The Reason for the Problems With Awakening

[Saladus]

Walhart is not the sort of person that can be negotiated with, as seen very well fighting him. He's called the Conqueror for a reason. Given how in Port Ferox the Valmese start killing civilians it's pretty obvious they're out for blood.

Yen'fay and other Valmese rulers were brought into the fold. And Walhart was trying to stop the Grimleal. If Chrom actually bothered to order a proper investigation before charging into Valm, he might have knew more of the Valmese Empire.

Chrom pushed Ylisse into a war without even trying to negotiate. He showed that no, he doesn't actually follow sister's words.

In a better written Awakening, Chrom's blatant disregard for his sister's words for a path his father would have taken would be thoroughly called out.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Saladus

[Knusperkeks]

You people need to read posts. Multiple people - me included - have put forth the fact that Walhart has a well known reputation preceding him.

He doesn't negotiate, he conquers. That's precisely why he is called the Conqueror. Walhart has been busy with the whole western continent. After he vanquised all his foes in the west, he started focussing the east.

Trying to negotiate with the Valmese Empire under Walhart is as futile as trying to negotiate with the Mongol Empire during the 13th and 14th century.

[Saladus]

You people need to read posts. Multiple people - me included - have put forth the fact that Walhart has a well known reputation preceding him.

He doesn't negotiate, he conquers. That's precisely why he is called the Conqueror. Walhart has been busy with the whole western continent. After he vanquised all his foes in the west, he started focussing the east.

Trying to negotiate with the Valmese Empire under Walhart is as futile as trying to negotiate with the Mongol Empire during the 13th and 14th century.

Except that there are assorted examples of negotiations with the Mongols. In particular, there were lords in Armenia who did successfully negotiate with Mongols. The Mongols were not exceptionally cruel, at least not institutionally.

And again, Yen'fay along with other Valmese rulers.

I suggest you stop bringing up examples from Earth to excuse Awakening's writing.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Saladus

[Knusperkeks]

Except that there assorted examples of negotiations with the Mongols. In particular, there were lords in Armenia who did successfully negotiate with Mongols.

But these successful negotiations are rare expetions which prove the rule. Look at the world map at the beginning of the 13th century. Now look at the world map near the end of the 13th century. Do you truly believe they got all their territory by negotiationg? Yeah, me neither.

And again, Yen'fay along with other Valmese rulers.

Walhart made Yen'fai and the other Valmese rulers his bitches, they had absolutely no choice in the regard.

Yen'fay had reasons of his own for sticking with Walhart.

Reasons which would never bend to some paltry attempt at negotiating peace with a warmonger.

Reasons which he didn't utter until his final breath. It was kill or be killed.

I suggest you stop bringing up examples from Earth to excuse Awakening's writing.

I suggest you stop ignoring key elements of Awakening's writing while criticizing Awakening's writing.

Seriously, go play the game again and read the dialogue.

[KMT4ever]

Except that there are assorted examples of negotiations with the Mongols. In particular, there were lords in Armenia who did successfully negotiate with Mongols. The Mongols were not exceptionally cruel.

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but did those negotiations involve abject surrender? I would bet they did. Even if not, Armenia is so far from the Mongol homeland that conquering it would be troublesome

And again, Yen'fay along with other Valmese rulers.

They were coerced into it, as Excellus made painfully obvious.

I suggest you stop bringing up examples from Earth to excuse Awakening's writing.

Why not? If it happens often in real life it makes more sense in fiction.

You people need to read posts. Multiple people - me included - have put forth the fact that Walhart has a well known reputation preceding him.

He doesn't negotiate, he conquers. That's precisely why he is called the Conqueror. Walhart has been busy with the whole western continent. After he vanquised all his foes in the west, he started focussing the east.

Exactly. If you fight Walhart with Chrom he explicitly says that he's a conqueror by nature. Chapter 20 is called "The Sword or the Knee" for a reason. Survival of the fittest. Even if his motivation is to stop Grima the fact that he doesn't try to negotiate with Ylisse gives Chrom the choice between fighting and surrendering.

[Constable Reggie]

I find it humorous that having a comic relief character exposit "Trust me guys, this Walhart is a really bad dude" is apparently sufficient motivation to initiate a full-out war with another nation.

I may rag on Sword of Seals for being the worst FE game, but I at least distinctly recall it at least showing Zephiel/Bern doing bad things in order to sufficiently motivate your group (and by extension, you) to fight them.

Good stories aren't accomplished by having mere exposition entirely dictate motivation. This is why the Valm arc fails to be one.

[Saladus]

But these successful negotiations are rare expetions which prove the rule. Look at the world map at the beginning of the 13th century. Now look at the world map near the end of the 13th century. Do you truly believe they got all their territory by negotiationg? Yeah, me neither.

The Mongols were not Nazi Germany. Temüjin himself only ordered his empire to go to war against the Khwarezmian Empire after its Shah had a group of ambassadors either beheaded or shaved.

Again, the Mongols were not exceptionally cruel. At least, not institutionally.

Walhart made Yen'fai and the other Valmese rulers his bitches, they had absolutely no choice in the regard.

So, there were agreements.

Anyway, you haven't addressed Chrom disregarding his sister's words.

Yen'fay had reasons of his own for sticking with Walhart.

Reasons which would never bend to some paltry attempt at negotiating peace with a warmonger.

Reasons which he didn't utter until his final breath. It was kill or be killed.

Yen'fay was a screwup who died a screwup. Honestly, I'm sure Samuraiville is better off without him

I suggest you stop ignoring key elements of Awakening's writing while criticizing Awakening's writing.

Seriously, go play the game again and read the dialogue.

No. Doing that wouldn't fix Awakening's writing. It wouldn't fix how the game handles the Grimleal worshiping a humansmashing dragon, Robin, etc. Edited March 21, 2015 by Saladus

[eclipse]

Protip: Nested quoting sucks.

Walhart made Yen'fai and the other Valmese rulers his bitches, they had absolutely no choice in the regard.

So, there were agreements.

Anyway, you haven't addressed Chrom disregarding his sister's words.

Okay, but. . .

Yen'fay was a screwup who died a screwup. Honestly, I'm sure Samuraiville is better off without him

Hello there contradiction in the exact same quote.

Yen'fay's situation was either yield, or have people killed. Yet somehow he deserves to die because of this? Doesn't this mean that any negotiations from Chrom would end the same way? In other words, while there's plenty of problems with the Valm arc, Chrom going over there and kicking ass isn't one of them.

No. Doing that wouldn't fix Awakening's writing. It wouldn't fix how the game handles the Grimleal worshiping a humansmashing dragon, Robin, etc.

I seriously question why the hell you're even in this subforum, if the game is that distasteful to you.

[Saladus]

I was referring to Yen'fay being held down by Excellus using Say'ri. Had Yen'fay joined and stayed in the Valmese Empire on better written grounds (such as to share in its conquests), I might not have said he was a screwup.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Saladus

[eclipse]

And how would he do that? There's a marked difference between negotiations and surrender, and I doubt that Walhart would be willing to negotiate with someone who his subordinate could easily cow. Thus, the only way I can see Yen'fay joining Walhart would be through surrender - in other words, being nothing more than an ordinary soldier. It's not like Walhart's forces lacked competent fighters.

[Irysa]

I have to say that although I find the Valm arc rather uncompelling on the whole, some of the criticisms being thrown at the game by Saladus are going a bit far. The game doesn't need to nitty gritty in detail outline exactly why Chrom and his band do exactly what they do at every single point, basic inference is enough. However, it would have helped that inference significantly if the Valmese, and in particular, Walhart, had gotten some more screentime in the midsection of the game to make them less vague. Again, I defer back to Gangrel and Validar, they aren't outstanding antagonists or anything but they actually function as devices in the story that serve to drive forward the narrative. Walhart really doesn't.

[arvilino]

I find it humorous that having a comic relief character exposit "Trust me guys, this Walhart is a really bad dude" is apparently sufficient motivation to initiate a full-out war with another nation.

I'm unsure what you were reading to think what you do. but it's not the game's script. Chrom believes Virion and Cherche at the end of Chapter 11(that Valm is going to invade) but it's not until Chapter 12 when the Valmese is invading their continent and attacks civillians that Chrom decides to involve Ylisse in another war along with his true motivation(peace). This can be seen in the script for the start of Chapter 12:

Dalton

You dare board our ship, worm? I will not discuss terms with a peasant; I will issue demands to all! Citizens! Soldiers! Hear my words! The Conqueror himself, Emperor Walhart, claims dominion over these lands! You will grant your new emperor your ships! You will grant him all your provender! You will grant him your loyalty and your every possession! And you will surrender this land's greatest treasure, the Fire Emblem! Do this, and your lives will be spared. Resist, and your lives are forfeit! Now, kneel! And swear fealty to the mighty Valmese Empire!

Villager

B-but it you take all that we have, how are we to make our living? Without food and ships, people will starve! Would you have us all die?

Dalton

...You'll do for now.

Villager

Hrrgh!

>Dalton kills the villager

Chrom

These savages will never listen to reason. Everyone: prepare to engage!

Frederick

Milord, are you certain? Another war...

Chrom

I've had time to ponder Ylisse's place in the world, Frederick. ...And my own. We must stand against evil, in all its forms, or there can be no peace!

On that note considering the discussion about negotiations I also think Dalton makes the Valmese intentions/demands pretty clear if they were to come to an agreement with Walhart.

Edited March 21, 2015 by arvilino

[RJWalker]

My biggest problem with Awakening is how it treats the lore of previous games. When it is not desparately trying to fit them all into one timeline or make them all related in some way, it goes on contradicting them. Tiki being in Valm for no reason, the Earth Dragons being completely absent, the Fire Emblem doing everything except sealing dragons (it now awakens them for some goddamned reason), the Falchion apparently running on batteries and needs recharging to unlock its power (despite being nothing more than a glorified Wyrmslayer), the completely fucked up geography of Valm and even Archanea to an extent, Naga somehow being alive, Tiki never being introduced as Naga's daughter (seriously, you wouldn't even know that she's Naga's daughter if didn't play the older games), etc

The incompetent writers got so much lore wrong. Either they didn't know anything about their own goddamned franchise and got stuff wrong or they knew but didn't care enough to get it right.

And I don't know which is more insluting. This is no way to treat the origins of franchise, be it intentional or by mistake.

[RedEyedDrake]

Well, when it comes to the Fire Emblem being able to awaken dragons instead of sealing them, there is always the "logical" explanation. The Fire Emblem is also known as the "Binding Shield". And if it can inflict "bindings" it can remove them as well. A key that can lock a particular door can also unlock it, you know. Even during Marth's games, the Fire Emblem gave him the ability to open chests a.k.a. remove the "bindings"/"seal" upon them.

[arvilino]

My biggest problem with Awakening is how it treats the lore of previous games. When it is not desparately trying to fit them all into one timeline or make them all related in some way, it goes on contradicting them. Tiki being in Valm for no reason, the Earth Dragons being completely absent, the Fire Emblem doing everything except sealing dragons (it now awakens them for some goddamned reason), the Falchion apparently running on batteries and needs recharging to unlock its power (despite being nothing more than a glorified Wyrmslayer), the completely fucked up geography of Valm and even Archanea to an extent, Naga somehow being alive, Tiki never being introduced as Naga's daughter (seriously, you wouldn't even know that she's Naga's daughter if didn't play the older games), etc

The incompetent writers got so much lore wrong. Either they didn't know anything about their own goddamned franchise and got stuff wrong or they knew but didn't care enough to get it right.

And I don't know which is more insluting. This is no way to treat the origins of franchise, be it intentional or by mistake.

That's sounds a lot like the stereotypical comic nerd going "In issue #02 from 1980 this happens, yet in this recent #500 charcacter x does y which clearly anyone who knows anything about the series knows they wouldn't do".

Medeus turned into a Dark Dragon in 2 years, why couldn't the Earth Dragons disappear(unsealed and killed?) be gone 2000 years? Is it really unreasonable for Tiki be somewhere else other than the now non-existant Akeneia royal palace nearly 2 thousand of years after Marth's and everyone he know's death. She has one of the Fire Emblem gems which were intentionally kept apart from each other to prevent it's power being abused.

Additionally Fire Emblem be used for new things within the same canon? its power in the Akaneian setting even without the jewels was used for things(Such as it giving Cartas "guaranteed victory" over doluna, with people seemingly able to bestow additional powers onto the Fire Emblem such as Artemis' curse.) other than sealing the Earth Dragons in before the events of Shadow Dragon and the jewels are different in Awakening and both the Falchion and Fire Emblem were broken and re-forged before the events of Awakening and is known as the Flame Pedestal. Geography doesn't even need mentioning it's 2000 years later and none of the countries even have the same name.

You seem like you just can't accept IS doing anything other than something overbearingingly rigid to the exact details of the previous games, when giving the setting and time gap it should be expected that things change.

Edited March 21, 2015 by arvilino

[Knusperkeks]

No. Doing that wouldn't fix Awakening's writing. It wouldn't fix how the game handles the Grimleal worshiping a humansmashing dragon, Robin, etc.

It's religious fanaticism. Watch the news, people perform insane deeds in the name of religion (or at least they use religion as a pretense). But this is a whole new can of worms I don't want to open.

[RedEyedDrake]

@Arv: Medeus didn't turn into a shadow dragon "in two years", though. He was revived as a shadow dragon after his death as an earth dragon at the end of the War of Shadows but he was unquestionably dead between these two events. Also, the earth dragons weren't all killed either. The ones that appeared at the battle on the top floor of the Dragon's Table were all resealed so the vast majority of the ones who were sealed before the battle broke out still survived.

Edited March 21, 2015 by RedEyedDrake

[Delphi Sage]

Knusperkeks, just because stuff like this happened in real life doesn't mean we have no choice but to go along with it in high fantasy fiction.

And please use normal font. Whenever anyone uses a different font, It feels like they're just being holier-than-thou.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Delphi Sage

[Knusperkeks]

Knusperkeks, just because stuff like this happened in real life doesn't mean we have no choice but to go along with it in high fantasy fiction.

Of course you have a choice. I'm just drawing parallels to real life events in an attempt to make people understand that some parts of the story which they claim to be badly written actually make perfect sense from a militaristic perspective.

I'm not a blind fanboy defending his favorite game (it isn't my favorite game), since I did raise my eyebrow a few times when I experienced the story for the first time, but that was - more often than not - because I didn't grasp it in all it's intricacies, not because it was badly written. The writing isn't amazing, but it's not as extremely bad as people claim it to be.

People are (intentionally or not) distorting awakening through their own biased perspective to jump to conclusions. This being wrong is pointed out by multiple people in this thread, and it's perfeclty acceptable behaviour. High fantasy fiction has nothing to do with it.

And please use normal font. Whenever anyone uses a different font, It feels like they're just being holier-than-thou.

Me using this font has personal reasons. Feeling special certainly isn't one of them.

[RJWalker]

Medeus turned into a Dark Dragon in 2 years

Medeus didn't turn on his own. He was revived and turned into one.

why couldn't the Earth Dragons disappear(unsealed and killed?)

Why would they disappear? It's not like the game cares enough to tell us, right?

Such as it giving Cartas "guaranteed victory" over doluna,

Except Cartas was losing until Anri came back with the Falchion and faced Medeus...

Artemis' curse

Don't tell me you're taking this seriously. It's nothing more than superstition. Artemis 'curse'd the Emblem after the war when she was separated from Anri. After that, the only case of the 'curse' taking effect is Nyna and Hardin. That's a singular case. You need several to establish a pattern. Artemis' curse is simple superstition.

the jewels are different in Awakening

They're not though.

both the Falchion and Fire Emblem were broken and re-forged before the events of Awakening and is known as the Flame Pedestal.

Only the Falchion was reforged. Not the Emblem. It's name was simply lost but it is the same item. So why does it suddenly have completely opposite powers?

Geography doesn't even need mentioning it's 2000 years later and none of the countries even have the same name.

I'm talking about Valm's fucked up geography. Despite the shape of the continent being pretty much the same (hence, no using continental drift to explain it), specific locations are switched around. Duma's remains are now in the centre of Valm instead of where they used to be. Mila's Shrine is now where Duma originally fell. Sage's Hamlet (which is clearly supposed to be Sage's Village from Gaiden is also in a completely different location.

You seem like you just can't accept IS doing anything other than something overbearingingly rigid to the exact details of the previous games, when giving the setting and time gap it should be expected that things change.

Uhh, no. Things don't just arbitrarily change for no reason. Please don't even attempt to say 'overbearingingly rigid'. That's just wrong. You don't need to be overbearinlgy rigid to follow relatively simple continuity. Unless you're incompetent which I certainly believe the Awakening writers are.

That's sounds a lot like the stereotypical comic nerd going "In issue #02 from 1980 this happens, yet in this recent #500 charcacter x does y which clearly anyone who knows anything about the series knows they wouldn't do".

Wow. Just, wow. This is such an astoundingly poor analogy. Comics are well known for their insane continuity, often brining back bizarre and unknown elements from obscure titles and comics back into current comics. This is often the cause of people being wary of getting into comics because they won't recognise these old elements. Nearly every continuity error is addressed quickly. Why would you even use this analogy?

A handful of inconsistencies are not unusual These many though... That just spells willful ignorance or flat out incompetence.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Ranger Jack Walker

[Constable Reggie]

I'm unsure what you were reading to think what you do. but it's not the game's script. Chrom believes Virion and Cherche at the end of Chapter 11(that Valm is going to invade) but it's not until Chapter 12 when the Valmese is invading their continent and attacks civillians that Chrom decides to involve Ylisse in another war along with his true motivation(peace). This can be seen in the script for the start of Chapter 12:

On that note considering the discussion about negotiations I also think Dalton makes the Valmese intentions/demands pretty clear if they were to come to an agreement with Walhart.

Chrom

I've had time to ponder Ylisse's place in the world, Frederick. ...And my own. We must stand against evil, in all its forms, or there can be no peace!

He says this immediately after seeing Dalton kill the villager (imagine how much better this would have fit if he said this after, say, chapter 15). Regardless of Valm's (single) action right before he says this, it still shows that Chrom easily accepts Virion's words on their surface and heads straight to battle, while ignoring any course of action other than full confrontration. Of course, right after repelling Valm's advance force, he doesn't try any sort of negotiation (it's irrelevant if it would have failed, what's important is him trying), he goes and gets war materials in order to gain an upper hand against Valm. This is after just one battle with Valm, where Chrom generalizes the entire opposing force as savages because of the actions of one commander.

All he knows about Valm at this point are the testimony of one person (something which, if we saw ourselves, might have bettered the story), and the actions of the commander of the vanguard. Better just mark Valm as savages and call it a day, I guess.

[Delphi Sage]

Don't tell me you're taking this seriously. It's nothing more than superstition. Artemis 'curse'd the Emblem after the war when she was separated from Anri. After that, the only case of the 'curse' taking effect is Nyna and Hardin. That's a singular case. You need several to establish a pattern. Artemis' curse is simple superstition.

Except Artemis' Curse is real, and it wasn't Artemis who caused it.

Gato:

The only person that can restore the Shield of Seals is you

The Shield, itself, has chosen you.

Marth

..?

Gato:

You still dont understand?

The Emblem shield youre carrying is the stolen Shield of Seals.

To be honest, it was only recently that I noticed; its exterior had completely changed

After stealing it from Raman Temple, the thief removed its jewels and sold them off as treasures.

The money was used to fund an army, which, along with three stolen weapons, was used to conquer the world.

The thief that went on to become the king of Akaneia had the shield, which brought him such good fortune, become the emblem of his royal family.

Now do you understand, Marth?

It is what you are carrying, Akaneias Fire Emblem.

Marth:

!! What

The first king of Akaneia was originally a thief!?

Is that true? In that case, I can kind of understand the curse of the Fire Emblem

Either way, beyond that, it never gave Cartas any powers. It was just a banner he used to rally humanity into fighting back against Medeus.

And while we're on the subject of geography, I'll just mention Talys and leave it at that.

[Knusperkeks]

Chrom

I've had time to ponder Ylisse's place in the world, Frederick. ...And my own. We must stand against evil, in all its forms, or there can be no peace!

He says this immediately after seeing Dalton kill the villager (imagine how much better this would have fit if he said this after, say, chapter 15). Regardless of Valm's (single) action right before he says this, it still shows that Chrom easily accepts Virion's words on their surface and heads straight to battle, while ignoring any course of action other than full confrontration. Of course, right after repelling Valm's advance force, he doesn't try any sort of negotiation (it's irrelevant if it would have failed, what's important is him trying), he goes and gets war materials in order to gain an upper hand against Valm. This is after just one battle with Valm, where Chrom generalizes the entire opposing force as savages because of the actions of one commander.

All he knows about Valm at this point are the testimony of one person (something which, if we saw ourselves, might have bettered the story), and the actions of the commander of the vanguard. Better just mark Valm as savages and call it a day, I guess.

Chrom had two full years to learn from the plegia conflict.

Chrom was sceptical after hearing Virion's words, so he went to check the situation. Of course he took his troops with him, because not doing so would put him at a tactical disadvantage.

Let's skip to the clash of Dalton and Chrom.

The villager was outraged at Dalton's impossible demands. Rightfully so, since it would make living literally impossible. The villager was mercilessly and intentionally killed on the spot by Dalton.

On the battlefield, the general speaks with the voice of his sovereign. Dalton was speaking with Walhart's authority backing his words. After Chrom witnessed Valm's general commit such an act of cruelty, he was certain that there was absolutely zero room for negotions.

Chrom knew:

A host worth a million men is about to come crash down on him.

He is hopelessly outnumbered.

This means that he is in no position to negotiate peace.

The reason why the Valmese Empire gained so much territory is probably because the foolish former lords or Rosanne (and others, I forgot their names) tried to negotiate peace themselves, only to get crushed and assimilated.

You're probably a person who tries to negotiate with somebody who is pointing a gun to your face while only being armed with a tree branch.

If you know that negotiations will certainly fail, then there is no point to bother with them to begin with. In fact, doing so is harmful, since it gives the enemy more time to prepare. The only reason Ylisse survived was because Chrom made the right call in an extreme situation.

[Delphi Sage]

You're focusing a little too much on singling out the Valm arc exclusively. It leaves you wide open for the argument that Chrom still left a moustache-twirling villain with an army of zombies have free reign on his continent while he was busy killing Imperials.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

RJW, ya could've reposted what you did from gamefaqs as it was a long, but accurate read, iirc its posts 17-19 on page 2.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/114533-fire-emblem-if/71420739?page=1