Quickhammer Mafia - Game Over

[Refakitty³]

Noted, but like, dondont's conviction isn't much better than Sanaki's, honestly.

Speaking of which, another interesting thing about dondont which I forgot to point out is that his votes today aren't very good.

The vote on Noerin seems like an attempt at a "gotcha", as in, like, dondont is attempting to put Noerin in a situation where she'll make herself look bad. If I were a townie and wanted to try this gambit, I would at least try it on somebody who already looked kind of scummy to me, but dondont doesn't really differentiate between Sanaki, Noerin and Phantom of the Opera. Why the random choice?

Supreme Intelligence clearly explains why he's voting Noerin here, so if anything, I think that dondont's vote on Supreme Intelligence is like, like, an attempt to stall for more content to fake cases on while waiting for Supreme Intelligence to reiterate his post.

Basically, a votepark.

It's odd how he ignores Sanaki in the middle of all of this, too.

I would really like to be lynching dondont right now.

[Sham]

Sanaki's post #58 enforces my point about them being superficial. I think it is very easy for someone to quickhammer in a game with very few players, especially because SF Mafia is more trigger happy than most members of the Burning Legion could attest to. I find it very plausible that dondont didn't (lol) quickhammer intentionally. I also doubt scum would like to bring that much attention into themselves too early.

If you don't find him scu, then why vote him? You could, you know, just ask a question. That's all it takes. A vote makes it seem as if you're scumhunting (which you have done very superficially not once, but twice, with the dondont vote accounted).

I'll admit, this is the first time I've been accused of scumhunting when I shouldn't be in a Mafia game. Unless the definition of scumhunting has changed since I used to play, because I remember when we used to make cases out of people not scumhunting good/hard enough.

Votes apply pressure, which helps get people to answer your questions. However, I don't have much experience playing in games this small: Should I be a bit less cavalier with my vote here?

Those are bad reasons for finding someone scummy. Overreacting is more a personal thing than an alignment thing. A townie may feel more frustration from being pressed than scum, IIRC Mancer does this. Also, I don't know why you read A True Friend's response as an overreaction.

Their response and vote on Wada seemed more than was necessary considering that Wada didn't seem to be making a particularly pressing case against them. Friend's wave of posts after that did not help deter my first impression. In my experience (PEMN I know, but this isn't tiering) overreactions are typically the refuge of scum trying to ensure early suspicion can't be brought up against them later. You see it less in Town because they know they're not going to get 'caught' for being suspicious early on, so they typically don't react as much until they have more votes on them.

The rest of Jaraxxus' content isn't particularly inspiring. His comments about RVS activity do no more than state the obvious, the 2hu bit is just fluff because they're dead and Town, and the sentence about my activity Day One is beating a dead horse at this point. His joke vote on Wada only further enforces the impression that he's trying to skate without contributing much of anything new. Am I the only one getting this impression?

I don't like how Wada has been tunneling on dondont, but since I've had my vote on dondont this whole phase also I guess I shouldn't be talking. Phantom seems pretty town to me, but he hasn't done a whole lot either.

[Sham]

I see you, Intelligence. Don't be shy, we don't bite.

[Marisa Kirisame]

@Noerin: My problem with your vote is that Sanaki isn't really misrepresenting anything at all. Here's #26: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=52063&p=3599967

They voted A True Friend for outright not contributing in the thread and stating that, in addition to finding them to be over reacting to a vote. Its true that ATF's behavior could be considered as that from either alignment in vacuum, but in that particular context, it would be quite hard to argue their behavior as that coming from a townie. Thus, I feel like you're nitpicking their vote in particular since there's less explanation to it. This looks scummy in my eyes.

My problem is, then, that you didn't pick on dondont's vote on ATF either. Why so? Their vote had even less explanation than Sanaki's. Also what of Wadatsumi? Was their stance on ATF reasonable? Their reasons for voting ATF were very similar to Sanaki's, except they had more posts of shorter sizes.

@Sanaki: I think you would have been better off using your vote on people who you actually find scummy instead of, say, wasting it on those who you do not understand. It isn't very productive as far as scumhunting goes and considering you were excited to vote ATF over not being productive in RVS, I expect much more from you. If you are town, that is.

@dondont: See above for the elaboration. On another note, maybe you should, you know, start making sense. And maybe tell us who you think is most likely scum and why, instead of disagreeing with many posts and arguing but not going anywhere with them. This isn't Serious Discussion^TM where we argue over nothing.

[Rain Nijika]

Sanaki, my words are spoken in the context of the day rather than the isolated incident. It seemed rather unusual that you joined a growing wagon which ended flipping town, although time is not the kindest of mistresses. My issue was the lack of will behind the vote and considering the wagon, it does not portray you in a favorable light.

However, I do appreciate the explanation, although it does not dispel the issues I hold. The answers seem rather retrospective and do not answer the question. Surely if one wished to push, they would make more use of it?

The words of dondont are a mystery to my eyes. This may be due to his nature as the mafia doppelganger of his charming forum counterpart, but I cannot see how his tune is decisively that of the town or the scum. However, the tone and attitude I feel are currently a mask to avoid direct contribution, the song of dondon is not a pleasant one, nor does it inspire thought.

Supreme Intelligence carries a careful melody, although my eyes do not seem to follow his presence. The introduction of Jaraxxus bodes well for this game, I feel that his sentiments are fair and progressive. My eyes are still on Sanaki although I do not favour the presence of dondont strongly. His hammer may appear as somewhat null, but his masquerade of content does not fool me.

this post is pretty much a pile of fluff, with the thinnest of reads aimed at little bar what seems to be a townlead on jaraxxus and a scumlean on sanaki. i think you and many others are forgetting that our last 72 hour phase was cut short by roughly 80%, and we're not even a third through this phase. do you have a scumread on me, or a nullread? the same goes for supreme intelligence

Noted, but like, dondont's conviction isn't much better than Sanaki's, honestly.

Speaking of which, another interesting thing about dondont which I forgot to point out is that his votes today aren't very good.

The vote on Noerin seems like an attempt at a "gotcha", as in, like, dondont is attempting to put Noerin in a situation where she'll make herself look bad. If I were a townie and wanted to try this gambit, I would at least try it on somebody who already looked kind of scummy to me, but dondont doesn't really differentiate between Sanaki, Noerin and Phantom of the Opera. Why the random choice?

Supreme Intelligence clearly explains why he's voting Noerin here, so if anything, I think that dondont's vote on Supreme Intelligence is like, like, an attempt to stall for more content to fake cases on while waiting for Supreme Intelligence to reiterate his post.

Basically, a votepark.

I'd really like to correct you here, and explain that , but i'll just make this short and sweet. since you're insistence on me being scum is through whatever logic you're trying to simply throw in my face, i'll provide some evidence for an actual lynch today, rather than spend the first half of the phase looking for your partner.

##unvote supreme intelligence

##vote wadatsumi

unless my night results lie to me, i've come across knowledge that presents wadatsumi as 1-shot rolecop. if i needed to point my finger elsewhere based on context and contribution at this very moment, i'd be pointing it towards jaraxxus for contributing little more than agreement with cases against sanaki, and not making the effort to place a vote out anywhere else to garner any use; furthermore, phantom of the opera is providing content at a questionable rate, when there is clearly much to be discussed

[Marisa Kirisame]

Interesting

##Unvote ##Vote: Wadatsumi

This cannot go wrong in any way whatsoever. Worst case scenario is going into D3 at 3/2 with a confirmed mafia. So we better be prepared for D4 2/1 if things go wrong.

[Refakitty³]

Wow.

I was gonna wait longer before revealing it, but I guess dondont picked up on my crumb, so, I guess my hand is forced.

I'm the actual rolecop. I scanned dondont last night.

If it isn't obvious, he is the mafia rolecop.

If you need reason why you should believe me over him, consider that he had a guilty on me and openly said he thought didn't think I was scum. Until this sudden 180, that is.

Contrast this with how I've actively been prodding people for opinions on dondont, so that we have associative reads to work off once he flips scum.

Even if a cop didn't want to out themselves, shouldn't their actions still match their results on some level? Because dondont's don't.

Like, it's embarassingly obvious his play doesn't match up with his claim here.

[Sham]

Well, that happened.

Going to ##Unvote to try and avoid another hammer while I reread and decide who's more legit.

[Refakitty³]

Wow.

Were you the rolecop?

Also, I should probably, like, direct town's attention toward this post where I specifically tried to make myself not sound like the rolecop, so that I would survive the night.

There's no real reason for me to ask A True Friend this as Vanilla Town.

In any case, girls are preparing a reads post.

Well, no they aren't, because 2hu porn star is dead. dondont shot her. But please watch warmly until this is finished anyway.

[Rain Nijika]

i didn't think you were scum, i knew you were scum. evidently, you did not look that hard into my statement. i am also not limited by shots, so there is no need for me to claim given the following:

• no benefit to aimlessly throwing about clues towards my role for others to spot
• no reason to, at this point, drop information left and right on the chance that today ends early again with mafia being able to ascertain my role and town being nonethewiser
• there still being reason for me to conceal my role
• anybody could have done the same clue dropping to throw mafia down a misleading trail, so your crumb is only as valid as your tunnelvision

not to mention that you've done little besides ask people to vote for me, comment on me, turbo me, all without giving reason to follow logic before pursuing a push to vote. the fact is, your play has been pretty embarassing for what you are arguing to be a town cop

[Refakitty³]

It's in town's best interest to get scum lynched, then find their partner based on the interactions from that lynch.

If anything, dondont's content pushed me to the side.

Like, if he was a town cop with a guilty on me, then there would be a drought of interactions with me after I flipped scum.

My approach to a guilty objectively helps the town more.

Furthermore, it's in a town investigative role's best interests to get their target lynched without claiming.

I was trying my hardest to do this. dondont didn't so much as even, like, make a case against me.

Also, trying to argue my breadcrumb is invalid is pretty hilarious.

I said that I scanned dondont, and that he was scum. It doesn't get much more clear-cut than that.

Meanwhile, dondont has nothing, except claiming he didn't think I was scum.

And, like, if you know somebody is scum, you think they are scum at the same time. Trying to twist his own words doesn't change their original meaning.

What's more likely is that dondont scanned me as a Mafia 1-Shot Rolecop, made that post knowing he couldn't get me lynched, then changed his story once he realized I scanned him and that it was him or me.

Let's not forget that dondont's actual content has actually been pretty scummy as well.

[Marisa Kirisame]

After much deliberation, I can't shake the feeling that there's some scum plan over here. The problem is, at D4 2/1 there's definitely going to be a 1v1 between the roleblockers, at which point, town is in a worse position. Of course, if the RB was NK'd then it wouldn't happen but we're still in a bad position, and unfortunately this is because of the foolish quickhammer that we had last phase.

dondont's behavior D2 makes sense for a town rolecop in the sense that, the setup suggests that being careless with claiming is costly, especially when you're town. Role discussion is absolutely pointless. dondont trying to gather reads by seeing other players' reactions and posts before outing themselves is definitely townie in this context. However, claiming a scan on 'scum!Wadatsumi' could be part of a high risk- high reward plan by the scumteam.

I picked up Wadatsumi's crumb earlier myself, but wasn't sure of what alignment they were. The way they've handled their crumb, results and claim doesn't bode well, although I did not have any problems with them D1. The tunnel on dondont makes sense... but I think they could've done much more with the info in their hand.

[Refakitty³]

dondont didn't try to get any reads or reactions relevant to the situation at hand, though, which was that I would've been scum to him.

Like, how Noerin reacts to a prod vote isn't going to matter as much on D3 compared to her read on me.

But which one did dondont try to squeeze out of her?

[Rain Nijika]

unlike you, i did not feel the necessity to fill the majority of my posts with "vote dondont he's scum". the distinct tunnel vision you portrayed did little to validate your case in that regard, since it still appears as though all you're doing is flinging mud towards my face. i have no reason to spend the first half of a day needlessly pointing my finger at you with the thickest of magnifying glasses when there is a more appropriate time to do so

as i said, there is no reason to clutter every single post of yours with clues pointing towards one thing or another when it clearly impacts the message you're trying to present. where you spent easily half of your time coming up with witty one-liners for persuasion, i applied pressure to others with my word and my vote. i really don't see how you can argue yourself as town when you've done little to "scumhunt" today aside from park your vote on the one thing you hope to earn your free ride to retirement with. if you intended to stick around long term, you should have tried to apply some discretion to your play. if you are cop with no limit to night actions, and were to flip, you know that town would dissect every one of your posts in this tiny game to figure out who you scanned. shoving it down everyone's throat offers no benefit to town. it clutters the thread with unnecessary fluff, gives yourself away far too easily, and draws out situations like this that put others in danger regardless.

town was given a role cop with no limit to their shots, yet you're behaving like the one-shot cop you happen to be

[Sham]

##Vote: Wadatsumi

Hindsight being 20/20 as it is, I can see how dondont's "If only I thought you were scum" was a crumb for him having scaned Wada last night, although not as obvious as Wada's crumb (which came later besides). Wada's tunneling seems more in line with how a one-shot Cop would behave, whereas a multiple-shot Cop would probably be proactive in finding other players worth scanning. Wada's last point about dondont's method of questioning Noerin seems to be stretch as well.

Most importantly however, if dondont was the scum!Cop and picked up Wada's crumb, why risk losing a 1v1 when he can just shoot Wada tonight?

[Refakitty³]

Dude. Unvote.

[Refakitty³]

Like, that's L-1 I haven't even made my post yet.

Dude.

[Sham]

Wada's tunneling seems more in line with how a one-shot Cop would behave, whereas a multiple-shot Cop would probably be more proactive in finding other players worth scanning.

Whoops, forgot the word more there.

[Refakitty³]

Most importantly however, if dondont was the scum!Cop and picked up Wada's crumb, why risk losing a 1v1 when he can just shoot Wada tonight?

Dude.

You realize that if we lynch dondont today, his buddy, like, has to avoid a roleblock and two mislynches to win the game?

Scum is in a much much better position if town wastes their lynch on their rolecop today.

[Sham]

Dude.

You realize that if we lynch dondont today, his buddy, like, has to avoid a roleblock and two mislynches to win the game?

Scum is in a much much better position if town wastes their lynch on their rolecop today.

If dondont was in any danger of being lynched that logic would work, but aside from the two of us he hasn't exactly been under a ton of pressure.

[Refakitty³]

Also, the speculation about me playing more like a 1-shot rolecop is arbitrary and bad, since there's no 1-shot town cop in this set-up.

But I'm not playing like a 1-shot scum rolecop. I'm just playing like a town rolecop, 1-shot or otherwise.

I would have had more scan targets for Night 2 after people had all given their opinion on dondont, because then there would be associative reads.

I can't stress enough how much a theoretical town dondont wouldn't have cared about the game state after outing his guilty. Town Wadatsumi would have.

I should also point out that dondont claiming not to think I'm scum isn't a crumb. It's a town read he had to backpedal on.

My breadcrumb is much clearer.

Anyway, I was planning to do this when claiming, so let's look at the other players with dondont's alignment in mind.

Jaraxxus: I dunno about this dude.

At first I thought he was town, but I think Sanaki's points here are pretty valid.

Also, maybe it's just me, but it makes me kind of uneasy how he stopped responding to me when I made my crumb, only for dondont to fakeclaim soon after. I would like Jaraxxus' explanation for this.

Still, I can't shake off the feeling he's too motivated to be scum.

Would consider lynching.

Noerin: I can't seem to get a strong read on Noerin. She posts a bunch of words that are basically OK.

But it feels to me that dondont was like, trying to set her up to look bad with that prod vote here.

Not very interested in lynching this dudette.

Phantom of the Opera: This dude is pretty scummy. Like, in Phantom post here, he mentions dondont, but tip-toes around saying anything meaningful about him.

When Phantom posts again here, he acts like dondont is kind of scummy, but doesn't commit to anything, which is, like, really convenient if the two are scum.

Both of his posts end in small comments about other players which pad out the post, but, like, don't actually mean anything. I don't like this.

Also, it's pretty shifty how dondont gets irritated at me for calling him out as a lurker here.

Would lynch.

Sanaki: Sanaki is pretty town I also love signing up for anonymafia and softclaming my identity in every post.

Really though, I like this dude. I think there's a sense of honesty in his posts which he wouldn't have as scum, even though he lacks conviction.

In fact, the lack of conviction can easily be explained by his apparent rustiness.

I also doubt he would be, like, drawing attention to dondont with a potentially hypocritical case about not checking the votals if the two players were buddies.

The way dondont asks for elaboration on my ED1 case on Sanaki (#36) but, like, doesn't try to get involved with it is like dondont wanted Sanaki to be a mislynch, but didn't want to be the one pushing it.

Wouldn't lynch.

Supreme Intelligence: Don't really like this dude anymore.

His post here was reasonable, but, like, if he really thought my early play was townie (#60) and picked up on my crumb (#86), I would think he would have, like, raised more points in my favor instead of just going along with dondont immediately.

Also, in #86, he doesn't really give good reasons for why I supposedly handled my claim poorly, and doesn't explain what more I could have done with the info in my hand.

Would lynch.

Personally, I would lynch dondont, roleblock Jaraxxus, then go Phantom -> Supreme Intelligence.

But that's just me.

Of course, if the 1-shot roleblocker claims after dondont flips scum, we have at least one more clear.

[Refakitty³]

If dondont was in any danger of being lynched that logic would work, but aside from the two of us he hasn't exactly been under a ton of pressure.

Dude. He was going to be in danger of being lynched once I claimed.

Read my post here.

[Refakitty³]

I should also note that my crumb to Jaraxxus was made with, like, the expectation the player would pick up on it and probably sheep me.

Reminder that dondont's handling of his "guilty" is objectively worse for the town than mine.

[Refakitty³]

In any case, you should really unvote.

Like, if one if Noerin or Jaraxxus is the remaining scum, they can quickhammer me and put scum in a very strong position.

And given how people are handling dondont, I don't have faith anybody would actually call them out on it.

I mean, with town gone today instead of scum, the Town 1-Shot Roleblcoker is a lot less powerful. Furthemore, town would be in LYLO after lynching dondont, as oppose to thw two mislynches and a roleblock they'd have after lynching him today.

This is also why dondont would need to get me lynched after picking up on my crumb.

Remember, he probably really did scan me last night.

[Sham]

I would unvote, but I'm going to be logging off here soon and I want to have a vote on someone before I do.

However, if Noerin or Jaraxxus do quick-hammer you and you flip Town, we basically have both confirmed scum, and just need to perform the motions to win.