What were they thinking when they made FE7?

[timehopper]

The Black Fang is what kicks off the Laus subplot though. Playing FE7, you'd think that after dealing with the Black Fang that Lycia would be more united. FE6 suggests Lycia's downfall was long in the making and that they only needed Bern to show up before they all started betraying each other. From that perspective, I wouldn't say that FE7's Laus subplot has much to do with FE6's Lycia.

I always got the impression the whole Black Fang thing was more or less a private conflict. Almost a secret war, without going to fullscale warfare. It didn't seem like most of the Lycian League knew what was going on behind the curtain of Laus' power-mongering. I don't think most of them even knew the Black Fang was involved. And the other nations had very little to do with the overall plot of FE7, save for Bern. And even then, part of the whole interaction with Bern was "we need something and Bern can supply it -- oh wait the Black Fang is here too, let's kill two birds with one stone."

I'm way oversimplifying it, but that's the general impression I got.

FE7's Laus plotline sets the stage to show that there have always been cracks in Lycia's unity. So it does address a minor plot point in FE6, even if some of the connections are shaky.

[Box]

To the extent that FE7 blames Lycia's disunity on the Black Fang, one would expect their removal to help. It also suggests that the alliance fundamentally works without the Black Fang's meddling.

[feplus]

timehopper puts it well -- the conflict with the Black Fang is a "secret war," a small-scale conflict unlike any Fire Emblem (other than arguably Thracia 776). Fighting an assassin guild rather than The Evil Empire earns you points for uniqueness.

And I said previously that Elibe itself was ripe for exploration, which FE7 undoubtedly accomplishes; we learn more about the Scouring, about dragons, about Lycia, about the legendary weapons, about the eight heroes, about the political tensions which led to the events of FE6, and about the previous generation of good guys.

Edited February 11, 2015 by feplus

[Box]

timehopper puts it well -- the conflict with the Black Fang is a "secret war," a small-scale conflict unlike any Fire Emblem (other than arguably Thracia 776). Fighting an assassin guild rather than The Evil Empire earns you points for uniqueness.

And I said previously that Elibe itself was ripe for exploration, which FE7 undoubtedly accomplishes; we learn more about the Scouring, about dragons, about Lycia, about the legendary weapons, about the eight heroes, about the political tensions which led to the events of FE6, and about the previous generation of good guys.

I think you've got it backwards. Circa FE6, there is no Elibe that exists outside of the way that FE6 portrays it. It's fine if you like FE7's portrayal of Elibe, but it doesn't derive a whole lot from FE6's portrayal Elibe. And that's what's kind of weird when looking at the two together.

[BBM]

To the extent that FE7 blames Lycia's disunity on the Black Fang, one would expect their removal to help. It also suggests that the alliance fundamentally works without the Black Fang's meddling.

Just because the initial unease was caused by the Black Fang doesn't mean that them being gone would get rid of the unease though... If you tap at a vase until it has cracks in it, stopping won't get rid of the cracks you've created, and then all it needs is one more hit to break.

Yes, the Black Fang started it, but what was there at the end? Hector and Eliwood, the most important people in Lycia, would obviously never trust Laus and Erik again. If they talked to Lyn at all (or if she married one of them), they probably didn't have a great impression of Marquess Araphen either... The game doesn't say what happens to Santaruz in the long-term after Helman is killed, but surely there'd be some mistrust there too, considering Santaruz was part of a plot to overthrow Ostia? We see that Oswin is wary of staying with Eliwood once it's found out that his dad was part of it, and only Hector and Eliwood being great friends prevented conflict there. Really, it's not the entire Lycian Alliance banding together, it's Ostia, Pherae, and Caelin (which gets subsumed at the end of FE7 anyways).

I mean, I overall agree that FE7 isn't linked a great deal to FE6 (probably for reasons of it being released internationally when FE6 wasn't, as other people said), but I think the Lycia aspect of FE7 was the one part where the writers did link back well to FE6, even if it was only to a minor part.

[feplus]

I think you've got it backwards. Circa FE6, there is no Elibe that exists outside of the way that FE6 portrays it. It's fine if you like FE7's portrayal of Elibe, but it doesn't derive a whole lot from FE6's portrayal Elibe. And that's what's kind of weird when looking at the two together.

FE7 expands upon the mythos established in FE6, as a good prequel should. It builds on plenty of what FE6 established -- again, that includes dragons, political intrigue, Lycia, Bern, and the legendary heroes among other things.

Where specifically do you think there's disconnect between 7 and 6?

[BBM]

Other than the Lycia stuff (and I guess the Bern stuff but I agree with Box that it's pretty tacked on), the main plot of FE7 has nothing to do with FE6. Links between FE6 and FE7 are for the most part closer to the ones between FE1, FE2, and FE3 than FE9 and FE10 or even FE4 and FE5. It's the same place and there are some characters in common but for the most part they're pretty different games.

As for building on what FE6 established, we learn about Athos and Brammimond, but that's kind of it as far as the legendary heroes go. Etruria and Ilia might as well not exist in FE7, other than providing some characters from there. Dragons... okay, but we learn a lot more about them from FE6 than FE7 overall?

[feplus]

Links between FE6 and FE7 are for the most part closer to the ones between FE1, FE2, and FE3 than FE9 and FE10

Sounds about right, though I don't see this as problematic.

One small thing: we also learn a bit about the personalities of Durban and Roland in addition to Athos / Bramimond.

Oh, and as dragons go, 6 gives us a child, a villain, and a tragic figure; 7 gives us two relatable dragons to learn from and sympathize with. The games are complementary here.

Edited February 11, 2015 by feplus

[Box]

For what it's worth, I don't think that the personalities and motivations of the legendary heroes are all that important to FE6's world. Hartmut's motivations explain the MacGuffin in that game, but otherwise they exist more as setting than characters.

I'd also say the Dragon's Gate stands pretty well on its own. It doesn't provide additional context that was lacking in FE6. It fits better with Nergal's motivations and quintessence.

[Jedi]

Awakening was the same. I guess they think western players can't handle alternate goals.

This is a pretty pretentious thought considering the various goals in games such as Radiant Dawn.

[lonelyVoxel]

You must be joking. The fact that the game would put you as the 'heroes' who are actually committing genocide is the best aspect. You could have them start out by killing the dragons, thinking they were ridding the world of some awful monsters, and then it begins to dawn on them that the whole time they were basically being Hitler, and at this point you introduce the person who originally started having them kill dragons, the mastermind of evil.

A story that dark? FE5 wouldn't have anything on it if you worked hard enough to make everything feel correct.

Been turning this over in my head and that actually sounds good... if you don't know that it's the Scouring. I'd find it hard as a player, knowing that it's about the Scouring where a lot of dragons die, to like the game, since it's a pretty big spoiler. However, I did know the identity of Marth coming into Awakening when I played it the first time, and the game was still enjoyable. I think it's just a matter of making it unclear that the setting is the Scouring at first. This may be something I play around with once FEXNA comes out, though. Thanks for the ideas!

shu'up i haven't played jugdral yet

[Lord Raven]

Awakening was the same. I guess they think western players can't handle alternate goals.

FE1-4, 6 and FE12 were all seize, and those didn't see the light of day in the west.

FE7-10 were varied.

FE11 was more of a re-release than a remake and therefore it was all seize. FE13 was basically just rout/boss, and that seemed to cater to a Japanese crowd more than a Western crowd to begin with.

[lonelyVoxel]

FE1-4, 6 and FE12 were all seize, and those didn't see the light of day in the west.

FE2 was route for each map.

FE13 was basically just rout/boss, and that seemed to cater to a Japanese crowd more than a Western crowd to begin with.

No wonder I've always had trouble with HM in this game...

I am the resident Dingus, after all.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Forceman

[-Cynthia-]

FE1-4, 6 and FE12 were all seize, and those didn't see the light of day in the west.

FE7-10 were varied.

FE11 was more of a re-release than a remake and therefore it was all seize. FE13 was basically just rout/boss, and that seemed to cater to a Japanese crowd more than a Western crowd to begin with.

The FE12 prologues and gaidens are not all seize chapters.

[BBM]

Sounds about right, though I don't see this as problematic.

One small thing: we also learn a bit about the personalities of Durban and Roland in addition to Athos / Bramimond.

Oh, and as dragons go, 6 gives us a child, a villain, and a tragic figure; 7 gives us two relatable dragons to learn from and sympathize with. The games are complementary here.

but the villain gives more information about dragons and the Scouring than the two relatable dragons do? I don't remember Nils and Ninian giving any information about dragons that wasn't in FE6 other than like 'we fled into the other world and then were called back by Nergal'

Edited February 12, 2015 by BBM

[Irysa]

Seize is like, the most strategically interesting and varied objective anyway, maybe only outdone by FE5 escape (which is like everyone has to seize). Survive/Defence are typically bland because rather you typically get a bajillion turns to accomplish any subobjectives so you're mostly just playing timed rout, Kill Boss is seize - 1 for all intents and purposes (since you don't have to seize after killing the boss), and routs diminish the value of noncombat units significantly.

The FE12 prologues and gaidens are not all seize chapters.

Prologue is cool if you're on higher difficulties but the gaidens are all rubbish anyway.

[BBM]

I don't really understand what value non-combat units have in Seize/Kill Boss maps that they don't have in Rout maps? Dancers are equally helpful in both, warpers/rescuers are better in the former but still very useful for the latter, and healers are more useful in the latter because your units are probably engaging in more combat. On the other hand the argument could be made that in Seize/KB maps after warp/rescue, the chapter requires only one combat unit and the rest don't even matter. There are a lot of maps that can be trivialized by warp bosskiller/kill boss/dance warper/warp lord/seize.

[Irysa]

I said diminish, not "they're useless". Routs tend to have much larger enemy clumps and are heavily EP orientated, whilst dancers and staffbots are player phase orientated units. Obviously they're still helpful but they are not nearly as impactful on clears as they are in seize or kill boss because their tools aren't nearly as directly relevant to the objective. Seize puts far more value on player phase by comparison.

Being able to easily fullskip a map is an attribute that is more commonly associated with games with unlimited warp ranges such as FE11, and whilst I admit those can be rather dull, that isn't an argument against seize, it's an argument against seize maps not designed with warp in mind. FE6 has a lot of maps that are made far easier with a warpskip but still have a fair amount of other things you need to worry about when implementing said warpskip.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Irysa

[feplus]

but the villain gives more information about dragons and the Scouring than the two relatable dragons do? I don't remember Nils and Ninian giving any information about dragons that wasn't in FE6 other than like 'we fled into the other world and then were called back by Nergal'

Sure. Ninils' main contribution to the Elibe mythos is letting us learn more about dragons as conscious beings with complex thoughts and emotions. We get some of that through Yahn but little from Fa (a child's mind) or Idoun (a soulless vessel until the closing minutes).

[Box]

The main problem that I have with Seize in particular is that it limits what your Lord unit can do. You have to keep moving towards the throne so you can't have him fight reinforcements or complete side-objectives.

I liked the idea behind Arrive in X Turns objective, although I don't think it was ever done particularly well. I think it could be a great way of scaling difficulty by changing X across difficulties.

[Robert Stewart]

FE2 was route for each map.

not quite. The fight with Rudolf ends as soon as you kill Rudolf.

[lonelyVoxel]

not quite. The fight with Rudolf ends as soon as you kill Rudolf.

im not there shush

But mostly route.

[TheMoodyBidoof]

I think it was to make up for the mistake they made in FE6... Roy. But seriously, FE7 is good and all... But eh. It seems kinda useless in a story sense.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Awakening was the same. I guess they think western players can't handle alternate goals.

FE6 had no goal variation and wasn't localized. FE7 had plenty and was. Where are you even getting that from?

As someone who places value on characterization in addition to worldbuilding, I think FE7 was a fine prequel. However, even if I cared only about worldbuilding, I'd still think it does a good job thanks to Lycia, Dragon lore, and so on. If it only expounded on stuff you already knew from FE6, there would be no variation and the story would become fairly predictable- and proper worlds are broader than the scope of one conflict anyway, so having unrelated bits actually helps FE7's worldbuilding.

[Spikey]

I always have a problem playing the games back to back. It is just weird to first play 6 and then 7 (storywise), or first 7 and then 6 (gameplay wise). . But they are both great games in their own right I guess. Actually, they might be my favorite games like, ever.

Except for that hateful slow Lyn mode in 7.