euklyd Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I refute this statement, Mario has a decent recovery. Mostly due to the fact the height he gets with Up B is decent and the fact that he can use the cape to push himself forward. And I also refute Fludd being worth a damn, its still by far like in Brawl the worst move in the entire game. It doesn't even do its supposed gimping job effectively. I disagree. FLUDD is easily the best special move in the game, second only to the Warlock Punch. [spoiler=ladies and gentlemen, I present...]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWs5oX5apUQ realtalk: how are Mario's custom down-bs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) If by people you mean me then yes I did say that. First off, his running speed is really bad, which wouldn't be so bad if his lasers, his most viable neutral option in other smash bros, weren't laggy as all hell. dtilt and ftilt are good for stuffing approaches but his bair is his only viable approach. Reflector is arguably a neutral option in certain matchups, but it's unsafe on shield. All his other options have too much lag or not enough range. His jab, upsmash, and fair not being consistent also don't help his placement, though at least his recovery was buffed. his running speed is bad, but it doesn't matter too much since down tilt and jab (with reaction to shields) are good pokes on the ground with said bair helping as well. lasers are decent for forcing stuff or getting quick damage, though they're not dumb like they were in brawl. let's remember with reflector that a LOT of moves are safe on shield, so that doesn't matter too much since its range and ability to trip to really good combo setups (triple f tilt to up throw, into stuff...) definitely make it usable in neutral. up tilt is a good anti air and can harass people on battlefield platforms and leads to combos or traps from or to up air/bair. yeah, up smash isn't that good, but f smash is still really strong and down smash is decent. fair is also great at gimping or putting people in an awful position if falco falls off the edge with it. Edited February 10, 2015 by ID Thanatos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingddd Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) I disagree. FLUDD is easily the best special move in the game, second only to the Warlock Punch. [spoiler=ladies and gentlemen, I present...]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWs5oX5apUQ realtalk: how are Mario's custom down-bs? Scalding fludd is meh but it does lock the enemy in position and the high pressure while is significantly better, the charge up time takes too long. FLUDD in general is only good for certain characters and unfortunately due to the amount of characters that have insane amount of recovery abilities, it makes it difficult to actually gimp anyone. It's only good for gimping bad recovery characters like Bowser, DK, Shulk, Ness, Captain Falcon, Little Mac and Ike. However it's still great for air control for follow ups. In the end though, caping recoveries is still the better option just more riskier. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcRXWtYRKWA Edited February 10, 2015 by kingddd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batter the Beast Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I refute this statement, Mario has a decent recovery. Mostly due to the fact the height he gets with Up B is decent and the fact that he can use the cape to push himself forward. And I also refute Fludd being worth a damn, its still by far like in Brawl the worst move in the entire game. It doesn't even do its supposed gimping job effectively. Well, I never did thorough testing on the height difference in Mario and Doc's up b, and good lord there is definitely a noticeable difference in heights, add in that Doc's down b is horrible for recovering while Mario has the cape like you pointed out makes Mario's recovery better than Doc's. Still mediocre compared to other high tiers, but much better than Doc's crap recovery. Doc's down b is only good for punishing spotdodges, and I suppose I haven't tried enough Mario to actually use his FLUDD, which should work for gimping in theory but maybe not in practice. his running speed is bad, but it doesn't matter too much since down tilt and jab (with reaction to shields) are good pokes on the ground with said bair helping as well. lasers are decent for forcing stuff or getting quick damage, though they're not dumb like they were in brawl. let's remember with reflector that a LOT of moves are safe on shield, so that doesn't matter too much since its range and ability to trip to really good combo setups (triple f tilt to up throw, into stuff...) definitely make it usable in neutral. up tilt is a good anti air and can harass people on battlefield platforms and leads to combos or traps from or to up air/bair. yeah, up smash isn't that good, but f smash is still really strong and down smash is decent. fair is also great at gimping or putting people in an awful position if falco falls off the edge with it. Falco's fsmash has too much of a startup to really be usable unless it's a hard read or punish. Lasers are fine for some damage from a distance or when the opponent is offstage, but trying to force anything with it onstage is not a good idea against anyone who isn't Dorf levels of slow just because of how laggy it is. Reflector is a passable option, though, for me anyway, the trip chance is unreliable and the move doesn't really net an advantage if it doesn't trip. His followup and offstage game are pretty good, but getting to that point is where Falco really struggles due to his bad approach options and speed. Maybe his strengths in those areas are fine enough to warrant his spot on the list, but I have a problem with his faults. Also Euklyd that punch was frickin amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) What? Ike's recovery isn't bad. He has both Quick Draw and Aether for that. Although Quick Draw leaving him helpless unless he strikes somebody does put a dent in his recovery skills overall. I always hated that... This is another reason I wish customs were considered. Close Combat has more distance range than regular Quick Draw and Aether Drive actually has horizontal range as well as vertical... Edited February 10, 2015 by Anacybele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Silver Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) Ike's recovery isn't bad. Lol, it's pretty bad. Aether can half the time get Ike back onto the stage, even at insane angles, but the fact stands it has terrible horizontal recovery. If Ike is far down, underneath the stage enough, Aether won't work. And Quick Draw needs to be charged for it to really be effective. Ike has two decent recovery moves. Sad thing is... They can't be used together. Why is Lucina below Marth? If anything, they should be together on the same tier. Bowser should be a bit further up. If you know how to use him... He's decent. Same thing with Toon Link. Edited February 10, 2015 by ~Silver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I'm not saying it's amazing or anything, but it's hardly bad. It's more like in the middle, mediocre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Marth has better ko potential than luci by a long shot. He had better be well above her Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I find Marth's tippers to be extremely hard to land though. And without them, he's pretty weak and with terrible range due to his sword getting shorter and shorter with each Smash game for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jave Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I agree that Marth should be a whole tier above Lucina. A Marth player at its best is easily more dangerous than a Lucina player at its best. And no way Ike is among the middle if we consider recovery alone. He's around the Bottom 10 given the limitations of both his recovery moves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Silver Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I'm not saying it's amazing or anything, but it's hardly bad. It's more like in the middle, mediocre. Alright, I'll agree with you on that. Then again, Ike's a pretty bulky character. If for any reason his recovery fails him, it's likely because he needs to die. Marth has better ko potential than luci by a long shot. Well, all he needs is... *sings* "Just the tttiiiipp!" *ahem* If anything, Lucina needs a buff to attain that higher position. If she's a balanced Marth, well... She should be a balanced Marth. with terrible range due to his sword getting shorter and shorter with each Smash game for some reason. This. Oh GOD, this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ein Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Alright, I'll agree with you on that. Then again, Ike's a pretty bulky character. If for any reason his recovery fails him, it's likely because he needs to die. Or they felt his recovery was just fineeeeee while Fox/Falco get a buffed recovery with similar recover movement akin to Ike despite their much better agility and jump height. Yup. Totally fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Silver Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) Or they felt his recovery was just fineeeeee while Fox/Falco get a buffed recovery with similar recover movement akin to Ike despite their much better agility and jump height. Both recovery options have a fair bit of lag, and honestly, with how bad their up-special is, Fox and Falco needed that buff. And again. With Ike's heaviness, if it gets to the point that he needs both of those recovery moves combined, he needs to die. Edited February 10, 2015 by ~Silver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) And no way Ike is among the middle if we consider recovery alone. He's around the Bottom 10 given the limitations of both his recovery moves. Then it's a good thing we're not considering recovery alone. Ike has excellent edge-guarding skills with his godly f-air, godly d-tilt, and neutral air. B-air is really fast and powerful. Hell, he has a lot of potential KO moves because they're fast and strong. His d-smash and u-smash are fairly decent as well since they have godly range. Ike can strike anyone around him with u-smash and d-smash strikes on both sides. He's also quite heavy and hard to knock out. It's not easy to gimp his Quick Draw when he recovers anymore, as he's no longer helpless if he lands it on a target. You could try to spike him, but that's not easy to do on any character. He also has a few combos up his sleeve. His only flaws are that he's pretty slow and lacks any sort of projectile (not counting his Aether Wave custom), which is why I place him in B- tier, personally. Maybe lower B at the highest. Edited February 10, 2015 by Anacybele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Ike's recovery isn't bad if his opponent is just going to let him get back on stage for free. It's fairly predictable otherwise and a good player can get him off stage. Also remember that Aether doesn't even grab the edge backwards, so if you get stuck under the stage it can be pretty hard to come back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentacotus Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) I actually like Ike's recovery. If you time it right the quick draw will go to the ledge and grab it without him being helpless. With Aether its an awesome move to use below the platform as the sword goes through and either forces the opponet to distance or shield from it. Aether Drive is an awesome custom move too overal decent recovery and his close combat goes right through people much in the same way as fox's illsion move does. The biggest thing though is that Ike's weight makes him a little tough to kill and launch (he's like the 4th heaviest) so there's that. Edited February 10, 2015 by LordTaco42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jave Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Then it's a good thing we're not considering recovery alone. Ike has excellent edge-guarding skills with his godly f-air, godly d-tilt, and neutral air. B-air is really fast and powerful. Hell, he has a lot of potential KO moves because they're fast and strong. His d-smash and u-smash are fairly decent as well since they have godly range. Ike can strike anyone around him with u-smash and d-smash strikes on both sides. He's also quite heavy and hard to knock out. It's not easy to gimp his Quick Draw when he recovers anymore, as he's no longer helpless if he lands it on a target. You could try to spike him, but that's not easy to do on any character. He also has a few combos up his sleeve. His only flaws are that he's pretty slow and lacks any sort of projectile (not counting his Aether Wave custom), which is why I place him in B- tier, personally. Maybe lower B at the highest. I was responding to your initial claim when you said Ike's recovery isn't bad, which is not true. Ike's recovery is pretty bad and can be easily punished if you're a competent player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Yea, the main problem with Ike's recovery is that it can be gimped more easily than others, and is either hyper-Horizontal, or hyper-Vertical. If someone like 'Dorf Ftilts you offstage sideways, before you can prep your SideB to recover, gravity will have taken over. Characters like Pikachu, Robin, Samus, kind of LucinaMarth,even Luigi can chain advancement SideB moves into an eventual UpB recovery, but Ike's inability to act following Quickdraw is what hurts his recovery. That's what we're getting at, I think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Characters like Pikachu, Robin, Samus, kind of LucinaMarth,even Luigi can chain advancement SideB moves into an eventual UpB recovery, but Ike's inability to act following Quickdraw is what hurts his recovery. That's what we're getting at, I think Robin? I mean, sure, I use Arcfire on occasion to help me recover, but it's to distract my opponent, not to advance me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Yeah, Quick Draw leaving Ike helpless always annoyed me... I wish Sakurai would fix this in a patch! >_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 marth still has decent range. spaced down tilt is great for stopping ground approaches and making the opponent respect your space. tipper f smash is ridiculous and battlefield platforms are awesome with it. ike's quick draw is a pretty bad recovery move. it can be intercepted either by slapping him out of it or just taking the hit so he falls and dies. i'm not quite sure about how ike's aether works, but i'm pretty sure he only has super armor when ragnell goes up, so he can probably be hit out of it by a spaced attack at the apex to avoid the hitbox protecting him (in PM at least i can space pika's f smash to beat it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Actually, Ike is no longer helpless if he actually hits someone with Quick Draw. I read this somewhere, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Actually, Ike is no longer helpless if he actually hits someone with Quick Draw. I read this somewhere, anyway. he'll still fall and die if he hits someone since gravity will pull him down and he likely won't be able to do a quick draw before he's too low and likely won't be able to aether onto the ledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batter the Beast Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Also with the whole Marth vs Lucina thing, if Marth manages to break a shield, he gets a guaranteed fully charged tipped fsmash (in theory), which KOs way earlier than Lucina's. In general, as it stands, Lucina is just a character with mediocre range, a lot of lag and okay damage whereas Marth can take earlier stocks with tips and has better damage overall if the player has good spacing, which they should have if they're playing Marth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Robin? I mean, sure, I use Arcfire on occasion to help me recover, but it's to distract my opponent, not to advance me. I mean in that you can use Robin's UpB to recover at an angle, and if need be, use Arcfire to guard the ledge and aid yourself with your own recovery. I compeltely worded this incorrectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.jpg_large.thumb.jpg.f2d3abf71ab721ac00c5f689699cfa50.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.