Fire Emblem Binding Blade: Rebirth [In development]

[Lord Raven]

You're thinking of a different Raven, bud, and i don't see how my post was any more condescending than the person i was replying to

At any rate, I shall deliver, and given the fact that most if not all of these threads had 10-15+ pages, I think they were fairly visible.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=21249

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=41820

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27091

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34333

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34888

I don't need to link more do I?

[Chocolate Kitty]

dude you don't even know my thought process regarding FE6

then please enlighten the community on how off my guess was, dolan

raven lol

Edited February 6, 2015 by Skitty of Time

[Siuloir]

You're thinking of a different Raven, bud, and i don't see how my post was any more condescending than the person i was replying to

Oh right, you're the chat Raven.

I'm sorry, keeping track of insignificant people is difficult.

[dondon151]

Also it'd be pretty hilarious if you linked some of those projects, considering Skitty is behind arguably the most visible of them.

in addition to raven's 5 projects i also found

tacticianjenro's Fire Emblem 6: Easier Hack: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=40073

Armads1091's Fire Emblem 6 - The Rebalancing: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47948

[dondon151]

then please enlighten the community on how off my guess was, dolan

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=49919

have fun, try not to start shit next time okay

EDIT: whoops, this was supposed to be an edit to the above post, not a double post. sorry.

Edited February 6, 2015 by dondon151

[Dunal]

don't bother responding to dondon

the only thing he cares about how fast he can beat it; character development, growths, and designs don't mean anything to him(neither does roy's promotion because roy isn't walking 90% of the time)

It's all based on perspective. Whether there's anything to 'fix' is an arguable subject, as with anything, but for the most part I don't think FE6 lives up to its potential. And simple balance changes won't do that.

As some of you know I already made a FE6 patch a couple years back, but there was a lot to be learned from it. It solved some issues but possibly created others. Also, 'power creep' comes to mind. And it's not like any kind of number changes can make things like Armor Knights good.

For character/story telling, it doesn't need to be FE9 level but it could certainly be better. There are lot of positive changes to be made for maps (some would argue but... eh). More units/classes/weapons aren't strictly necessarily but do add more nuance into the game, assuming they're balanced properly.

It's not like FE6 is a bad game or anything, it's just a game I feel could be more. Whether I will actually execute that is up to others.

[Chocolate Kitty]

missing the part in that topic where I was wrong, all I see is ways to beat the game the fastest way possible

the only thing he cares about how fast he can beat it;

but i'm not in the mood to play this little game with you, so i'm moving on

lol the only ones starting shit were you and raven but ok

Edited February 6, 2015 by Skitty of Time

[Siuloir]

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=49919

have fun, try not to start shit next time okay

From an outsider's perspective -

Not sure if you're bragging about your LTC clear, or telling him to watch the entirety of your run to get your thoughts on FE6.

The first seems irrelevant (especially since it is TAS and you're looking at the RNG), the latter seems exceedingly time consuming.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Siuloir

[Lord Raven]

If you guys followed, they talk quite a bit about a character's growths (how a character plays in a run with growths, how a character plays in slower playthroughs, etc), character and plot developments (basically summarizing the plot of a chapter), and they touch upon character designs. I don't think anyone expects you to watch it start to finish (though it gets really fun to watch after like 3-4 chapters) but it definitely goes to show that the supposed "LTC crowd" is not as one dimensional as you guys like to peg us/them/etc as.

Again, needlessly starting shit and assuming the worst of a group of people that have proven that they are a far, far more nuanced community than you care to think about. On top of that, you're basically spreading false stuff to people who may or may not know him, which is basically almost slander (but you didn't outright insult him), and you're taking away anything productive that can come out of something that is a legitimate question. That is basically "starting shit." Neither of us insulted anyone here nor insinuated anything about anyone else.

Also it's not a TAS man, come on.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Lord Raven

[dondon151]

From an outsider's perspective -

Not sure if you're bragging about your LTC clear, or telling him to watch the entirety of your run to get your thoughts on FE6.

The first seems irrelevant, the latter seems exceedingly time consuming.

he asked me to enlighten the community about my thoughts on FE6, and he got what he asked for. it's his problem if he still continues to start shit.

missing the part in that topic where I was wrong, all I see is ways to beat the game the fastest way possible

i actually expected you to say this because clearly you didn't watch a single video; mekkah and i actually talk about character development and chapter design a fair bit in a video series dedicated to LTCing FE6. you wanted to know my thoughts on the game; now that my thoughts are available, doesn't it behoove you to listen to them? or did you not intend to pay attention to a serious answer to your question in the first place?

Edited February 6, 2015 by dondon151

[Dunal]

the growths in this game are awful

Depends what you mean by that because total growth %s are going down a bit overall. There's a lot of benefits to it, honestly (It means you can make pre-promotes weaker overall but not make them bad, makes underleveled units less worse, makes overleveled less strong etc... I've actually grown to really dislike high growth amounts). Ultimately it means base stats can be the focal balance point because let's face it, bases are what make or break certain units and pumping up growths to silly levels doesn't solve anything unless you make enemies subsequently silly.

Marcus for example has like -2 STR/DEF in this hack but since growths are lower he doesn't completely suck later on, while being much better for the game early on.

If you mean balance then well, the intention is to make to make it fairer on certain units of course. Sophia won't have stupid growths but they'll be better than the average unit.

Edited February 6, 2015 by DLuna

[Siuloir]

he asked me to enlighten the community about my thoughts on FE6, and he got what he asked for. it's his problem if he still continues to start shit.

Yeah, you can't just link 20+ chapters worth of video and tell people that's where they'll find their answer. Generally you should be able to express your point in a more succinct fashion, particular on an internet forum.

[Lord Raven]

This was the point which was originally brought up...

the only thing he cares about how fast he can beat it; character development, growths, and designs don't mean anything to him(neither does roy's promotion because roy isn't walking 90% of the time)

Obviously, he cares about those things, because he talks about them. If you really wanted to hear what someone thought, you should at least go through the final chapter which is a 15 minute Q&A session that had very few questions about LTCs in general, but I doubt the person who initially requested it really cares and will continue to hurl out false facts about someone simply because they aren't fond of the playstyle or out and out don't like them. I don't know what their reasoning is for saying what they did, but as someone who talks to him fairly often, I can assure you that is far from the truth.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Lord Raven

[dondon151]

Yeah, you can't just link 20+ chapters worth of video and tell people that's where they'll find their answer. Generally you should be able to express your point in a more succinct fashion, particular on an internet forum.

whether i care about character development, growths, designs, and roy's promotion time has nothing to do with my criticism of FE6 fix hacks in general. rather than further derailing this thread with an exposition of my ~true opinion~ on FE6, skitty of time can investigate it himself. it is not my responsibility to address flamebaiting accusations and furthermore, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is that FE6 doesn't have many things that are in need of fixing.

Edited February 6, 2015 by dondon151

[Siuloir]

Also it's not a TAS man, come on.

"I use a lua script to look at the RNG."

Yeah, sorry, no.

Regardless of how super defensive you are of the LTC community, let's call a spade a spade rathjer than pretend looking at the RNG doesn't provide a significant advantage.

Not sure where Skitty was referring to all LTCers, just specifically dondon.

But this is drifting far afield at this point.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Siuloir

[Lord Raven]

In this case the tools make the execution stage take a ton less time, something which a lot of us don't have much of, but most importantly it's not a speedrun; it's primarily an LTC playthrough with 0% growths. I'm not going to go into the whole debate on whether or not you think it's legitimate, so let's not argue that. Because this has nothing to do with what Skitty is accusing others of.

EDIT: also I'm not getting super defensive of LTC at all... I only addressed the general sentiment towards the community.

Not sure where Skitty was referring to all LTCers, just specifically dondon.

Doesn't matter, because a lot of the LTCers and a lot of the fringe community (I'm on the fringe, btw) gets shit because low turncounts and all that are apparently all they care about, whether or not that's actually the reality of the situation.

So, please OP, if someone actually provides criticism, address the argument on its own merits and not on the username. That's effectively what my argument boils down to.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Siuloir]

Doesn't matter, because a lot of the LTCers and a lot of the fringe community (I'm on the fringe, btw) gets shit because low turncounts and all that are apparently all they care about, whether or not that's actually the reality of the situation.

But that's not who was being referred to.

Also, fringe community? Are you serious? You're going to paint yourself as some sort of oppressed subsection of an internet forum? Do you realize how absurd that sounds?

Edited February 6, 2015 by Siuloir

[Lord Raven]

If you notice, I'm addressing one thing and extending it to the other, because their complaints about dondon are complaints that people generally have towards the LTC community. Are you really going to ignore most of what I'm saying because I addressed more than one subject?

Also, fringe community? Are you serious? You're going to paint yourself as some sort of oppressed subsection of an internet forum? Do you realize how absurd that sounds?

Nope, because I'm not painting myself as such, and I don't believe I'm sounding absurd. I'm saying fringe because I'm not an LTCer but sometimes I get associated with LTCs and I follow LTCs more closely than most people. Edited February 6, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Baldrick]

I used to play draft playthroughs; when I chose my team, I couldn't care less about their design, personality, etc. only how useful they would be to helping me get the lowest turncount possible. But I don't solely play drafts; when I play non-competitively, I do care about those things. So you shouldn't make generalisations about people.

[dondon151]

Marcus for example has like -2 STR/DEF in this hack but since growths are lower he doesn't completely suck later on, while being much better for the game early on.

see, this is already a problem though. a lot of people agree that marcus is kind of the "perfect" jagen archetype unit (dominant earlygame, drops off really quickly) and this change really hurts him overall. there's no need to nerf his base stats unless you want to make him worse in normal mode, and whatever extra growths you're giving him are likely not going to matter anyway because unless it's to the order of +20% in each individual stat, he's not going to level up enough times to see the difference and he's still going to be bad later in the game. if you're not giving him extra growths, he's not going to "not completely suck later on" because everyone else has slightly lower growths unless the enemy units basically stop growing.

If you mean balance then well, the intention is to make to make it fairer on certain units of course. Sophia won't have stupid growths but they'll be better than the average unit.

here's another issue: giving sophia nino+ level growths isn't going to make her that much better. since you are basically making up canon, you have room for creative license here: if sophia is the priestess of nabata, can vaguely divine the future, and is relatively older than most of the cast because her dragon heritage makes her age more slowly, why not make her a unit whose power is representative of canon as opposed to keeping her a L1 shaman with better growths?

when you design units, you can't just push around numbers and hope that they'll work out; it's much more effective to ask yourself how changing a unit in a certain way will alter its functionality, otherwise you're just going to end up with a bunch of units that all function more or less the same.

(and who said i didn't care about design, that's bullshit lol)

[Dunal]

see, this is already a problem though. a lot of people agree that marcus is kind of the "perfect" jagen archetype unit (dominant earlygame, drops off really quickly) and this change really hurts him overall. there's no need to nerf his base stats unless you want to make him worse in normal mode, and whatever extra growths you're giving him are likely not going to matter anyway because unless it's to the order of +20% in each individual stat, he's not going to level up enough times to see the difference and he's still going to be bad later in the game. if you're not giving him extra growths, he's not going to "not completely suck later on" because everyone else has slightly lower growths unless the enemy units basically stop growing.

Within context of other changes (including enemies) reducing his base stats ended being more beneficial. There's a fine line between trivialising the game and not doing his job properly. There was actually room to weaken him a bit but still be awesome (this is hard mode btw).

Certain early maps are also easier than the original game (CH7 in particular). So he performs the same, but your other units are generally better in contrast.

For growths they've increased a lot (+25% or so STR/SPD which he'd still need 5-7 levels to make up for lost stats). But again, tier 1 units don't grow as much so Marcus still has a lead for a long time. Marcus has 10 AS which Alan needs to be like level 16 to match. (So actually I lied, Marcus lost 1 speed).

here's another issue: giving sophia nino+ level growths isn't going to make her that much better. since you are basically making up canon, you have room for creative license here: if sophia is the priestess of nabata, can vaguely divine the future, and is relatively older than most of the cast because her dragon heritage makes her age more slowly, why not make her a unit whose power is representative of canon as opposed to keeping her a L1 shaman with better growths?

when you design units, you can't just push around numbers and hope that they'll work out; it's much more effective to ask yourself how changing a unit in a certain way will alter its functionality, otherwise you're just going to end up with a bunch of units that all function more or less the same.

(and who said i didn't care about design, that's bullshit lol)

Sophia's a bit of both really. No way is she going to remain level 1 with the base stats she has. That's just unusable. She doesn't need to be an amazing unit but she does needs bases to be usable. What with growths being lower overall then underleveled units shouldn't be as bad anyway (relative to trained units).

Heck, if her starting level is low and her bases are really good, she might not even need great growths anyway because a lower base level just means fast EXP. =p

Something like Nino would work good enough for her. Problem with Nino was that she joined way way too late even for her archetype. Sophia's jointime is reasonable but her stats are just so much worse. Bumping her up to Nino's level would give her the best of both worlds.

There's also the 'rule of redundancy'. Lategame enemies need to be just strong enough so that growth units are actually efficient compared to base stat units. Most FE games, including FE6, can be ploughed through with units like Percival so that also needs to change. So if training Sophia saves effort/time in later maps, at the cost of earlier ones then at least her role has some purpose, even if she still isn't an amazing choice. Someone like Nino was also bad because her stat outcome isn't really necessary or useful for anything, let alone the effort getting her there (base level pent is sufficient at doing anything you'd want Nino to do).

Edited February 7, 2015 by DLuna

[Irysa]

Most FE games, including FE6, can be ploughed through with units like Percival so that also needs to change.

Why does this "need" to change? It's a change that's already been put into practice by the higher difficulties of New Mystery and Awakening, but I haven't seen anyone give a reasonable argument as to how this is supposed to be better.

HM Percival is an incredible unit but he is not Robin tier throw into the middle of the map lol at you kind of unit, he takes some degree of finesse to use.

see, this is already a problem though. a lot of people agree that marcus is kind of the "perfect" jagen archetype unit (dominant earlygame, drops off really quickly) and this change really hurts him overall

Seconding this, FE6 Marcus is IMO the most well implemented Jeigan style unit in any FE game. Not everyone agrees with me on this latter point but I also think the fact he doesn't actually ORKO early axe users is really good too, the game is encouraging you to use Marcus to take on a lot of enemies and weaken them for your other units to clean up and grow. He's the perfect mentor teaching his less experienced soldiers.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Irysa

[Dunal]

Why does this "need" to change? It's a change that's already been put into practice by the higher difficulties of New Mystery and Awakening, but I haven't seen anyone give a reasonable argument as to how this is supposed to be better.

HM Percival is an incredible unit but he is not Robin tier throw into the middle of the map lol at you kind of unit, he takes some degree of finesse to use.

Awakening enemy stats are overboard and don't even matter past a certain point when you can break the game with certain things, so that's not really a fair argument.

New Mystery was a good direction IMO. It's just too bad that 75% of the playable cast are awful because growths arguably matter a bit too much and base stats aren't high enough.

Are you really saying that FE games are best being easier in the lategame than in the earlygame? Or that units like Percival make the lategame more interesting? I do disagree on both. 'Finesse' is arguable for anything. I'm not sure what you mean by that. Any strategy that doesn't involve turtling can be done better with 'finesse'. Whether Percival can 1RKO most things or not is irrelevant.

EDIT: Cecilia or Igrene are good examples of well balanced mid/lategame prepromotes. I will probably experiment with Cecilia having a worse staff rank but slightly better base stats + growths and that's about it. Niime is 'aight. Staff-bots are fine. But this is just my own thought process on things of course.

In fact, most prepromotes in FE6 are fine IMO. Percival is the only real exception and then you have... Yuno? Depends really because Falco Knights will likely be a lot better with other indirect changes, so might not even need that much of a change.

Seconding this, FE6 Marcus is IMO the most well implemented Jeigan style unit in any FE game. Not everyone agrees with me on this latter point but I also think the fact he doesn't actually ORKO early axe users is really good too, the game is encouraging you to use Marcus to take on a lot of enemies and weaken them for your other units to clean up and grow. He's the perfect mentor teaching his less experienced soldiers.

Marcus was actually 1RKOing some enemies in hard mode with an iron sword -- still does against archers/magi in the hack's current state. Even with nerfs, he's strong enough. I actually had to give him a Bronze Sword so he doesn't melt everything (rather than reducing his stats even more).

I won't deny FE6 Marcus is probably the best designed 'Jeigan' in the series, but when there is room to move him down a notch without taking away his niche, then it feels better. He's still extremely good. And with some maps being Rout rather than Seize it enforces his efficiency even more, in some respects.

Edited February 7, 2015 by DLuna

[Siuloir]

There's a fine line between trivialising the game and not doing his job properly.

I don't anyone would ever accuse FE6 Marcus of trivializing the entire game.

On a similar topic, Perceval is designed to give you a strong, RNG proof cavalier (or character in general, really) to compensate for the lackluster growths of FE6 and thereby protect against having a playthrough severely comprised by the hand of chance. This is not an uncommon occurrence in Fire Emblem.

He's also not the problem with FE6's lategame, arguably.

[Czar_Yoshi]

There's also the 'rule of redundancy'. Lategame enemies need to be just strong enough so that growth units are actually efficient compared to base stat units. Most FE games, including FE6, can be ploughed through with units like Percival so that also needs to change.

All you're doing is making high growth units become the best choice for lategame over high base units. That's not balancing anything, it's simply changing the dominant strategy.

Awakening enemy stats are overboard and don't even matter past a certain point when you can break the game with certain things, so that's not really a fair argument.

Awakening suffers from a bad exp formula, not from bad enemy design. Its enemy design is actually very good and only doesn't show because it's very difficult to not accidentally get someone ahead of the difficulty curve.