Should Casual Return?

[Irysa]

@Irysa yes I've read your previous posts and they were good, this constant beating of a dead horse is not.

I don't see you bringing up the same complaint about the weekly FAVOURITE FE SONGS thread in the General Forum. If people enjoy discussing a topic, and nobody is being offensive then what's the issue?

IS has actually done some of the things you've suggested as alternatives to Casual before, they obviously felt this was a better alternative, are you challenging that you feel you know better then IS? Is this where we've gone as a community? We know better then the company that made the franchise we so love?

They have done some of the things yes, but not all of them. They were pressured into adding Casual Mode by executives, as they explained in their interview.

As for challenging the developers, are you saying that the people saying Veteran is a broken skill don't know better than the developers who put a free Paragon into the game from Prologue? Or complaints about the plotholes or whatnot? The entire point is that we're exchanging viewpoints and ideas, and making our minds up based on that exchange of information. If you don't like the discussion, you're free to leave. If you're asking me to stop because it's a fruitless exercise, I disagree, I'm very much stimulated by this topic.

it is still a strawman even if you phrase it as a question

The particular quote is being a tad facetious, but I still disagree that it's a strawman. I'm offering my interpretation of what he's just said; "it wouldn't be about strategy anymore", then attempting to frame it so as to make sure I've properly understood his point. I haven't misrepresented him, I'm trying to expose a potential logical inconsistency.

as far as lines go, since they seem to be so beloved:

the difference between adding casual mode and turning the game into a VN or pornographic work or whatever is that no matter how hard you argue it, FE + casual is still FE, and it's definitely still firmly in the SRPG genre

visual novels are not.

pornographic media, even when it has significant strategy elements, similarly does not fall into the same SRPG genre

Sure, which is why I said before,

I'm not actually comparing these modes to casual mode. I'm testing the viewpoint that any and all accomodations can and should be made.

Which is a secondary element to the discussion at hand. Also I highly disagree with your statement about pornographic media not being able to fall into the SRPG genre. There are lots of strategy porn games, although not all are pornographic to the same degree. Take Utawarerumono for example. I mean eroge in general kind of disproves that standpoint, forget SRPGs, there's a porn version of nearly any genre.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Irysa

[Baldrick]

pornographic media, even when it has significant strategy elements, similarly does not fall into the same SRPG genre

But what if the pornographic media had absolutely no effect on the gameplay whatsoever? If there were two games that were identical apart from one game having some alternate portraits, do you think that one game is an SRPG, and the other isn't?

@Jedi; honestly, I've said what I wanted to say, but I was drawn back in by some faulty logic. If you feel this thread should be put to rest (I wouldn't disagree with that, to be frank) you know what to do.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Baldrick

[euklyd]

it still primarily falls under the "pornographic media" genre; making FE games with porn is fundamentally changing their genre in ways that altering mechanics doesn't

you cannot argue that there is not a gaping chasm between the two, even if mechanically they are identical

I shouldn't have said "it's not an SRPG," but I stand by it not primarily being an SRPG.

also christ why does everything here always turn into porn debates it's like godwin's law but with pornography

Sure, which is why I said before,

[thing I'm too lazy to quote]

you asked where the line is drawn, I gave an answer

I don't care about your comparisons and whether you meant them seriously or not, I can use them to make a point as well

I mean you can even say "the line is drawn when fire emblem loses what makes it significantly different from other games of its genre"

I don't even disagree that permadeath adds "something special and valuable" to FE

if that's your entire argument, then congratulations, you have chosen a position that very, very few people on SF would argue against

ofc we can stretch that to extremes as well

like, forced ironman would bring even more depth. why aren't we agitating for that?

re: strawmen - I missed a post of FFM's where he did explicitly say that if it brings more people to the game then it's ok, so

my b.

he was still being led by the nose the entire way there

Edited February 16, 2015 by Euklyd

[FrostyFireMage]

if permadeath was actually more than just a gameplay mechanic that makes the stakes higher I would agree that Casual Mode was a poor design choice

I can have Lilina die in front of Roy and then let Roy have a light-hearted support convo with Wolt with Lilina's death never being mentioned again

[Irysa]

It does actually affect narrative and conversations and supports in various games though, and some change endings. Granted, it's not been as fleshed out as it could be, but that's partially because the majority of the playerbase do perfect plays, not letting anyone die. I don't see what's wrong with striving for it to be more important, rather than delegated as less. Their baseline reasoning for putting it in the original game is the same as it always was.

it still primarily falls under the "pornographic media" genre; making FE games with porn is fundamentally changing their genre in ways that altering mechanics doesn't
you cannot argue that there is not a gaping chasm between the two, even if mechanically they are identical
I shouldn't have said "it's not an SRPG," but I stand by it not primarily being an SRPG.
also christ why does everything here always turn into porn debates it's like godwin's law but with pornography

To be honest, that's just a subcategory in the same way that SRPGs aren't the same as regular JRPGs. If I alter some mechanics of Fire Emblem, like, say, making it real time, it isn't a Turn Based (look, more subcategorisation!) Strategy Role Playing Game anymore is it? However if I add some porn in there, it's still a Strategy Role Playing Game, it just happens to also have the additional factor of being a Pornographic Strategy Role Playing Game.

Talking about what it is "primarily" is an odd objection though. God of War is still an action game (albiet a terrible one) despite the fact there's full frontal nudity and sex in it. Additionally, the mode I've suggested is optional.

I don't even disagree that permadeath adds "something special and valuable" to FE
if that's your entire argument, then congratulations, you have chosen a position that very, very few people on SF would argue against
ofc we can stretch that to extremes as well
like, forced ironman would bring even more depth. why aren't we agitating for that?

I haven't "chosen" that position, that's just the one I've always had. Besides, you'll find quite a lot of people have argued against it throughout this thread, which is why I had to write so many posts about it and link the damn interview so much.

As for forced ironman, I'm all for it. But I don't think it's like, an important priority compared to other endeavours.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Irysa

[Baldrick]

But the pornographic material is in an optional mode, how can it be primarily about porn if you can play the strategy game completely porn-free?

The argument could have been made using any alternative mode that caters to a new fanbase. I believe Irysa chose a controversial one in order to try and find where people would draw the line?

re: strawmen - I missed a post of FFM's where he did explicitly say that if it brings more people to the game then it's ok, so

my b.

he was still being led by the nose the entire way there

So you said he "was putting words in [FFM's] mouth", then changed that to FFM "being led by the nose" when you found you were wrong? Is that what they call 'shifting the goalposts'?

[euklyd]

To be honest, that's just a subcategory in the same way that SRPGs aren't the same as regular JRPGs. If I alter some mechanics of Fire Emblem, like, say, making it real time, it isn't a Turn Based (look, more subcategorisation!) Strategy Role Playing Game anymore is it? However if I add some porn in there, it's still a Strategy Role Playing Game, it just happens to also have the additional factor of being a Pornographic Strategy Role Playing Game.

Talking about what it is "primarily" is an odd objection though. God of War is still an action game (albiet a terrible one) despite the fact there's full frontal nudity and sex in it. Additionally, the mode is optional.

the difference is cultural context, and that one of them is considered significantly more noteworthy than the other.

The fact that it's controversial already means that it's "different" enough to be noteworthy.

EDIT: neglected this:

I haven't "chosen" that position, that's just the one I've always had. Besides, you'll find quite a lot of people have argued against it throughout this thread, which is why I had to write so many posts about it and link the damn interview so much.

whether or not you've been consistent on it doesn't really matter though...?

we're all still arguing something entirely different than what the OP was about

So you said he "was putting words in [FFM's] mouth", then changed that to FFM "being led by the nose" when you found you were wrong? Is that what they call 'shifting the goalposts'?

yup. it totally is.

To be honest, that's just a subcategory in the same way that SRPGs aren't the same as regular JRPGs. If I alter some mechanics of Fire Emblem, like, say, making it real time, it isn't a Turn Based (look, more subcategorisation!) Strategy Role Playing Game anymore is it? However if I add some porn in there, it's still a Strategy Role Playing Game, it just happens to also have the additional factor of being a Pornographic Strategy Role Playing Game.

Talking about what it is "primarily" is an odd objection though. God of War is still an action game (albiet a terrible one) despite the fact there's full frontal nudity and sex in it. Additionally, the mode is optional.

the difference is cultural context, and that one of them is considered significantly more noteworthy than the other.

The fact that it's controversial already means that it's "different" enough to be noteworthy.

EDIT: neglected this:

I haven't "chosen" that position, that's just the one I've always had. Besides, you'll find quite a lot of people have argued against it throughout this thread, which is why I had to write so many posts about it and link the damn interview so much.

whether or not you've been consistent on it doesn't really matter though...?

we're all still arguing something entirely different than what the OP was about

So you said he "was putting words in [FFM's] mouth", then changed that to FFM "being led by the nose" when you found you were wrong? Is that what they call 'shifting the goalposts'?

yup. it totally is.

EDIT2: also I'm going to bed. this is turning into another argument about details when we all agree on the main points, and honestly isn't interesting enough to be a good reason not to sleep at this time of night.

or at the very least if I waste my time being awake it won't be arguing for the sake of arguing, I'm too tired to find that stimulating.

I'll try to respond to things in the morning if the thread hasn't completely moved on, but don't expect anything anytime soon.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Euklyd

[Topazd]

Well, it might seem like the current conversation is stretching a bit far, but it still resides in the realm of the question "Where do you draw the line on what mechanics to omit/add?" which in turn is paramount to the primary arguments against Casual, so I don't think we're entirely OT yet.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Topazd255

[Magical Glace]

This is obviously because FE12 didn't leave Japan.

Just because these arguments are getting really circular and annoying, I want to ask to be sure: are the people opposed to Casual mode opposed to it completely, or would it be okay under certain conditions such as 1) having incentives to play Classic such as more characters, chapters, etc., or 2) restricting it to the easiest game difficulty?

I'm fine with either of those solutions!

*skips page 19*

Um.

I'm not even going to ask how porn came into this discussion.

[Baldrick]

But Euklyd, my vote will remain on you until I'm satisfied with your response

In Awakening, your player avatar can marry and have children with a character that resembles a prepubscent child, who dresses in a provocative manner. Is that noteworthy? Is Awakening less of a SRPG because Nowi exists and can be paired with Robin?

I consider Casual Mode to be a more substantial change, because it very slightly affects the gameplay. I guess at this point, having both established our positions, we spend 5 pages going around in circles and debating strawmen rather than each other?

[saifors]

I tried out casual normal, I went into the option menu, clicked on auto and that's how I beat casual mode in just a few hours.

So no, it makes the game so ridiculously easy that it's actually boring.

[Sentacotus]

I tried out casual normal, I went into the option menu, clicked on auto and that's how I beat casual mode in just a few hours.

So no, it makes the game so ridiculously easy that it's actually boring.

Then there is always the option to select classic and up the difficulty right from the get go.

[Magical Glace]

I tried out casual normal, I went into the option menu, clicked on auto and that's how I beat casual mode in just a few hours.

So no, it makes the game so ridiculously easy that it's actually boring.

Now try the same thing on Casual/Lunatic+ and tell me how it goes

[saifors]

Heck on Hard classic I started doing the same around chapter 14 and didn't actually have to do much of manual work until the endgame, no one died, around chapter 20 or so I just was going auto mode and mash start only on the Endgame did I have to finally do something manually, so yeah even without it it's still pretty easy (granted that the difficulty on hard mode starts to quickly fall apart once you reach chapter 6 more or less).

Haven't unlocked lunatic+ yet I'll get to it once I stop missing 80%s and the enemies stop hitting 40%s and critting on 9% in my lunatic run.

But that out of the way, it feels like you're getting an incredibly watered down experience, there's no risk or anything and therefore barely any excitement, that aside most people who play on casual aren't going to play Lunatic/Lunatic+ on casual, it's just too easy to just play through Normal casual and not even get half of the experience, where's the fun in that? In my opinion the only thing that casual mode causes is that people who are unsure about their skill will not try anything else because they think of anything harder as "too hard" or for "hardcore players"/"veterans".

Then again that's just my opinion, you have your opinion and everyone else has their own opinion and all we're just doing is putting it out there on the internet because that's just what we do.

[Sentacotus]

Heck on Hard classic I started doing the same around chapter 14 and didn't actually have to do much of manual work until the endgame, no one died, around chapter 20 or so I just was going auto mode and mash start only on the Endgame did I have to finally do something manually, so yeah even without it it's still pretty easy (granted that the difficulty on hard mode starts to quickly fall apart once you reach chapter 6 more or less).

Haven't unlocked lunatic+ yet I'll get to it once I stop missing 80%s and the enemies stop hitting 40%s and critting on 9% in my lunatic run.

But that out of the way, it feels like you're getting an incredibly watered down experience, there's no risk or anything and therefore barely any excitement, that aside most people who play on casual aren't going to play Lunatic/Lunatic+ on casual, it's just too easy to just play through Normal casual and not even get half of the experience, where's the fun in that? In my opinion the only thing that casual mode causes is that people who are unsure about their skill will not try anything else because they think of anything harder as "too hard" or for "hardcore players"/"veterans".

Then again that's just my opinion, you have your opinion and everyone else has their own opinion and all we're just doing is putting it out there on the internet because that's just what we do.

Yeah I think that's why I think its there. Mostly is for the people who are new to the series and don't want to be an intimidated by an otherwise good game. I mean now in days its something when the first mode says normal and the next one up is hard and the next is called lunatic. And hey its at least good to see you're open to other's opinions.

[Ownagepuffs]

I have an answer to those asking where to draw the line.

Perma death is that line. Given how successful casual mode was at bringing people in, it shows that FE has little to gain by removing other features in a casual mode. Let's not forget FE's most prominent entry barrier was perma death. Perma death put off far more people than limited item uses or lack of a lewd mode.

I do dislike that casual mode takes away a fundamental part of FE, and I think a better way to be more accessible is simply allow mid battle saves. That greatly eliminates the stress of perma death while still making you go "fuck!" if someone dies. RD did it best.

[feplus]

Given how successful casual mode was at bringing people in,

How successful was Casual Mode in bringing people in?

[Ownagepuffs]

Awakening as a whole had a lot of things that drew people in. But the addition of casual mode relieved one of the main entry barriers for the series.

It's incorrect to say that Casual mode alone brought people in, but it is a pretty significant addition. My best friend bought FE13 solely because of casual mode and I'm willing to bet he wasn't the only one. FE12 had it, but it never left Japan.

[feplus]

I ask because while we get plenty of anecdotal evidence about how important Casual Mode was to bringing in new players, I suspect the unprecedented marketing budget, flashy animations, and aggressive media push were much more significant. Awakening sold, what, 600K copies in the United States? What percentage of those sales is attributable to Casual? 10%? 20%?

[Faye]

I don't feel like reading through 19 or so pages, so I'll just say yes, I want Casual Mode to return. 8U The last thing I want is for my favorite unit to die to a bullshit crit, forcing me to restart the ENTIRE chapter, even though my strategy had been working until Lady Luck was like "here, let me ruin your day". Causal Mode takes away all the pressure, allowing me to enjoy the game without screaming to the heavens due to unlucky circumstances getting my units killed.

[eclipse]

Even on Casual I honestly don't think FE is a good game to relax from

It can be quite relaxing - once you've got the general parameters down-pat, you can do things like pair Chrom with Avatar on Normal, and watch the fireworks.

Like, what can we change and what can't we change? Is everything up for being changed?

I'm up for it. I want to see what works, what doesn't, and how I can make the most out of what I got. Chances are, the game itself is playtested before going out of the door, and that there's a target audience (perhaps it's defined by age/gender/related games, but rest assured that the "hardcore" fanbase is the minority. . .like most of the people in this topic, no matter where they stand on this issue). If the testing reveals that some feature-or-other will piss off the target audience, it'll most likely be removed. I'm willing to have faith in IS' decisions - if I find that my faith was misplaced, I'll go elsewhere.

Yeah sure, I've said as such repeatedly. To be pragmatic, we have to make concessions. I'm mostly just discussing the principle of whether it should have even existed.

This is why you are cool.

Its things like this that make you unfit to argue either point in this thread.

We're arguing about a theoretical exclusion of a video game mode in a franchise that isn't the most well-known. . .chill.

The thing about FE12 is just that almost no-one played Casual in that game (or if they did, they are a very non-vocal minority) and therefore the discussion regarding the mode rarely delves there. The same points apply there, though.

EDIT Regarding Euklyd's notion, the discussion has basically derailed all the time throughout its course. It isn't exactly a recent trend, haha. That is bound to happen when people have such strong opinions about the subject matter.

The game never left Japan, so the only ones who played it were the people who imported/emulated it. Thus, the sample size will be much smaller.

I think I had the same stance then as I did now - cool beans for adding it, but probably not for me (though FE13's Lunatic helped to change my mind a bit).

Well, it might seem like the current conversation is stretching a bit far, but it still resides in the realm of the question "Where do you draw the line on what mechanics to omit/add?" which in turn is paramount to the primary arguments against Casual, so I don't think we're entirely OT yet.

- Is it going to fuck with the ESRB rating?

- Will it change the genre?

- Am I going to have to buy a new game system for this?

- Will I be able to play this without getting extremely sick?

That's about as much damns as I give. Imagine if FE suddenly went sci-fi, but kept the same basic mechanics (weapon triangle, damage calculations, etc.) - that would've been a better example IMO.

But that out of the way, it feels like you're getting an incredibly watered down experience, there's no risk or anything and therefore barely any excitement, that aside most people who play on casual aren't going to play Lunatic/Lunatic+ on casual, it's just too easy to just play through Normal casual and not even get half of the experience, where's the fun in that? In my opinion the only thing that casual mode causes is that people who are unsure about their skill will not try anything else because they think of anything harder as "too hard" or for "hardcore players"/"veterans".

I can name three people in this topic who claimed to have played Lunatic/Casual - it's a great way to keep going despite having a unit or three fall (or in the case of one my Risen skirmishes, half my team).

I ask because while we get plenty of anecdotal evidence about how important Casual Mode was to bringing in new players, I suspect the unprecedented marketing budget, flashy animations, and aggressive media push were much more significant. Awakening sold, what, 600K copies in the United States? What percentage of those sales is attributable to Casual? 10%? 20%?

Obviously, it brought in at least one sale - and to a company that's considering the game it's selling to be its possible swan song, that's better than nothing.

[shadowofchaos]

Even on Casual I honestly don't think FE is a good game to relax from

Animal Crossing and similar games are better for that.

That's kind of... your opinion?

I can name at least 7 people who love relaxing in Lunatic/Casual more than Animal Crossing.

Yes, I get the fact that everyone in this thread are only voicing opinions because they love FE.

But I'm just saddened that this just divided the community. With vocal opinions on both sides, even from me.

Also, on the person who tried Normal/Casual and said it was a joke. Yes it is, for veterans.

I feel like the Casual white knight because I know people that play FE and get intimidated by the community for their skill level.

So, while you think you are evaluating properly the value of Casual or lack thereof (especially the one voicing doubts of newcomers being brought into fire emblem) please recall that there were IGN or wherever people putting a log of their dead on Normal Classic. And it wasn't a small list. Most people who try FE for the first time suck at it in ways you would think impossible.

Who speaks for the minority that would never even think of saying that they like Casual, over you evaluating their way of playing the game?

I've had people tell me that they feel like a disgrace whenever they play Normal Casual, simply because the community has ingrained into them that Casual mode isn't true FE. And quit, letting the game gather dust. Is that the reputation you want?

On the other hand, I've had friends who go and try Normal Classic. One because they experienced casual and are like "Hey, I've got this."

Then they go Hard/Casual. And then they stopped saying "I got my money's worth."

Who here will praise him? And who here will focus on him stopping before he got to Hard/Classic?

Regardless, we have someone that is looking forward to FE14 and willing to try the older games as he gains confidence still a little daunted by lack of Casual. And he still is terrified at being looked down upon here because he started with Casual.

Edited February 17, 2015 by shadowofchaos

[Skynstein]

"Normal/Casual is a joke" of course it is, it's the fucking easiest mode in the game. It's almost like Serious Sam Tourist mode. Try autobotting Lunatic/Casual and come back here.

Casual has the huge benefit of not erasing characters in Xenologues. It's hilarious and ridiculous that you can lose characters forever in something like EXP Growth, for example.

I'd add mid-battle saves to Classic, too. It's no more savescumming than restarting the chapter from scratch. You only lose less progress when someone dies. And, if you're really bothered that mid-battle saves are bad for your l33t mentality, then have your Iron Man mode like in XCOM. Everyone is happy.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Cerberus87

[feplus]

IIRC, Awakening needed to reach global sales of 250K for it to be considered successful, i.e. inspiring confidence for the development of future Fire Emblem titles. As Awakening sold well over a million copies, it's quite possible, even likely, that the inclusion of Casual Mode did not save the series from cancellation.

[Baldrick]

@soc: I don't want new fans to be intimidated by veterans' skill level, I want them to reach it. I think that unlimited battle saves in place of Casual Mode would help facilitate that improvement, by forcing players to hone their skills to win.

I'm not suggesting that's what they should do (if nothing else, I'm fairly sure IS don't hate money), it's just a "wouldn't it be nice" hypothetical for me.