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Moishe Oofnik

FE4 Gen1+Gen2 Tier Lists

Best Gen 2 Unit?  

72 members have voted

  1. 1. Best Gen 2 unit?

    • Leif
      9
    • Aless
      13
    • Celice
      22
    • Shanan
      2
    • Levin!Sety
      8
    • Levin!Arthur
      12
    • Leen/Laylea
      3
    • Roddlebad
      3


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You know, I agree with him. Dew is retardedly high. Remember that his combat is blargh, and Lex has a mount. I think above Midir is good. Money dumping is immensely useful, but not enough to warrant high. The only person needing money is Sylvia(maaaaaaybe Ethlin but I doubt it, that Cuan's job.)

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uhhhh we never proved Dew > Lex or Cuan > Lex at any point??? the argument was Fin > Lex, which I accepted, and which is why Fin should go above Lex.

I also haven't mentioned father potential once we agreed to not take it into account; stop strawmanning me.

Lex is a top-3 combat unit post Chapter 1, and while it's true that he's not as good in Chapter 4/5, that's moreso because you don't really need anyone other than Sigurd and maybe Levin to fight in those chapters- he's still better than everyone else at killing things.

Dew is just giving money. This mainly involves some money to Aideen for Warping, the Knight Ring for Sylvia, and some to Lachesis so that she can use Rescue. It's not ranked so you don't need to particularly pass around the Elite Ring or even Rescue-spam, and the Leg Ring is going to Sigurd, and he can get money for himself.

Edited by BBM

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uhhhh we never proved Dew > Lex or Cuan > Lex at any point??? the argument was Fin > Lex, which I accepted, and which is why Fin should go above Lex.

I also haven't mentioned father potential once we agreed to not take it into account; stop strawmanning me.

Lex is a top-3 combat unit post Chapter 1, and while it's true that he's not as good in Chapter 4/5, that's moreso because you don't really need anyone other than Sigurd and maybe Levin to fight in those chapters- he's still better than everyone else at killing things.

Dew is just giving money. This mainly involves some money to Aideen for Warping, the Knight Ring for Sylvia, and some to Lachesis so that she can use Rescue. It's not ranked so you don't need to particularly pass around the Elite Ring or even Rescue-spam, and the Leg Ring is going to Sigurd, and he can get money for himself.

I was not strawmanning you I was just indicating it to everyone as a reminder and yea I get you he goes above midir

Quan VS Lex is intersting

Topics:

Levin VS Beowurf

Quan VS Lex

Edited by Moishe Oofnik

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also it's important to note that all of the people who really need money are women (GOLD-DIGGERS) so they can also get money from their husbands

Cuan is relying on Continue procs to kill anything, and Fin is getting the Speed Ring, so that's a... 25-30% chance? Lex is ORKOing everything that's not an Armour (or a Swordfighter if he misses I guess) after Chapter 1, which is a lot more than 30%, and also has C4/C5 availability to make up for the fact that Cuan is better for Prologue and C1.

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For the purposes of this tier list Dew is kind of mediocre and should not be higher than Mid Tier tbqh. A cash dump on Lachesis in Ch.2 and one for Aideen later is pretty much all you really need him to do.

Fin > Lex > Cuan is what we agreed on IIRC

Sigurd

Sylvia

Ethlin, Fin, Lex

Cuan, Midir, Fury

I think that's kind of where things are at. Cuan vs Midir vs Fury is something to look into imo, Lex is definitely better than Cuan though.

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Chapter 4 without Dew is literally the worst (takes like 30 more turns or something).

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What level are we assuming Lex is in chapter 2? He needs to be level 17 to ORKO anything other than a mage and Beowulf's Free knights (which he has ~70 hit on) and Elliot's initial wave (which all are weakened to the point where Alec can kill them). I guess if we're trying to use him to his fullest extent he could probably reach level 17 after Anphony, and I'll admit i'm heavily biased against Lex because mine always blow and never ORKO anything, but on average I guess he's able, although I still think giving him any credit other than existing for chapters 4 and 5 is too much credit, he's as good as Alec and Noish there. I'm willing to concede that Lex is probably better than Cuan overall, but I still prefer Cuan because he's the best.

Can someone else post a benchmark level for Lex going into chapter 2 (after getting as far as he can in the arena, which is probably the swordfighter or magic dude)

I agree with the notion of Dew going down though. If he didn't exist it wouldn't be a huge problem. Lachesis doesn't even really need a money dump, she gets that with the knight ring and she starts with a load of cash and access to all the chapter 2 villages if need be. Aideen definately appreciates it a lot though.

Midir is fantastic but he's heavily reliant on being full HP and then relying on procs of charge and critical for awesome offence, and neither his HP or skill is very good. I guess him procing critical or charge (when at full HP) has slightly better odds than Cuan proc;ing continue, but Cuan has a very solid enemy phase (which admittably isn't as important) and more movement. Midir also drops off a cliff like most units come chapter 4, he really doesn't like magic and forests. I'd say Cuan is better overall though.

Fury has avaliability against her (especially essentially not being around for chapter 2) but she's very good in chapter 4 and is all but guaranteed the hero lance so her offence is awesome. I dunno what to make of her vs. Midir, I'd give Midir the slight edge for being pretty awesome in chapter 2.

EDIT: you don't need to actually use Dew to have him open the bridge in chapter 4, and it's not hard to keep him out of enemy range, the points irrelevant. Having him be competant is helpful yes, but it takes effort.

EDITEDIT: I think Levin's better than Beowulf by quite a bit. Why's Beowulf this high anyway? He's like Alec with like +3 strength or something and less avaliablity.

Edited by General Horace

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I agree with Holyn > Ayra > Briggid but I think Jamka is better or equal to her. He's around longer and does comparatively more than what Briggid does while she's around. Plus Ichivial isn't really doing anything. Like Briggid is still gonna kill chapter 4 pegasus knights cause she's a sniper. At most it might help if we have her fight any bosses but we likely won't be having her fight Langobart or Reptor anyway.

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idk it's been a while since I've played FE4 in a non-draft scenario but I know in my draft with Lex he hit 20 sometime during Chapter 2 (Sigurd was my only other mount though). He's probably not hitting that level 17 benchmark if you're having Fin solo brigades though. I definitely remember Lex ORKOing stuff in C2; he might have been blessed though I guess so I really don't know about average Lex.

I'll admit to being biased for Lex and against Fin and Cuan because neither of them have ever been very good for me. It was so much effort feeding Fin the one time I got him to promotion in first gen, and IIRC he hit level 20 fighting C3 Pirates.

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I've usually had my Lex's be around level 14 or so going into chapter 2, he definitely manages to promote by 3. Lex and Cuan are both pretty much the same, statistically they're very similar and Cuan's strength lead is kinda mitigated by the fact he needs Continue or to steal the Hero Lance to kill. Lex might have a slight edge because of how many lance enemies are about, but I wouldn't put him significantly ahead of Cuan.

Beowulf is pretty much Alec with more strength and a slightly less useless skill. Levin's possible contributions in 4 and 5 probably put him ahead of Beowulf, who doesn't really do much. Levin's offense is just more useful. Dew's probably more useful than Beowulf, investing in him is a bit of effort but he's pretty nice to have in 4 and 5 - he's a good candidate for taking on the Dragonriders.

Midir pretty much needs the Killer Bow to be useful, otherwise he's another Alec. Like, imagine if Alec had a 100 hit sword that gave him critical. Still, his offense is pretty good if he does have it, which sets him above the other non-holy horses.

tldr: Beowulf to below Alec, Dew to below Ayra, swap Lex and Cuan.

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In my experience Lex ORKOs most enemies in Ch.2 with the Hero Axe except Armors but Sigurd is probably the only unit who can ORKO them until Fin gets the Hero Lance or unless Cuan procs a Continue. He does destroy all the Social Knights and Duke Knights pretty easily - there's a lot of them from when you start charging towards Mackily castle until the end of the chapter. There's like 2 or 3 turns in Ch.2 where he isn't able to ORKO at least one enemy unit with the Hero Axe. His Hand Axe chip and high def also shouldn't be underestimated because there's a couple of enemies in Ch.2 that can hit pretty hard with Steel or Silver Lance.

I dunno about level benchmarks but if he has the Hero Axe he can clear the arenas in Ch.1 and Ch.2 so I'd say he's gonna be around level 14 or 15.

Edit: Beowulf is definitely better than Alec though. Charge + better stats + a solid str growth rate easily make up for the availability difference and promoted Beowulf is a pretty good combat unit. It may not be like a whole tier but he's definitely better.

Edited by Yojinbo

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It depends on how much I use other units if Lex promotes around the end of chapter 2. He almost always is promoted after clearing the arena at the beginning of 3 though.

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Edit: Beowulf is definitely better than Alec though. Charge + better stats + a solid str growth rate easily make up for the availability difference and promoted Beowulf is a pretty good combat unit. It may not be like a whole tier but he's definitely better.

Truth be told, their contributions in chapter 3 onwards aren't that much different. Beo fights better than Alec, but I feel that Alec's possible contributions early game kinda outweigh that. There's the added bonus that Alec doesn't auto-die to the Dragonknights, but it's not like either him or Beo are prime candidates to fight them.

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Tier list Changes:

Lex above quan

Dew to below Midir but above levin

Midir Reaches High tier (Debateable spot)

Beo down to mid tier

Current Topic:

Beo VS Holyn

Guys you seem to forget how retarded beowulfs promo bonuses are

and Dew is going above holyn holyns offence may be overkill but it doesnt really matter because there other units who can do what he does... dew has money dumping for every healer and anyone who is short on cash

Paragon ring is still useful even in non ranked because it lets units get promo bonuses earlier and level up earlier given that Dew is defenitly above noish ayra and holyn and levin (who is only great at mid chapter4 too chapter 5)

Im quite sure that most of alecs contributions early game outweight OP offence and being a footie but thats up too debate

Edited by Moishe Oofnik

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but there aren't really that many (important) units who have trouble getting to promotion that they really need the ring and promotion ASAP though. Lachesis wants to buy it if you couldn't feed Voltz to her, and then Sigurd needs to pass it to Celice, although he should probably be able to get it himself. The only other unit who really cares is Dew himself frankly.

beo's promo gains are kind of superfluous; he never has trouble hitting that he needs +9 skill and he doubles everything that he'll ever fight so he doesn't really need +6 speed either other than like better Continue procs or whatever. I think he's still better than Holyn just because horse though.

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but there aren't really that many (important) units who have trouble getting to promotion that they really need the ring and promotion ASAP though. Lachesis wants to buy it if you couldn't feed Voltz to her, and then Sigurd needs to pass it to Celice, although he should probably be able to get it himself. The only other unit who really cares is Dew himself frankly.

beo's promo gains are kind of superfluous; he never has trouble hitting that he needs +9 skill and he doubles everything that he'll ever fight so he doesn't really need +6 speed either other than like better Continue procs or whatever. I think he's still better than Holyn just because horse though.

He is pretty much holyn on a horse

Charge>Luna

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Yeah but he doesn't need it. There's no point where Beowulf doesn't already kill something with a half decent weapon that he won't over kill with charge. And if he does activate charge it's probably on something he won't kill anyway, like generals or the barons.

Also I dare to say Azel and Tilityu might want some Elite Ring time. I'm not sure who we're really giving civilians to. Dew, Tilityu, Ardan and potentially Azel are probably the best targets and Ardan and Azel are possible to be promoted by then depending on how many kills and arenas they get through.

Typically I can get away with like Dew 4 /TIlityu 2 civilians and then as long as Tilityu clears the 3, 4, and 5 arenas she promotes at the start of 5.

Edited by Psych

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Dew won't need the civilians because it's not actually that hard to have him promoted after the chapter 4 arena. Not as hard as a lot of people would think. He can buy a Speed Ring and a Skill Ring in Ch.1 to make it until the Sword General [whom Dew won't beat] and clear all the upcoming arenas with the Prayer Sword glitch. The only opponents that are really hard for Dew to beat are the Lance Armors in the Ch.2 and Ch.3 arena because these battles are kind of long and thus Dew has a high chance of proccing Sol and getting out of prayer range. It's still manageable though and you only need to be like level 9 after Ch.2 to get to level 20 in time - if you clear Ch.3 and Ch.4 arena with the Elite Ring you'll get about 11 level ups because the enemies in the Ch.4 arenas are at a really high level.

I don't actually think Azel will need the civilians either. In my LTC testings I've always had him around level 10 at the end of Ch.2 and while he probably won't clear the Ch.3 arena [i don't think he can beat the Dark Mage] Ch.3 allows foot units to get a decent chunk of exp. Azel can probably finish the chapter at around level 14 or 15 which is enough to promote after clearing the Ch.4 arena with the Elite Ring [this one isn't actually difficult for Azel in my experience]. Keep in mind that I'm playing the game at break-neck pace and there's still enough exp available for Azel to likely pull it off. It doesn't really involve all that much rigging either so I'm confident that you could have him promoted by Ch.4 without much trouble.

Beowulf may not have the money to afford the Elite Ring and he might need a few level ups to promote but I think the civilians are mostly there for Tiltyu at that point.

Edited by Yojinbo

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I almost always feed the civilians exclusively to Tiltyu.

I have two problems with the Gen 1 list right now. The first is Lachesis being in High. Just because she promotes into the best class doesn't mean much when she's an absolute terror to train. She's in a class where it's very hard to train, especially in her join chapter where it's all spears, and she's way too fragile to trust in Prayer range over someone like Fin who can actually kill stuff. She's stuck on foot so she won't really be reaching people to even heal them for quick EXP. Fin should have the Elite Ring first to promote quicker. Lachesis doesn't have the cash to buy it unless she gets all the villages and Dew gives her his money, which screws Aideen and Ethlin. Aideen needs it to repair her staves, and Ethlin needs to buy the Pursuit Ring. Here's her biggest problem: she basically has to promote before mid-3 to deal with the Cross Knights. When promoted? Lachesis is awesome in combat, and Silver Bow!Lachesis can solo the Cross Knights without even standing on a forest. The problem is that she's so damn hard to train that any reliable method costs lots of turns or forces you to baby her which means you're not putting effort into better units (Levin, Fury, Beowulf). Even when she promotes, what staves are we giving her? Nanna can't take anything over C rank, so they all disappear. Mounted Reserve/Silence/Sleep are nice, I guess, but those are expensive, and MK!Lachesis is more needed to do combat or glue herself to her future husband. I think she can go below Dew.

My other issue, and this is minor, is Midir>Fury. I get that Midir has an amazing earlygame, but he falls off quickly, and that's when Fury picks up. She gets the Hero Lance from Fin mid-3, right around the time that lots of enemies show up that she can kill with said lance. Wing Clipper!Fury is a great choice for taking down the Deetva/Pamela squads, and Fury kills the Meteo Mages and Dragon Knights in 5, two things Midir shouldn't be doing (he can snipe the DK's from a distance, but he needs to constantly canto away because they can--and will--hit him). Fury can also provoke the Freege units early for a faster clear of 5, something else Midir doesn't do. 4 and 5 are where Fury shines; Midir is useless in both.

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Tier list Changes:

Lex above quan

Dew to below Midir but above levin

Midir Reaches High tier (Debateable spot)

Beo down to mid tier

Current Topic:

Beo VS Holyn

Guys you seem to forget how retarded beowulfs promo bonuses are

and Dew is going above holyn holyns offence may be overkill but it doesnt really matter because there other units who can do what he does... dew has money dumping for every healer and anyone who is short on cash

Paragon ring is still useful even in non ranked because it lets units get promo bonuses earlier and level up earlier given that Dew is defenitly above noish ayra and holyn and levin (who is only great at mid chapter4 too chapter 5)

Im quite sure that most of alecs contributions early game outweight OP offence and being a footie but thats up too debate

What is Alec really doing? Sigurd, Cuan and Fin should be doing most of the combat, and remember that Alec's stats are bad. Mountedness doesn't mean much when combat is bad. For whatever it's worth (AKA this doesn't count towards his placement) he's a bad father too.

But I digress. Fury should be Midir. Flyers were nerfed but that doesn't mean they still kick ass. It really only hurts in gen two, where roads are much more common. In Ch 3 there is backtracking and a giant forest, chapter 4 there are really only roads to thove, Silesse has mountains and traveling Zaxon road means dealing with Lamia. Chapter 5 is basically all desert.

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What is Alec really doing? Sigurd, Cuan and Fin should be doing most of the combat, and remember that Alec's stats are bad. Mountedness doesn't mean much when combat is bad. For whatever it's worth (AKA this doesn't count towards his placement) he's a bad father too.

But I digress. Fury should be Midir. Flyers were nerfed but that doesn't mean they still kick ass. It really only hurts in gen two, where roads are much more common. In Ch 3 there is backtracking and a giant forest, chapter 4 there are really only roads to thove, Silesse has mountains and traveling Zaxon road means dealing with Lamia. Chapter 5 is basically all desert.

I guess a good enough Alec can maybe do things with Magic or Hero Swords, but he's so low on the priority list for both.

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I almost always feed the civilians exclusively to Tiltyu.

I have two problems with the Gen 1 list right now. The first is Lachesis being in High. Just because she promotes into the best class doesn't mean much when she's an absolute terror to train. She's in a class where it's very hard to train, especially in her join chapter where it's all spears, and she's way too fragile to trust in Prayer range over someone like Fin who can actually kill stuff. She's stuck on foot so she won't really be reaching people to even heal them for quick EXP. Fin should have the Elite Ring first to promote quicker. Lachesis doesn't have the cash to buy it unless she gets all the villages and Dew gives her his money, which screws Aideen and Ethlin. Aideen needs it to repair her staves, and Ethlin needs to buy the Pursuit Ring. Here's her biggest problem: she basically has to promote before mid-3 to deal with the Cross Knights. When promoted? Lachesis is awesome in combat, and Silver Bow!Lachesis can solo the Cross Knights without even standing on a forest. The problem is that she's so damn hard to train that any reliable method costs lots of turns or forces you to baby her which means you're not putting effort into better units (Levin, Fury, Beowulf). Even when she promotes, what staves are we giving her? Nanna can't take anything over C rank, so they all disappear. Mounted Reserve/Silence/Sleep are nice, I guess, but those are expensive, and MK!Lachesis is more needed to do combat or glue herself to her future husband. I think she can go below Dew.

My other issue, and this is minor, is Midir>Fury. I get that Midir has an amazing earlygame, but he falls off quickly, and that's when Fury picks up. She gets the Hero Lance from Fin mid-3, right around the time that lots of enemies show up that she can kill with said lance. Wing Clipper!Fury is a great choice for taking down the Deetva/Pamela squads, and Fury kills the Meteo Mages and Dragon Knights in 5, two things Midir shouldn't be doing (he can snipe the DK's from a distance, but he needs to constantly canto away because they can--and will--hit him). Fury can also provoke the Freege units early for a faster clear of 5, something else Midir doesn't do. 4 and 5 are where Fury shines; Midir is useless in both.

Honestly, i thought that lachesis was in the "high" tier because of her mounted rescue utility shaving a ton of turns. Thing is, this can't be relevant until chapter 4 at the earliest (assuming aideenX azel. AideenX claude dosn't give the rescue staff untill chapter 5.), and that's a much easier benchmark to meet. She also still helps a ton in combat even if you wait to promote her.

Edited by sirmola

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Fury vs Midir is gonna be hard to evaluate. Again, I might be biased here but I doubt most of you people have an idea just what a Killer Bow!Midir can do in Ch.2 alone. He does save quite a bit of effort and makes life easier for you many times but I don't know if that's enough to keep up with Fury's qualities. I personally don't care either way but I think Cuan, Midir and Fury probably all belong in the same tier. I also disagree that he's 'falling off' from Ch.4 onwards. It's just that Ch.4 generally has stronger opponents than the rest of the chapters because they mainly use Wind Magic and Swords - the two best weapon types in the game.

But I agree that Lachesis is too high, Dew is still too high as well. Once Aideen has a lover - which can be as early as Ch.3 if you pair her up with Jamka or Azel - Dew's money distribution will be quite obsolete. I doubt Dew will end up doing more for your party than Jamka or Alec or something. Imo people started to overhype him a bit because of how important he was in Marty's 0% run but if you're not playing the game super fast he's not really important. I don't think lowering the bridge in Ch.4 should count as a contribution for the purposes of this tier list either.

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Yeah I'll agree Midir > Fury. Realistically Fury only shows up to fight Zyne's group and maybe the armors around Agusty and is probably the best person to visit all the villages due to them being so far out of the way. So she probably won't see much combat besides the arena in Chapter 2.

In 3, we'll probably have promoted Fin and want to give her the Brave Lance but there's not a lot we'll have her fight. Maybe the Fire mages or the Lance Knights to the west. She can nab a couple of Dragon Knights or Pirates if we send her to help Claude and Tiltyu but Midir can keep up with out main forces much better and much better exposure to combat. I'd give chapter 4 and 5 to Fury due to terrain and being a better promoted then he is generally and actually having an enemy phase, but otherwise he outclasses her.

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What is Midir fighting? Brigands around evans, S, C, and Azel are doing most of the work, very little. Chapter 1 he's there, but it's Fin, S and C doing the work again, and his contributions are limited. Chapter 2 he gets the killer bow, boosting his ability by a lot, IF he crits. He can help out with Elliot's dudes very well, but the armors are another story. Because of their ludicrous defence and his mediocre attack, he's going to need a double crit to hurt them badly or kill them. He can do Beo's squad, but we probably want to hero!Fin solo those guys. He can snipe guys off the cliffs. We also get Fury this chapter, but she more or less won't contribute. Chapter 3, he can help out with the armors (If he sees the arch knights he's screwed because his defence is garbage.) He can fight the cross knights too, but he gets hurt easily, because Eltshan's leadership. It's probably going to be a Levin, Dew, or Fin solo anyways. Read my previous statement about armors. Once Silvail is seized, he isn't doing much, and chapter 4 he falls off because of the mages and his mediocre stats. Fury will probably get villages in chapter 3, and hit a pirate or two in the north. Nothing huge. Chapter 4, Midir can nuke a flyer here or there. However, he's greatly hindered by forests. Fury can fly across them no problem, and feed kills to the Hero Lance by killing Pegs. After that, unless he's promoted, Midir is useless. Fury kills Midir on this map. Chapter 5. Once again, Axe knights are soloed by Sigurd and Lachesis and maybe Beowulf or promoted myrm. Fury can contribute here too because she can use swords, although less so than the others. Brave bow knights aren't good for either. Once the desert shows up, Fury blows Midir out of the water with the ability to kill meteor mages. She wins for the rest of the chapter.

Contributions and availability? Midir wins by a small but significant amount.

Now we talk about stats, which are the primary way to show how much one can contribute. Midir's bases sucks, which is why we give him the killer bow, because he can do things with it. If he doesn't have it he has trouble killing things with his 30% str growth. Fury's bases, on the other hand, are REALLY good (maybe it's mostly the speed.) She can dodge tank really well as well, meaning she has trouble dying. She can take a bunch of swords too. With the hero lance, she is almost guaranteed a one round. Unless Midir gets the brave bow (and some people would prefer rescue) he can't one round consistently.

Stats? Fury wins.

So who's better? I say they're equal.

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