Apotheosis secret path ~ no DLC/Rally/3 Vengeance users ~ completed

[Knusperkeks]

Edited.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[Ownagepuffs]

Please address this to the pairing thread. It will be much easier to help you there.

[Knusperkeks]

Edited.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[Vascela]

Are you interested in my methodology of dealing with no paid dlc/no rally 100%? Or are you only interested in my opinion about your Yarne (seeing as this is more about the routing and not the pairing help)?

[Knusperkeks]

Edited.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[Vascela]

For starters, I'd ask for more information about your team. I don't really know how you want to clear it (I'm assuming you're throwing consistency out the window seeing a partial and very low crit setup). Non-Sniper physicals don't really shine in Apo (imo).

The most important part is you clearing it the way you want to clear it (if that makes any sense). If you want to run in with Yarne getting crits, I'll find a way to make it work--just know that I don't really like random% clears (won't stop me from trying to figure out whatever puzzle pieces come my way).

[Knusperkeks]

Edited.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[Vascela]

It's when you say "the only option is..."

that mentality has got to go. Because a +Spd Avatar isn't the only option. I can teach you how to setup a perfect V/V, but I don't think that's what you're looking for. Looking at the enemy Spd values simply mean 1 thing: you either find a way to double through whatever means necessary... or you just don't do it. I tackle dual strikes the same way--since 100% isn't something to strive for, I remove the items from the supporting unit for consistency purposes.

Spotpass characters are the best way to complete Apo (imo). For no rally specifically, however, I do use Severa and Morgan (and by extension, spouses, but they never attack and only fulfill their use with hex/anathema/dual support+/pair up bonus)

[Yunanuy]

His lack of Wyvern Rider is a big problem for me, since I want to make him a Berserker, which basically forces me to marry Panne to Gregor, since Donnel is needed by Noire.

Gregor!Yarne has 49.25 crit with tonics as a stat capped Berserker.

That means even with Wrath, he will only have 14.25% crit against the enemies with only 55 luck. There are some who have 60 or higher luck. Of course, this Yarne will be pure support.

So far my list looks like this:

Armsthrift

Axefaire

Patience

Even Rythm

Strength +2

Thoughts?

This topic still falls under what's discussed in the pairing thread.

If Yarne is gonna pack Brave Axes, AT isn't crucial to your setups as Braves are easy to get. If you're willing to let go of AT, Virion gives Yarne better options. Libra/Henry also offers similar modifiers along with Hex/Anathema. Gregor doesn't give him much to play with...

Even Rhythm is a terrible skill, and as far as I'm aware doesn't affect the lead unit, unless you're doing it for hit on even turns..which makes it situationally effective at the most. You'd be better off packing a breaker for extra hit against those weapons.

[Knusperkeks]

Edited.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[Vascela]

"there's just no reliable way to..."

Well sure there is. The best way to deal with Anna is to not directly fight her (this doesn't only apply to no rally, this applies to all Anna fights). I Long Bow her off throne (if her HP is below max, then her AI will leave the throne to attack units regardless of range) and proceed to V/V her (since my vantage > vantage+ on enemy phase). Even if you don't want to V/V her, you can find a way to Long Bow + random% Dual Strike your way to victory. 3 Range is very potent in Apo. I think death is a stronger method of stopping a force than a dedicated dodge tank that does the same job (if not a worse of a job).

The only difference between no rally and other variances is that no rally is heavily restricted in turn count (whereas other inconsistent setups might have turn variance that don't matter). So for my example on dealing with wave 5, you allows X turns for Zerkers, Y turns for Sorcs, Z turns for Snipers, etc. and it turns out to be calculated exactly in 7 player phases.

My thoughts on AT: Don't do it. It only has combat relevance if you attack with X +1 times where X is the weapon's durability. Even with Celica's Gale, you can perfect your movement so that it never requires more than 20 uses of a Tome per phase. The Physical Braves are even more generous for weapon durability.

You can quantify Dual Strike+ (specifically for 100% DS% just as an example) as 11 fielded combat units for the entire xenologue and 1 extra turn for Wave 5 (compared to DS+less/no rally counterpart). It's the extra turn that's key (lucky for us, V/V can do Wave 5 in 7 player phases, the question is can you do in 7)

My thoughts on Spd: don't care for it. Who cares if you do 4x damage if the enemy never attacks and you never see the extra 2x damage? On that note, for wave 4 it's nice to double the Falco Knights with Mire (post baiting the mire). This 4x is actually noticeable damage as the enemy doesn't counter. That is the only Spd threshold you should even care about--and even then, Bows and Celica's are foe-effective. You can bank on a single DS% if you miscalculate certain benchmarks by accident.

[Czar_Yoshi]

If Yarne is gonna pack Brave Axes, AT isn't crucial to your setups as Braves are easy to get. If you're willing to let go of AT, Virion gives Yarne better options. Libra/Henry also offers similar modifiers along with Hex/Anathema. Gregor doesn't give him much to play with...

Even Rhythm is a terrible skill, and as far as I'm aware doesn't affect the lead unit, unless you're doing it for hit on even turns..which makes it situationally effective at the most. You'd be better off packing a breaker for extra hit against those weapons.

This is No DLC/Rally. Things that aren't relevant in No Holds Barred are extremely relevant here, and things that used to matter there don't here. It's a different animal and assuming old things work well but harder isn't going to get you very far.

One of the biggest differences is that being out LB and Rally means an automatic -20 Skl and -24 Lck, which translates to -42 Hit. You can't just sponge that and expect to continue going about your business as normal- mooks will be dodging things and it makes sense to pack Breakers for the +Hit against bosses alone. Gregor!Yarne@Berserker with just Tonics boosting him and a 5/15 B.Axe is going to have 171 Hit when supporting. The threshold for 100% on non-bosses is 220, and anything less than 198 gives imperfect Hit on everything before WTA- Yarne will be whiffing nearly half his hits even on mooks without +Hit investment. Against the likes of bosses (who he's normally supposed to be the one killing due to being a high Str Berserker), you're staring down Avo in the vicinity of 150. 20% True is 8.20% real. You can't just do that and expect to win.

Hit isn't something you aim for after insuring that your KO is possible here. It's your first priority after making sure you aren't doubled and ORKOed.

I can teach you how to setup a perfect V/V, but I don't think that's what you're looking for.

Even DSt+ requires 120 total Skl, which you're not getting easily on a magical pair with no DLC/Rally. On some units, even hitting 100% Vengeance can be an issue- AC had to revise his pairings last minute when he realized that his Owain was 1 Skl off.

if it helps, I can explain my thought process. The comment about speed obviously aims at doubling enemies. Since Avatar is male, he can only marry a female unit. (...). Berserker Avatar @+speed has a 44 speed cap. 46 with tonics.

The fastest female child unit is Sumia!Lucina, who is tied with Chrom!Cynthia, Gaius!Noire, Lon'Qu!Severa.

Speaking of threats... Anna can be a pain to deal with, there is just no reliable way to survive with a squishy. 65% Aether is sick in conjunction with Vantage+.

It might be necessary to create a dodge tank with Lancebreaker or other dodge skills, this lines up nicely with +speed Morgan.

Libra and Henry might be needed on units which can not feasibly attain Luna. Those need to use vantage+vengeance to be relevant.

I was thinking of having Virion father Brady, since Virion doesn't have much in the ways of activated skills, and Brady has build-in Luna.

About AT: It's purpose is to let a potential vantage+vengeance unit kill many enemies in a single turn.

Even Rythm's sole purpose is to grant hit on even turns. Patience does the same only on enemy turns instead. Again, thinking about pairing him with a vantage+vengeance girl. I know that the rythm skills do not effect the paired up unit.

I didn't include a breaker skill because Yarne would lose +2 Strength for it. This is what I meant with my Yarne problem in the opening post. If he could go for Wyvern Rider, I would just stack Axebreaker and Lancebreaker on him and be happy about his 100% chance to hit (there are not that many swords in apo).

Actually Spd aims at not being doubled and ORKOed. You must have at least one 60 Spd unit if you want to avoid being doubled by Thronie, and unless you can take him out reliably in 6 hits you're going to need to do that. Having more than one helps a lot, when AC did this he made getting them his top priority, got three, and said it was the best thing he did in his team. Being original is fine and all, but sometimes strategy has to take a back seat to the raw stats required to survive a certain encounter.

Lon'qu!Severa has +6 Spd, all those others have +5.

If you want to survive a round of combat with Anna... Getting to 66 Spd is unfeasible so you'll want to go with a dodgetank for this, which unfortunately is going to have trouble hitting 100% Avo due to the -42 from your restrictions. AC had to make do with a slight chance for Anna to actually hit, I believe. You could also try to take her down with Longbows while she's still on the Throne, but there's a high RNG component to this method as well if you don't have enough Staves to bail everyone out afterword and fail to get the KO due to misses and whiffs. Spd itself won't make a difference on your Avo here, you'll need skills and lots of them. If you can get her down within range of a guaranteed Vengeance 2HKO and bail then, that's probably the best/safest way to handle her.

Luna isn't going to be as good as it is normally due to the -20% activation rate. It'll still be an important damage booster but is not the automatic key to making units good anymore.

VV will not work reliably here due to Hitrate and DS issues here. You'll be looking at 80-85% DS rates on most of your units in addition to the Hit problems plaguing everyone (Yarne was my demonstration, but just because he's a Berserker and others aren't doesn't mean they have nothing to worry about). If you're fine with an EP having a >50% chance of death for the VV unit, use it. I'm not fine with that.

Precisely. But even though it's needed it won't be enough- Gregor!Yarne doesn't have a good enough compliment of +Hit skills here. You'll need to use Breakers at the very least, and I'd advise more on top of that. COnsider changing parents to someone with more of them as well.

And you can't change his dad to a Wyvern dad? What is your current pairing plan?

My thoughts on Spd: don't care for it. Who cares if you do 4x damage if the enemy never attacks and you never see the extra 2x damage? On that note, for wave 4 it's nice to double the Falco Knights with Mire (post baiting the mire). This 4x is actually noticeable damage as the enemy doesn't counter. That is the only Spd threshold you should even care about--and even then, Bows and Celica's are foe-effective. You can bank on a single DS% if you miscalculate certain benchmarks by accident.

What's your plan for dealing with Thronie?

[Vascela]

You are flat out wrong if you think Vengeance needs supplement skills. Dual Strike+ and Rallies allow you to field 9 units, but without those you need to field all 20 slots. Hitting 50 Skl is fairly easy--especially post pair up.

Dealing with the Thronie? Snipers; followed by the Sage picking up the kill. It takes turns though, so you have to manage (my setup uses every turn given).

edit: and in case this wasn't clear, I set all values of DS% = 0% as a control. Any variance of random% you want to add is strictly for your entertainment. I'll make it work however K wants it.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Vascela

[Czar_Yoshi]

Vengeance as an offensive skill doesn't (and is pretty much the lifeblood on No DLC/Rally as it's the only way to do any real damage), but if you want to clean house on EP two hits from Vengeance don't quite do the job after all the stat drops.

Say you've got a Sniper with a Double Bow, BF, Tonic and Berserker pairup. It's looking at 78 Atk, which is going to be something like 2 damage against Thronie. Vengeance could add 10-11 more to that if fully charged. The Berserker, assuming a +5 Str mod, AF, Str+2/Tonic and a 5/15 Brave Ave (and actually hitting, which isn't a given even with Axebreaker and Hit+20) has 82 Atk and is doing around 7+7 damage. Alternately, a Sage support with a +5 Mag mod, TF, Mag+2/Tonic and a 5/15 Celica's is looking at 71 Atk, or 8+8 damage. Exactly how many Snipers do you plan to throw at him before finishing with the Sage?

Hitting 50 Skl is pretty easy but is still something that could feasibly not happen and get in your way if you take it for granted and don't bother checking.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[Vascela]

I run 5 Snipers with 1 HP Vengeance with forged long bows. I also use Sniper Chrom, but he's only relevant on the first and last turns of the map.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Well, that would certainly be a way.

I suppose we should just see what TC thinks.

[Vascela]

The big "if" is the consistency factor. If it doesn't matter, than DS% values rise from mine (0%) to a manageable% (at least 70%!). That's a ton of unaccounted for damage that I know doesn't need to be tapped into. Granted, the static and planned for damage values are lower, but you have potentially higher damage in random intervals that DS procs.

Perfectly reasonable trade... assuming the "if" factor.

[omega zero]

How do you get down to 1 HP for Vengeance? Miracle?

[Vascela]

How do you get down to 1 HP for Vengeance? Miracle?

I calculate it and get hit by the enemy. I don't leave anything to chance.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Yeah there's no random component to damage you take once crits, procs and hitrates (and more annoyingly, DGs) are taken into account. It's very possible to manipulate your HP to be whatever you want if you're willing and able to plan far enough ahead. This isn't like Pokemon where the end result of all damage gets a random multiplier from 100% to 85% just to mess with consistency.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[Knusperkeks]

Edited.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[Czar_Yoshi]

There's a difference though between what kinds of bad luck you can have: sometimes it will cause you to miss a KO, and sometimes it causes you to die. So you could have a run that never has you with a chance of death (my goal for runs) but there's still plenty of variation in what can happen, or you can have a run where you have to trust the RNG not to kill you and end your run when it's perfectly capable of doing so.

[Knusperkeks]

Edited.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[Czar_Yoshi]

I don't think DSes are going to be as strong as you think they are. They may hit twice but they're not getting procs or pairup boosts, making them a source of side damage that you can pile up to overwhelm stuff, but not a oneshot. Getting one DS out of four is something that's really likely, but it also makes very little difference.

Also keep in mind that Yarne already has Berserker. He doesn't need Gregor to give that to him.

Maybe it matters for the crazy Berserker? I didn't run the numbers yet, how much Hit does the Berserker have, exactly?

Hawkeye.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[Knusperkeks]

Edited.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Knusperkeks