Should Casual Return?

[Mighty Kamina]

1. Actually, my whole thing about the condemnation was to explain that you all called me out for a crime I never committed, only to commit it yourselves. Personal attacks and wild explanations for other people on your side, and some rather impersonal justifications and findings of science from me.

2. That's great and all, but I doubt that it was as decisive a factor as the waifu game people went crazy for, as well as the demand for a good 3DS title. I still doubt strongly that a large number of people joined due to a mode they had very little reason to hear about.

Considering your constant misunderstanding and misrepresentation of everything said here, I'm going to have to discount this. I repeat, you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Also, pro-casual meant you supported the casual mode, and everyone who glorifies casual gaming pretends it's about freedom of choice.

If you can't see that you're doing the exact same thing as what you're accusing us of, then dealing with you has become a waste of time.

And just what is wrong with supporting both Hardcore and Casual gameplay? Classic mode and other Hardcore features won't be going anywhere just because more Casual elements are also included. The Fire Emblem dev team is a far cry from Sakurai.

Also in regards to Makaze, I understand where you're coming from, but I personally disagree that casual mode damages the series.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Monado Boy

[Shin]

And just what is wrong with supporting both Hardcore and Casual gameplay? Classic mode and other Hardcore features won't be going anywhere just because more Casual elements are also included. The Fire Emblem dev team is a far cry from Sakurai.

In multiplayer games, it tends to split the fanbase, mostly because it spreads players through different modes. I can imagine the concern is that single player games will be tailored more to be easier and accessible and detracting from any "hardcore" elements. I think FE's got the spread pretty well done so far for both easy and difficult modes. Whilst there are probably a handful who find even the hardest difficulties reasonably easy, I doubt they'd say that no attempt was made.

[Makaze]

In a nutshell, brah. I wouldnt stress it too much because i doubt the gameplay elements you long for are going anywhere. We dont even have confirmation on this new title having a marriage system. (kinda hope it doesnt)

Those guys are more of a minority than you think. I havent seen anyone complain about Classic mode when they dont have to play it. Also, this is you caring way too much about what other people think.

My list of missed mechanics/flawed changes is long. Stealing and Fog of War are way up there.

Next you'll say it's okay for people to hate the opening to Kingdom Hearts II.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Makaze

[Loki Laufeyson]

My list of missed mechanics/flawed changes is long. Stealing and Fog of War are way up there.

Next you'll say it's okay for people to hate the opening to Kingdom Hearts II.

FoW is likely coming back. Wasnt there something in the trailer?

I sure hope its ok to hate KH2. Cuz i abhor that series.

[Makaze]

FoW is likely coming back. Wasnt there something in the trailer?

I sure hope its ok to hate KH2. Cuz i abhor that series.

If there was, woo! That's a big step up.

I'll kill you.

[Ambulz]

Fucking christ this thread went ballistic.

I say people should play whatever the hell the hell they enjoy and not judge other people for choosing to play someway else. *drops mic*

[Ryo]

FoW is likely coming back. Wasnt there something in the trailer?

I sure hope its ok to hate KH2. Cuz i abhor that series.

There's nothing in the trailer that indicates the return of FoW. Or am I missing something?

Fucking christ this thread went ballistic.

I say people should play whatever the hell the hell they enjoy and not judge other people for choosing to play someway else. *drops mic*

Pretty much this.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Ryo

[Loki Laufeyson]

There's nothing in the trailer that indicates the return of FoW. Or am I missing something?

I thought there was. I think people were probably theorizing there would be FoW returning and i coulda got confused. It really should come back.

If there was, woo! That's a big step up.

I'll kill you.

We can just be hopeful they put it in there. (or at very least, on higher difficulties.)

Deal with it.

[Makaze]

Deal with it.

On that topic, I'm actually more concerned when people who like the KH games in general have an issue with a specific thing that I like. They are more likely to buy the other games from the series and control the devs that way. Steer the niche away from things I want more of. Hence I am more upset by people who refuse to play Classic than people who refuse to play Fire Emblem at all.

Since I prefer the second game, I'm on the opposite side of the fence when it comes to the KH fanbase.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE

Edited February 14, 2015 by Makaze

[Cysx]

Ugh no. This isnt how it works.

Say FE is a restaurant. You've been going to that restaurant for a while. You always order the steak. The steak is amazing. That steak is why you keep going to the restaurant. Theres others who like that steak too, but their numbers arent hella large. So the restaurant is having troubles cuz they keep selling this steak, but no new customers are coming in and they are losing money. The restaurant says they are going to go out of business. Before they go out of business, they decide to make a new menu as sort of a "Going out of business bang". That new menu brings in a huge influx of customers. However, the steak you love is still on that menu and even the restaurant is putting it on their specials marquee every day. The restaurant wants the new customers to try the steak too. However, they realize that the new menu is making people happy and giving them business. So they decide to NOT go out of business and keep that new menu. Business for them is steady.

The steak is still on the fucking menu. No one is stopping the steak from being made. No one. If you cannot share your space with people who arent ordering the steak, that is your problem,

And yet, by no action of yours, the steak tastes worse. You no longer feel at home in that little restaurant. People around you blame you for being selfish and stubborn when you state that you liked it better before. Even though you've done no wrong, even though you're just being sincere. You start to despise these people. One night you take a knife and...

... hm, so yeah. Also the inclusion of casual makes classic into a self-inflicted challenge, so one could say it does negatively affect classic in a way. Doesn't matter much but eh, that's something.

Still, I think that casual should stay, or be replaced by something better that achieves the same result, even though I'm not too fond of it to say the least. I also like the idea of giving an incentive to play classic over casual that people who have never played classic can relate to. Nothing too big though. A Farina would be fine.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Cysx

[Irysa]

@Irysa: I assume you read on wrt why they did ultimately put Casual in the game after all the passionate discussion? Isn’t that really the majority opinion of a lot of veterans? We’ll still play Classic, but family/friends who otherwise would not play FE might now enjoy it more, and being able to share that experience with them is rather nice.

First point, of course, second point, it probably is, third point, I'm of the opinion that that's achievable without Casual Mode.

I think people grossly misunderstand this point. I don't want to neccessarily remove accessability. We can make the series easier for access, but I'm of the strong opinion that permadeath should not have been compromised. Would permadeath really be a terrible offputting thing if, as Baldrick agreed with me, we simply allowed lots of battle saves on lower difficulties? We can hypothetically make the games even easier via lots of methods that don't revolve around removing permadeath.

With this, the problem is addressed, because why is permadeath a problem if units effectively can't die? If someone is STILL resistant because they don't want to be put under the kind of pressure that permadeath has at all, ever, then aren't they objecting to something quite core to the design ethos, and as such, why do they need to be accomodated? If someone objects to the fact they can't play the game as a pacifist, why should that be accomodated to? Should I be able to talk down every single enemy I fight, ala Fallout? I say no, because that isn't what Fire Emblem was, is, or ever should be.

If the answer is money, then sure, I'll admit it's easy for me to sit here and say "I'd rather the series have died than compromised itself" because my job isn't on the line. But I don't believe the answer was/is money more than a desire to have those who felt anxious about participating before, now feel they could partake in it, as many have said. But again, I ask - Why can't this goal be achieved without removing Permadeath?

The reason your posts reads as “elitist” is you are inherently claiming your opinion regarding the FE series is better. Maybe you’re a more dedicated and knowledgeable fan, more hardcore and played more games, for longer times. Investigated the series more in depth. But if you make such claims, embrace the “elitist” backlash (I personally don’t find the passive-aggressiveness/”oh I’m so sad” very compelling >_>).

It was most definitely emotionally charged but I'm not sure how you're reading it as passive aggressive? Regardless, if we're having a discussion about a topic where there are disagreements about like, practically anything, one person's opinion is automatically being placed over another in the discourse. I don't see people pulling the elitist tag on someone explaining to someone else that Marcus is actually a really good unit in FE7 for example.

EDIT: I will however add that while you (and others) may act so if you feel so strongly, it is extremely toxic for the growth of a fan community (who, at a most basic level, usually just enjoy a game and want to have fun discussing it). And this self-perpetuates (extremely evident even itt). Care or don't. ;\

I should think about at least a good half of what is discussed on the actual FE boards these days revolves around disagreements and differing opinions, and I see that as healthy diversity, not as toxicity. Although I must admit, a lot of people in this thread do a great job of making me wish I never replied or even openly took a side, because of them behaving like shitheads. Fortunately there's cool people like Refa, Baldrick, Red Fox, etc.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Irysa

[The Protagonist]

SF has really disappointed me today.

[Florete]

SF has really disappointed me today.

Keep comments like these to yourself, please.

[The Protagonist]

How would you recommend I express displeasure at the insulting, aggressive, and illogical means of argument presented by many SF members in one of my first days here? Should I address people personally, as I politely have before, or is criticism of scummy people not permitted?

[Florete]

If you're having such a difficult time, there is always the option to leave, whether it be the topic or the entire site, whether you return later or not. Posts such as yours above add nothing to the topic and only serve to start more problems.

[shadowofchaos]

Although I must admit, a lot of people in this thread do a great job of making me wish I never replied or even openly took a side, because of them behaving like shitheads.

I do admit I was quite emotionally invested in earlier posts.

If I qualify as one of those people, I humbly apologize.

Having the view of Casual Mode not being the best decision is a right for you and others to have.

But I simply just get miffed at when some people (you haven't been one to mention) that it lacks any value, especially when my friends and I have had actual fun with the mode.

Taking away the option when it already has value for some part of the fanbase and really doesn't "damage" the experience of others despite what Makaze may imply, is literally giving me a taste of a fun mode, and ripping it away from me on the next rendition of a game.

While it's not really one of the major uses of Casual Mode, I happen to enjoy literally screwing around with the RNG for the visuals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iklVVjz42iA

Edited February 14, 2015 by shadowofchaos

[eclipse]

[spoiler=Giant wall of responses]

Mods???

HOW TO SUMMON A MOD:

1. Find a post that you think breaks the Code of Conduct.

2. Click Report.

3. Cite WHY you think the post deserves a mod's attention.

4. The mods will handle it from there.

Just gonna pose a quick question out of curiosity's sake. I think I'm in the minority, but am I seriously the only one of the veterans here actually invested in casual mode and actually have fun with it?

I'm in the middle of a Lunatic/Casual run. I can execute VERY different strategies. . .because of the save states. I'm surprised that more people aren't abusing them!

I like casual for practicing speedrunning tbh

OMG that's what I thought about after playing two chapters of Casual, BAN!

But in seriousness, that's what my thought was as soon as I started playing Casual.

Or perhaps people presumed the unreasonable.

Here's a hint: If people aren't taking your posts well, YOU might be the problem.

(this goes for more than the person I just quoted, BTW)

Can we go back to discussing incentives to get more people to play Classic?

Permadeath is key in FE, removin it with no real drawback for doing so is stupid imo

Who cares, short of drafts?

I want to see just how far I can push FE with Casual, as opposed to Classic ("sac the healer to extend a rout map by one turn because I forgot to put Gaius in range of an important chest" is one application). Why NOT take what the devs give us, and run with it?

It was? I thought it was more people just wanting it gone altogether.

I don't mind it staying, so long as I can get a rl friend of mine to play Classic at some point. He got into the series through FE13, which is nice and all I tell him to try FE6 but, but I want him to be able to try to learn about a feature that made me love FE10 when I played that. I don't mind if he ends up disliking it... so long as he give it a shot.

Incentives for Classic would help me with that.

. . .or just let him enjoy the game as-is? Not everyone has to find enjoyment in the same things.

I KNOW I'm not going to get my mom on any mode other than Normal/Casual, and I'm okay with that.

I doubt that, actually. I think it was probably the other new aspects of the game, like the waifu simulator excuse.

Cut this shit out. Who cares about what got them into the series?

People refusing to play Classic because they are stuck in baby mode with features like that upsets me. They may not have to play Classic mode, but I'd be a lot happier if they did.

Who cares about what other people find fun? They're not going to hunt you down if you only play Classic.

Clearly, we do, and you haven't really presented a reason for why that's wrong.

Because your idea of fun may not be my idea of fun, and you seem to have problems grasping that. Here's how to disagree correctly.

1. Actually, my whole thing about the condemnation was to explain that you all called me out for a crime I never committed, only to commit it yourselves. Personal attacks and wild explanations for other people on your side, and some rather impersonal justifications and findings of science from me.

2. That's great and all, but I doubt that it was as decisive a factor as the waifu game people went crazy for, as well as the demand for a good 3DS title. I still doubt strongly that a large number of people joined due to a mode they had very little reason to hear about.

I'm sorry, you do NOT get to play the victim card here. Nor do you get to presuppose why people picked up the game.

How would you recommend I express displeasure at the insulting, aggressive, and illogical means of argument presented by many SF members in one of my first days here? Should I address people personally, as I politely have before, or is criticism of scummy people not permitted?

STOP PLAYING THE VICTIM CARD. It takes two to argue, and I didn't see you leaving the argument of your own free will.

---

Man, that was a headache.

I wouldn't mind save points a la FE11/FE12 coming back in both modes, and getting rid of "save anywhere" in casual. Instead of two issues, I could only look at one (permadeath on/off). I'd still play casual, just to see how drastically my strategies change.

Now I want to swap BACK to Lunatic/Classic after my Casual run, and report my findings back, since it seems like part of the issue is how different the two modes are. It won't be quite as drastic as someone who's theoretically weaning themselves off of Casual for the first time, though.

EDIT: Different thread, VERY RELEVANT to the discussion at hand. If you have a stance on this issue, I strongly suggesting watching both videos.

Edited February 14, 2015 by eclipse

[The Protagonist]

If all you got out of my disagreeing with people was that I didn't understand their idea of fun, I fear this was a colossal waste of time.

I simply disagree with them.

[eclipse]

If all you got out of my disagreeing with people was that I didn't understand their idea of fun, I fear this was a colossal waste of time.

I simply disagree with them.

Yes, it was. Because I had to read through all of that. You're free to think that it's not for you - if you don't like it, that's fine. But do NOT think that your opinion trumps what other people think is fun, because it doesn't. It's clear that there's people out there who think casual mode is fun, and if they're having fun, let them be.

I intend on seeing just how far I can push that mode. Why pay for a full game and only play half of its modes?

[Irysa]

I think battle saves are in on different spectrum and don't have to be equated with removal of permadeath.

I do admit I was quite emotionally invested in earlier posts.

If I qualify as one of those people, I humbly apologize.

You're definitely not in that list of people being shitheads. You're chill, I respect you, and tbh I wasn't far off from just openly insulting a lot of the more condescending views of people against Casual Mode, so don't beat yourself up about it.

Taking away the option when it already has value for some part of the fanbase and really doesn't "damage" the experience of others despite what Makaze may imply, is literally giving me a taste of a fun mode, and ripping it away from me on the next rendition of a game.

Well, it doesn't, but I'm more concerned about how their own experience has been diluted. And if you ask why I care about that, it's the same reason you (and others) want Casual Mode, you want more people to experience the joy of Fire Emblem. Are we both being pompous by wanting that? I don't think so, and I think we're both fine with accessability, so really our positions aren't that different. I just want that accessability to actually bring people into experiencing one of the more compelling aspects Fire Emblem as well.

[eclipse]

I think battle saves are in on different spectrum and don't have to be equated with removal of permadeath.

I wish they were, but alas, they're tied in as of Awakening.

Anyway, did you get the chance to watch those videos? They offer another perspective on your stance (though it's not explicitly FE-related, except for that one excerpt about Awakening that's a tangent at best).

[Mighty Kamina]

Well, it doesn't, but I'm more concerned about how their own experience has been diluted. And if you ask why I care about that, it's the same reason you (and others) want Casual Mode, you want more people to experience the joy of Fire Emblem. Are we both being pompous by wanting that? I don't think so, and I think we're both fine with accessability, so really our positions aren't that different. I just want that accessability to actually bring people into experiencing one of the more compelling aspects Fire Emblem as well.

I understand this sentiment, but think about it this way. A fairly large number of people don't want to be forced to reset should they want to keep their favorite character, rather they just want to beat the map. While it's part of the challenge for myself and I enjoy that challenge, many potential players will see it bothersome, and having to deal with that would worsen the experience for them. (I wouldn't mind some Classic mode only rewards for a bigger incentive to try out Classic though). Including Casual mode just keeps the series way more newcomer friendly, while at the same time allowing it to cater to it's more hardcore audience.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Monado Boy

[Irysa]

I wish they were, but alas, they're tied in as of Awakening.

Doesn't have to be that way though.

Anyway, did you get the chance to watch those videos? They offer another perspective on your stance (though it's not explicitly FE-related, except for that one excerpt about Awakening that's a tangent at best).

I think you'll find that I vehemently disagree with Extra Credits on basically everything and consider James to be one of the most egotistical and poisonous sources of information about game design widely circulating the internet.

But that aside, both of those are about interpretations of difficulty and fun, which aren't really exactly tied to my points that I've raised repeatedly in this topic. Making the games easier and having options isn't the issue I'm contesting at all, it's about what values are being compromised to achieve it when they don't need to be compromised to do so.

I understand this sentiment, but think about it this way. A fairly large number of people don't want to be forced to reset should they want to keep their favorite character, rather they just want to beat the map. While it's part of the challenge for myself and I enjoy that challenge, many potential players will see it bothersome, and having to deal with that would worsen the experience for them. I mean, I wouldn't mind some Classic mode only rewards for incentive to try out Classic. Including Casual mode just keeps the series way more newcomer friendly, while at the same time allowing it to cater to it's older, more hardcore audience. (This is also why I don't care how easy normal mode is)

Then just have battle saves for them. We can even have a mode that automatically creates a save at the start of every turn up to 10 turns ago for the player to make it even easier. I think battle saves degrade the experience but nowhere near to the same degree as actually removing permadeath does, because the important tenant of "people die if they are killed" (shoot me) is maintained even with a battle save. You have to go back and correct that error if you want to keep that character. They are not replacable and you as the player are the one controlling if they live or die.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Irysa

[Mighty Kamina]

Then just have battle saves for them. We can even have a mode that automatically creates a save at the start of every turn up to 10 turns ago for the player to make it even easier. I think battle saves degrade the experience but nowhere near to the same degree as actually removing permadeath does, because the important tenant of "people die if they are killed" (shoot me) is maintained even with a battle save. You have to go back and correct that error if you want to keep that character. They are not replacable and you as the player are the one controlling if they live or die.

Battle saves could work out quite nicely, I do admit. If they did that it'd just be a matter of making stuff like normal mode more manageable for newcomers, as even though RD had battle saves in normal mode (shoot me if I'm wrong on this), it was still considered too brutal for a large number of casual players.

I mean, as long as Classic remains intact I don't really care what extra modes they add, I'm just happy that new players are having a good time with a franchise I've grown up with.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Monado Boy

[Irysa]

Localised Radiant Dawn normal mode was Japanese Hard Mode, and Easy Mode was Japanese Normal mode. This is why it was kinda difficult by comparison. Easy mode existed regardless though so I don't think that was really a problem.