're talking Age of Empires or games where the player cultivates an empire/multiple civlizations. I've never seen a case where you have only one Eastern-influenced country and the theme isn't Japanese.

[Aiddon]

True, though they can probably do something like an Eastern Coalition where a certain unit of theirs comes from a corresponding culture (Chinese contribute Halberdiers/Soldiers/Knights, Japanese contribute Myrmidons/Swordmasters, Koreans contribute Archers/Snipers, Mongols/Jurchens contribute Nomads/"Bow Knights", etc)

Of course that might end up offending a ton of people given the situation in current day Far East.

Nnnnnnnno, not happening. Even historically that didn't really happen between Mongolia, China, Korea, Japan, etc. The closest was probably the Mongolian dynasties in China, but eventually they just became Chinese culturally.

You're right on the practicality part but does that ONE Eastern culture have to be Japanese?

Uh, yes, it's a Japanese company, so that makes it even more practical (write what you know as they say). Seriously, when Sengoku Era fiction is practically genre onto itself with a ton of interesting nuance due to how the era was, I don't see how that's a problem. Especially considering how Japanese flair in fantasy fiction is fairly rare. Oh sure, you'll get the occasional token effort in games every now and again, but having them be a key player is rare.

[IGdood]

Nnnnnnnno, not happening. Even historically that didn't really happen between Mongolia, China, Korea, Japan, etc. The closest was probably the Mongolian dynasties in China, but eventually they just became Chinese culturally.

I understand where you're getting at, I was just suggesting a plausible situation where a lot of different Eastern cultures could be lumped together in a video game.

Perhaps the Roman Empire would be better at that.

Roman citizens -> Armor Knights/Legionaries

Conquered peoples -> Auxilia/Soldier/Halberdiers

Easterners -> Archers/Snipers

Gallic/Celts -> Heroes/Berserkers/Cavaliers

Parthian/Sarmatian -> Nomads

etc

Edit: Actually the Japanese are really big on the Chinese 3 Kingdoms period. Wouldn't mind seeing a non-Dynasty Warrior game in that period either.

THIS.

But not gonna lie, firearms in FE would be kinda awkward. FE has always run on the weaponry of lances, axes, swords, bows, and magic, with the occasional manakete/transforming class here and there. When I ask someone about what they think when they hear "medieval times," I rarely meet someone who thinks of "firearms" or "cannons."

Such a stark change in weaponry would be a rather big surprise, but I could see firearms being an enemy's hidden card and used against the player near the final battle or something. Instead of firearms, I think a ballista class would suit better.

And agh, the Korean reflex bow. I doubt we will see it anytime soon in FE. ;____;

You're right on the practicality part but does that ONE Eastern culture have to be Japanese?

I don't know about anyone else, but I never really found any video games where there were other Eastern-influences besides Japanese ones, unless we're talking Age of Empires or games where the player cultivates an empire/multiple civlizations. I've never seen a case where you have only one Eastern-influenced country and the theme isn't Japanese.

I understand. Just a personal dream of mine to see FE shifting a little bit forward. Not like to the point where you have firearms that look like actual guns, but very early ones that would fit into balance. But yes, a ballista class with explosions would fit better. Rockets came before actual bamboo tube guns, I believe.

Ditto on the Korean reflex bow, would be nice to see.

Edited January 20, 2015 by IGdood

[Jedi]

Ditto on the Korean reflex bow, would be nice to see.

The Gungdo would be awesome to see in an FE. It would be really good statwise for sure too.

[IGdood]

The Gungdo would be awesome to see in an FE. It would be really good statwise for sure too.

Sometimes this makes me wonder how good the different bows of the world match up.

I hear good things about the English longbow and the bows of the Steppes, but where does a Japanese yumi stand? I mean for sure they're probably better than an average shortbow...

[Surge247]

I like this. It opens the way for more cultural differences in the game like different types of weapons and armor which the series has needed for a while.\

For example different types of swords like the Gladius and spears like the pilum. Perhaps they could add in shields or even expand the weapons triangle to include weapons like flails and maces.

I would absolutely LOVE maces and flails. After someone pointed out that a character used a mace-like weapon in the trailer, I was almost bouncing off the walls. I'm not sure how they could get shields worked in, but maybe the eastern army would get a class that, instead of tanking with bulky armor, gets a large shield.

[IGdood]

I would absolutely LOVE maces and flails. After someone pointed out that a character used a mace-like weapon in the trailer, I was almost bouncing off the walls. I'm not sure how they could get shields worked in, but maybe the eastern army would get a class that, instead of tanking with bulky armor, gets a large shield.

This. Hammers are one thing, but damn maces and flails are just so much more intimidating.

Funny thing is that the Koreans were probably one of the only people to use large flails from horseback. Hope we might see some of that in this new FE.

[Fei Mao]

I understand where you're getting at, I was just suggesting a plausible situation where a lot of different Eastern cultures could be lumped together in a video game.

Perhaps the Roman Empire would be better at that.

Roman citizens -> Armor Knights/Legionaries

If they do have Legionaries I want to see an animation with a pilum toss into a charge, but that's probably asking too much.

But yes if this game is a west vs east theme I would love to see a Roman Empire influenced army also.

[Bobobarrel]

Am I missing something? I didn't see anything in the trailer that looked particularly Roman. Was it just the helmet crests? If this was really a Roman inspired faction, there shouldve been a much bigger emphasis on heavy infantry formations rather than cavalry. The Romans were not particularly known for their cavalry until much later (ie ERE/Byzantine cataphracts, etc). IMHO the "western" units look late Medieval.

If I were to guess, the inspiration would be Renaissance Europe and late Muromachi/early Sengoku Japan maybe in the 1500s? These were not fun times due to the chaos of the European Wars of Religion and Sengoku Jidai.

In any case, so long as it's a Knight vs Samurai affair, I expect the "West" to have generally tankier units with an emphasis on heavy cavalry while the "East" focuses more on the speed and skill stats (probably with myrmidons, Naginata "halberds," ninja, and "bow knights"). The trailer also suggests that the "Samurai" faction might have the monopoly on Pegasus troops while the "Knights" have dark knights.

[IGdood]

Am I missing something? I didn't see anything in the trailer that looked particularly Roman. Was it just the helmet crests? If this was really a Roman inspired faction, there shouldve been a much bigger emphasis on heavy infantry formations rather than cavalry. The Romans were not particularly known for their cavalry until much later (ie ERE/Byzantine cataphracts, etc). IMHO the "western" units look late Medieval.

I think it was the helmet crests that threw a lot of people off. Honestly they actually look Northern Italian.

[ClassyWolf]

I think it was the helmet crests that threw a lot of people off. Honestly they actually look Northern Italian.

The helmet didn't actually throw me of, the armor did, I wonder why they couldn't use something like lorica hamata or lorica segmentata for the armor, which is more recognizable and more correct, than banded armor, which has dubious historical correctness,

Edit: I say the roman armors, cause the helmet in the pic below the rider has, reminds me somewhat of a Galea, with the brush going with the head, not across it, pretty much the stereotypical roman centurion helmet, also, if they thought of going with high medieval, the armor would most likely look more like it does in the pic you posted, and not banded armor, a historically dubious roman armor.

Btw, western guys in the foreground,

Am I alone in thinking they kinda look like Spanish soldiers? probably because of the Morion style helmets, which if my memory serves me right, is often associated, something like this:

Edited January 21, 2015 by that one person

[Bobobarrel]

Am I alone in thinking they kinda look like Spanish soldiers? probably because of the Morion style helmets...

You're not alone. The "Western" faction's knights + the conquistador/tercio-esque foot soldiers is what made me suspect that they're Renaissance inspired.

[Crixler]

You're right on the practicality part but does that ONE Eastern culture have to be Japanese?

I don't know about anyone else, but I never really found any video games where there were other Eastern-influences besides Japanese ones, unless we're talking Age of Empires or games where the player cultivates an empire/multiple civlizations. I've never seen a case where you have only one Eastern-influenced country and the theme isn't Japanese.

Guild Wars Factions was a game taking place in a fictional pseudo-Asia, and was a mix of Japanese, Chinese, and Korean influences. It wasn't well received in Asia because, unlike European cultures, fusing various East Asian cultures is apparently regarded as highly unsavory, even in a purely fictional context. When the developers made Guild Wars 2, there was originally going to be an area in the game that was sort of a "China Town" type deal, that kept the same fused culture from the past game, but the publisher, a Korean company, made them remove the whole area.

Unfortunately, in order to have multiple East Asian influences, they need to be kept separate in order to avoid controversy over there.

Regarding the Roman helmets, one other distinctly Roman thing about them was the masks the Cavalry in the beginning had. I can only think of two cultures that are known to have used such masks - Japanese Samurai, and Roman cavalry. Though the Roman masks weren't quite so demonic looking.