The Reason for the Problems With Awakening

[Delphi Sage]

Speeaking of loss, I'd have to say that it's a split between 6 and 8 for the most balanced feeling of loss.

6 had the fall of several duchies in Lycia, the revolution in the Western Isles, a complete overturning of Etruria's political climate, half of Ilia and Sacae's populace was mowed down, and Bern was left barely intact.

8 had the death of 3 countries' leaders and their military, monsters having ransacked the continent, and an earthquake demolishing all of Grado.

I like it because there's room for things to be fixed and grow better.

3 had everyone either die, go into exile, or be forever depressed while Marth ruled the entire continent. Half the continent was no-man's land, and an entire race was slaughtered.

4 was the same, but without the no-man's-land.

And any analysis of 10 can never make sense because all time was stopped so that Ike and co. could go on a rampage murdering Begnion's populace and politicians without any ramifications whatsoever. No one could possibly consider the ramificstions of there being a flash of light, and half their population has suddenly disappeared.

[eclipse]

is this the kind of quality posting that you want from me? cause bam i just threw up some legit constructive criticism and even gave it some praise, sure i can chose to disregard my heart and lie to an internet forum that i actually like the game and i was pretending to be retarded the whole time, but momma told me to not lie.

It would've been fine without the snark - if you have THAT MUCH of a problem with being civil about something you don't like, keep it to yourself. Again, you are frequenting the restaurant that gets your order wrong.

Constuctive criticism, eh?

Okay then. How about instead of Validar being ridiculously obvious in his evil, he instead gets a redesign to make him seem nicer looking, probably getting some similarity to the default MU. Then make him completely open and nice with the protagonists in Chapter 13, explaining to everyone about how MU is his kid, and giving the party troops in the form of Henry.

Then get rid of Yurius almost entirely. Make Chapter 23 end with Validar pulling a Nergal and reviving Grima as he dies. They can then use Yurius the same way he's used in the final level as a last-minute hype raiser.

The same goes for you, too - if this is your proposal, then explain why it's better than what's currently in Awakening.

Alternately, the two of you can start a PM and complain about everything to your heart's content.

[Baldrick]

As it is, the game takes a big sign that says "Validar is a villain!", and beats the player over the head with it until they get a concussion. Applying a bit of subtlety would go a long way. For one thing, Chrom and Robin leaving him to his own devices would be believable.

[Moishe Oofnik]

Holy fuck THE FONT Knusperkeks I love how the guys defending awakening give nothing but theory unproven in text basicly the what if arguement again

P.S:Knusperkeks

Your entire point on worshipers in reality is stereotyping and false accusing (how saladus is right you act much like dawkins) Not all terrorists are doing it because of there religoen and not all religoes people are terrorist

Ignroance is bliss the awakening way

[omega zero]

Your entire point on worshipers in reality is stereotyping and false accusing (how saladus is right you act much like dawkins) Not all terrorists are doing it because of there religoen and not all religoes people are terrorist

Ignroance is bliss the awakening way

Not all religious folk are terrorists, but some are. That is the point which makes the Grimleal believable.

(And this is coming from someone that thinks Dawkins is confusing questions of science with questions of metaphysics and natural theology)

[Moishe Oofnik]

Not all religious folk are terrorists, but some are. That is the point which makes the Grimleal believable.

I never denyd that and no the grimleal isnt believebal because in there belief the thing they worhip aint going to devour them alive

(And this is coming from someone that thinks Dawkins is confusing questions of science with questions of metaphysics and natural theology)

[RJWalker]

No, actually, no one is like that. Not even the terrorists. Even they run on some kind of belief system that promises them salvation in the end. Whether it be 72 virgins in heaven or whatever, they don't do it 'just because'. They don't want to end the world. They want to impose their own rules and laws.

Now maybe this is the case with the Grimleal too. However, they're just eaten by Grima and nothing is ever said about their motivations. Come up with as many theories as you want but like I said, the running theme with Awakening is that "No explanation is ever given."

Make of that what you will.

[omega zero]

Okay, I just checked out the wiki. There really isn't much concrete indication as to why people joined the Grimleal. But there is this:

"Others, according to Gangrel found solace in the Grimleal to escape his despotic rule."

There's no citation, and this isn't much. However, the potential is there, it's a shame that IS didn't capitalize on it. They could have had some Grimleal explain that they'd rather die on their own terms instead of fighting for blood-crazed lunatic.

[RJWalker]

Okay, I just checked out the wiki. There really isn't much concrete indication as to why people joined the Grimleal. But there is this:

"Others, according to Gangrel found solace in the Grimleal to escape his despotic rule."

There's no citation, and this isn't much. However, the potential is there, it's a shame that IS didn't capitalize on it. They could have had some Grimleal explain that they'd rather die on their own terms instead of fighting for blood-crazed lunatic.

That makes no sense since the Grimleal only grow in power even more after Gangrel is defeated and they pretty much had free reign and full support from Gangrel.

[Vascela]

"Normal" people will never fully understand cult properties. It's just not going to happen. It doesn't make sense for people to join, but people do.

Those in Heaven's Gate might actually have ended up on a spaceship. Just because you aren't converted doesn't mean the cult has to justify itself.

[arvilino]

That makes no sense since the Grimleal only grow in power even more after Gangrel is defeated and they pretty much had free reign and full support from Gangrel.

The consequences(loss of life, injuries, worry,etc.) of large scale issues like war usually give people more reason to turn to any religion for comfort. Plus the official leader of the religion(Validar) becoming the highest political and spiritual authority of country for two years isn't going to reduce the power or influence of the religion is it?

Gangrel's despotic rule, the war started in chapter 6-11 and Validar's rise to power for 2 years are all things that would lead to people turning to the Grimleal and it becoming even more influencial.

Aversa

Why yes, of course he is Grimleal. We are both believers. My liege often says it was his faith that got him through, after Gangrel's passing. It was a difficult time... But he kept order where there might have been chaos. We had meant to arrange an official visit to Ylisstol, but— Ah, here is my lord now.

There's also Robin and Gangrel's A-rank support that explains how Aversa had simply been using Gangrel and how between his rule and her use of the religion they had people joining the religion without thinking. I'm pretty certain that this must be what that uncited wiki claim is referring to.

Robin:

Glad to be of service... But that does remind me of something...

Gangrel:

What might that be?

Robin:

You once worshipped Grima, correct? As a member of the Grimleal?

Gangrel:

Pah, those wrinkled old warts with their dusty tomes? I was Grimleal in name only. Course, it was the faith of the realm, so I knew most of its rituals.

Robin:

Religion can be a powerful tool for uniting people behind a single cause. I wager Aversa used it to convince your subjects to take up arms?

Gangrel:

...Perhaps. But in the end, I'd say she used me as much as anyone.

Robin:

And what did the people of Plegia really think of the faith?

Gangrel:

Think? Ha! They DIDN'T think! Between my iron-fisted rule and Aversa's inquisitions, they had no choice about it. ... But as I said, it was a cruel time.

Robin:

Your people were cowed by your political might, but the temples offered solace...

Gangrel:

Ah, yes. The solace of the damned.

Robin:

Thank you, Gangrel.

Gangrel:

Hmm? What for?

Robin:

We can't help the people of Plegia if we don't understand their situation. Our cause is simple--to save this world and all the people in it. And that includes the poor wretches of Plegia who remain in the thrall of Grima.

Edited March 24, 2015 by arvilino

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

you know what i just thought of that would be a totally legit explaination of the grima worship?

what if all his followers have a vore fetish and want to be eaten to satisfy that?

with that thrown out there, the other following posts makes some sense about the religion thing, it wouldn't be the first time places have been forced to follow a religion, i know in some places you can get killed if you don't follow the determined religion.

i kinda wish that information wasn't locked behind an A rank support of someone that should've stayed dead, maybe have tharja or henry explain that instead?

Edited March 24, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[arvilino]

you know what i just thought of that would be a totally legit explaination of the grima worship?

what if all his followers have a vore fetish and want to be eaten to satisfy that?

with that thrown out there, the other following posts makes some sense about the religion thing, it wouldn't be the first time places have been forced to follow a religion, i know in some places you can get killed if you don't follow the determined religion.

i kinda wish that information wasn't locked behind an A rank support of someone that should've stayed dead, maybe have tharja or henry explain that instead?

The way it's done in Awakening is a more indirect approach to forcing them. If Gangrel himself was forcing people to join the religion it'd be believable that they'd want to just leave it the moment he died. However Gangrel's despotic rule caused them to suffer, Aversa offers them seemingly the only escape/protection from it via the Grimleal and then they'd develop a stronger attachment to the religion that offered them solace in their time of need having chosen to join it themselves rather than following it being part of Gangrel's rule.

I'm not too sure it could be done in any other support(other than Aversa) as even Gangrel was being used by Aversa(and by extension Validar). It'd be a bit odd for Tharja or Henry to actually know the entire set up of how the Plegian citizens were pretty much trapped by tricking them into deeply following the Grimleal of their own accord.

Without revealing what actually happened perhaps the story could have had a hint of the impact of Gangrel's rule and the Grimleal's influence during that time. Like if it was mentioned(maybe by Henry) that after Gangrel's defeat there was suddenly an overwhelming demand for their ruler to be a religious authority of the Grimleal and that before Validar all their kings followed Grimleal but were never priests of the church.

[Delphi Sage]

Why do people keep working on the theory that FE13 did something right?! It's post-purchase rationalization! You're all too afraid of admitting to yourselves that the plot falls apart the instant you ask "why?", and are applying your own mostly-unfounded theories to close plot holes.

It's like how people keep rationalizing the Ridley scene in Metroid: Other M as PTSD when it was just outright weakness.

And no matter what your theories are on what the devs were trying to say, you forget one important fact:

Me, RJ and Kai aren't after 13 for what it tried to do; we're here for what it DID. And what it DID was create a one-dimensional villainous cult formed from a country populated entirely by bandits whose goals were to revive an evil dragon to blow up the world without any justification, motivation or rationale in the main story.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Delphi Sage

[IceBrand]

Legit question: Is the purpose of this topic to name the faults in Awakening and discuss them and such, or to just bash it's brains in?

[KMT4ever]

Legit question: Is the purpose of this topic to name the faults in Awakening and discuss them and such, or to just bash it's brains in?

Supposedly the former, but turning into the latter.

Why do people keep working on the theory that FE13 did something right?! It's post-purchase rationalization! You're all too afraid of admitting to yourselves that the plot falls apart the instant you ask "why?", and are applying your own mostly-unfounded theories to close plot holes.

I'm going to quote Aversa directly from the beginning of Chapter 22, where the only reason someone couldn't have read it is by deliberately skipping.

"You aren't listening. All of this—every word and action—has been orchestrated... Gangrel held the exalt in contempt, yes, so Validar and I used him. In life AND death. The king's demise threw Plegia into chaos. It drove the people to Grima... Now their life force and rancor can be laid before the fell dragon en masse."

Is that not enough explanation for the Grimleal?

[RJWalker]

Not really. Why would the death of their king that supposedly tormented them drive them into worshipping a dragon that just wants to eat them?

[Knusperkeks]

Why do people keep working on the theory that FE13 did something right?! It's post-purchase rationalization!

I'm going to quote Aversa directly from the beginning of Chapter 22, where the only reason someone couldn't have read it is by deliberately skipping.

"You aren't listening. All of this—every word and action—has been orchestrated... Gangrel held the exalt in contempt, yes, so Validar and I used him. In life AND death. The king's demise threw Plegia into chaos. It drove the people to Grima... Now their life force and rancor can be laid before the fell dragon en masse."

Not really. Why would the death of their king that supposedly tormented them drive them into worshipping a dragon that just wants to eat them?

I didn't mention it explicitly, but I was referencing it a long time ago in a post on page 11. Here you go:

In the pre battle script of chapter 22, you can clearly see that something is wrong with the worshippers. Mind control, drugs, torture, brain washing, pick the one you like most. This is all I say on this matter.

There is a reason I decided that this was all I would say on that specific topic. I wanted to figure out whether people actually put thought into analyzing my arguments. Seems not like it. Case in point. This thread has been going in circles for three days now.

[arvilino]

Not really. Why would the death of their king that supposedly tormented them drive them into worshipping a dragon that just wants to eat them?

Are we eschewing common sense too now? strip away the game's terms and you're asking when the governing body of their country is lost during a war why people would turn to the only place that has order and support. Gangrel was still responsible for running his country.

Edited March 24, 2015 by arvilino

[Delphi Sage]

The people seemed perfectly capable of ditching Gangrel of their own volition in Chapter 11. How the hell could that be construed as "Throwing yourself off a cliff because your king is evil"? That's more "willingly declaring neutrality and going under the responsibility of a neighbouring country". That's what happened with Daein; Crimea was given permission to reign over it after the war, but declined for the sake of their own reparations, allowing ownership to pass into Begnion. The same could be said here: Plegia gets passed into Ylisse's ownership, and if it didn't, Ferox could decide to take responsibility of governing it. It doesn't make sense that their people got left completely alone so a bunch of cultists could take over two years later.

[-Cynthia-]

Plegia is supposedly the richest country, it may be that Ylisse and Regna Ferox lacked the money for any sort of occupation. It would have been nice for this to be explored a little, apparently in game everyone just leaves Plegia to do whatever after Chapter 11.

[Delphi Sage]

Plegia is supposedly the richest country

First, [citation needed].

Second, they live in a wasteland that's half desert. How could they possibly be rich?

[eclipse]

Why do people keep working on the theory that FE13 did something right?! It's post-purchase rationalization! You're all too afraid of admitting to yourselves that the plot falls apart the instant you ask "why?", and are applying your own mostly-unfounded theories to close plot holes.

It's like how people keep rationalizing the Ridley scene in Metroid: Other M as PTSD when it was just outright weakness.

And no matter what your theories are on what the devs were trying to say, you forget one important fact:

Me, RJ and Kai aren't after 13 for what it tried to do; we're here for what it DID. And what it DID was create a one-dimensional villainous cult formed from a country populated entirely by bandits whose goals were to revive an evil dragon to blow up the world without any justification, motivation or rationale in the main story.

Last warning: If you hate Awakening this much, get out of this subforum. If you can't be respectful to those who aren't in arms over the story, don't bother posting in here.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

idk about richest, but there are some comments about its wealth, not sure why its wealthy because nothing is ever fully elaborated on, but its in there few times.

i would like to hear about the story of why they have "so much wealth" tho, once again could this be in a support convo with a plegia character, if its not already that i don't know of?

i mean as said we found out about some of the religion stuff in a support convo, so is there anything in there mentioned about the wealth?

Edited March 25, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[astrophys]

Its not necessarily directly stated that Plegia is necessarily the absolute wealthiest, but it is stated that they have lots of greatly-needed gold available to fund the campaign against Valm.

Which definitely implies that they are wealthy to a good extent and could be the wealthiest, although this itself isn't proof thereof.

Unless there is an additional line that I'm not remembering or if said line is phrased different from how I remember it, that is.

Can anyone remember the exact line?