Want to make a new tier list?

[Yojinbo]

No, I didn't rate Skrimir "above" Tanith.

I put Skrimir in the "super useful but only for limited amount of time"-tier because Skrimir is super useful but only for limited amount of time. Tanith on the other hand is in the "kind useful for some time"-tier because she's kinda useful for some time.

[Irysa]

Where exactly is Skrimir being "super useful" in FE10? The guy is mad overrated considering his durability is overkill, his enemy phase is not great and he's a landlocked Laguz who has to grass or stone his way into a transformation unlike the Royals. There is no way he can be put in the same tier as them. Tanith actually has a shot of being turned into a decent combat unit with enemy phase potential and even without it she flies and has canto. She is definitely not great, and there's an opportunity cost to trying to get her to reach that point, but she actually can achieve it. Skrimir is kinda just "there" and is honestly more filler than anything else.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Irysa

[Radiant head]

Looking at my and dondon's apathy, I don't think "the vets" are invested in this much in the first place.

I didn't say all of them are, but I can't see people who aren't interested in LTC to care either.

[Yojinbo]

Where exactly is Skrimir being "super useful" in FE10? The guy is mad overrated considering his durability is overkill, his enemy phase is not great and he's a landlocked Laguz who has to grass or stone his way into a transformation unlike the Royals. There is no way he can be put in the same tier as them. Tanith actually has a shot of being turned into a decent combat unit with enemy phase potential and even without it she flies and has canto. She is definitely not great, and there's an opportunity cost to trying to get her to reach that point, but she actually can achieve it. Skrimir is kinda just "there" and is honestly more filler than anything else.

Yeah, I guess I can see the point. Not that I care a whole lot but you're probably right.

[Radiant head]

The term "Fail Brigade" still pisses me off since some units have actually better growths than the GM's.

Their only problem is that the enemies are higher levels than in Elincia's and Ike's group.

Growthwise:

Edward > Mia

Nolan > Boyd

The DB is just victim of the unbalanced difficulty in FE10.

They're the victim of only having 3 chapters in Part 3. If anything, the difficulty helps them gain exp to offset that somewhat.

[Moishe Oofnik]

It takes guts to answer to all of this at once シ

You said so yourself: He's god in Part 1. Sarcasm, aside (well, sort of), he's that high because of just how valuable he is to the team in Part 1. He has literally been the key factor to beating all the chapters he was in (barring 1-9 & 1-E, where he was rather secondary), he's irreplacable. As usual, his Late/Endgame performance is overrated- he's been helping out a lot more earlier in the game for that to matter (when strong fliers like Haar and Jill are bound to take over from there, anyway).

Naw, no transfers.

Yep, done. I'm actually reconsidering Mia's position...I still think she's High tier, just not that amazing.

While Nolan is still raising himself throughout Part 1 (because that's what most 1rst tier units are doing at that point), Sothe is carrying most of Part 1 on his back. Nolan's only real contribution are in 1-1 to 1-4, and even then, he's not fundamental like Sothe. I put him up that high because his shining moments should come in Part 3 & 4. Now that I think of it, he's sort of the opposite of Sothe, no?

Yeah, they're all better, barring Boyd. And that's why I put the others over her (barring Oscar, for now), I'm re-considering her position.

Haar saves 4-turns of hell in 2-E alone and then proceeds to be a staple unit in Part 3, being the only flier with actual 2-range and amazing durability and stuff. Jill's only real "advantage" is being better in Endgame, which is like 10% of the game. Late/Endgame performances are overrated, when they only make so little of the game. And even then, Haar's Endgame performance is actually pretty good:

4-E-1: A max Spd Haar (pretty easy, by then) doubles everything but 2 Snipers (28 AS, the fastest there), he has Hammer and/or Brave Axe access (+ Stun) to ensure KO's on enemies he doesn't cleanly 1RKO. Things like low Res is also a problem shared by Ike, but that's why we aim to take out pesky Sleep staff users on Turn 1.

4-E-2: Doesn't matter. Ike 1RKO's BK and it's over.

4-E-3: Neither are making any (if any) significant contribution, unless you were to include killing a Dragon out of the way (Wyvernslayer users/Royals are taking out Dheginsea on Turn 1)

4-E-4: Caineghis/Giffca beat Lehran. Much like last chapter, you may have to take out one or two little balls out of the way and both Jill & Haar can do it (Haar with a Brave Axe). 1-turn.

4-E-5: Probably the only real part Jill has an advantage, if only because she can double Auras with Nasir's aid.

Of course, being a member of the weaker group is not something to handwave. We are giving her big credit for that, it's just that Haar does what he does quite longer, thoughout the whole of Part 3. Jill's only being amazing in her only three Part 3 chapters and in Part 4 where she might as well tie Haar for what it matters.

okay, maybe I did exaggerate by giving him his very own tier. If I were to put him lower, the best I'd see myself doing is deleting his own tier and still putting him over Jill, lol. I just think he's THAT important for Part 1, while Jill is mostly raising herself in Part 1 (and even half of Part 3).

Jill's the best among the DB, lol. And to answer your question, about Mia:

Mia's pretty great at what she does. What does she do? She kills. While many of your characters are having trouble doubling, she's pretty much entitled to Adept (excellent base Spd at doubles everything in Part 3 = great activation rate), a great support-partner in Ike (both get Atk/Avo) and she performs insanely well with a +Crit. forge. Well, what can you make out of this? Ike is better, yeah. That's why he's above her. But basically, she's just great in combat, which makes me re-considering her spot above Oscar...

See what I did there, it's really not that hard. Even if a character were to have horrendous availability like the likes of someone like Tormod or Nailah, their contributions are pretty neat, meaning they aren't Bottom tier just because of that.

I'm also willing to argue that Kyza is not as bad as people ought him to be on the last tier list.

FE10 is an amazing game. シ

big whoop

How did effeciency tier list work, again? Is my criteria alright? A few characters don't exactly save turns, but their mere pressence can make a significant difference in the case of turn-count (secondary characters in 3-P & 3-1).

Overkilling a unit is the same as just normally killing it

which is relativly easy

and I was refering to transfer boyd

Non transfer oscar>Mia

Still

Let me get my point

Sothe can carry the entire Fail bridage but that would hurt you in part 3 where nolan costs nothing to use and should always be fielded and has a great affinity and p3/p4

Look at how I ranked my tier list Jill is the best of the part 1 crew

so Nolans contributions>Mias contributions because while mia stays consistent NOLAN GETS BETTER

Jill has 6 levels of akward and 20 levels of awesome but she joins mid P1 and has 1 chapter of being rather akward as a unit but

Jill in a nutshell

Take Nolan give 5 extra levels give flying deformed pony and not being axelocked(while not really a problem because no weapon trinagle)

You got jill

Nepheene should be madly lower she does what mia does just worse and less consistent

all royals to mid because they dont exist

the diffrence beetween naelsa and tibarn is also preety high

TIBARN>>>>>>>>Naelsa just way better

Edited March 16, 2015 by TTPK_Tal

[Chiki]

Wooow, a lot of false info in this thread, like this:

Haar saves 4-turns of hell in 2-E alone

WHAT??

Anyway, no one in an LTC context argues that, at the very least, Haar > Jill (T) anymore, as I've proven the contrary with my LTC runs. To argue against it would be kinda futile, because Jill (T) gets Boots in an optimal setting, which means that she has a better Part 4 than Haar. It's really that simple. Haar > Jill (N) is possible and I'm open to debating on that.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Chiki

[Junkhead]

The term "Fail Brigade" still pisses me off since some units have actually better growths than the GM's.

Their only problem is that the enemies are higher levels than in Elincia's and Ike's group.

Growthwise:

Edward > Mia

Nolan > Boyd

The DB is just victim of the unbalanced difficulty in FE10.

Unfortunately, better growths don't mean better performance. Not necessarily, anyway.

Overkilling a unit is the same as just normally killing it

which is relativly easy

and I was refering to transfer boyd

Non transfer oscar>Mia

Still

Let me get my point

Sothe can carry the entire Fail bridage but that would hurt you in part 3 where nolan costs nothing to use and should always be fielded and has a great affinity and p3/p4

Look at how I ranked my tier list Jill is the best of the part 1 crew

so Nolans contributions>Mias contributions because while mia stays consistent NOLAN GETS BETTER

Jill has 6 levels of akward and 20 levels of awesome but she joins mid P1 and has 1 chapter of being rather akward as a unit but

Jill in a nutshell

Take Nolan give 5 extra levels give flying deformed pony and not being axelocked(while not really a problem because no weapon trinagle)

You got jill

Nepheene should be madly lower she does what mia does just worse and less consistent

all royals to mid because they dont exist

the diffrence beetween naelsa and tibarn is also preety high

TIBARN>>>>>>>>Naelsa just way better

Mia isn't where I put her because she's overkill. Killing among the GMs isn't exactly as common as you make it out to be. Haar's pretty much entitled to a Speedwings, and Titania doesn't double without means (which translates to not 1RKO'ing). Ike's Spd also isn't amazing, either. His base Spd starts out decent, but even then, he's running trouble into borderline doubling. If Ike's not doubling, and he also lacks anything resembling good 2-range, he might as well cheer for Mia until he gets Ragnell.

Re; Sothe: I never said Sothe's completely taking over and solo maps. He's doing like 80% of the job, doesn't mean he can be everywhere at the same time. You can deploy Jill & Nolan if you want, they'll be useful.

Re; Royals: In Nailah's case, she's that high because I find her contribution at 1-8 & 1-E (especially 1-E) to be pretty invaluable. Then she's also around for Part 4.

Re; Nephenee: She has a shaky Part 2, but she does indeed turn out to be Mia Lite...with 2-range. So she's pretty good, actually.

Re; TIBARN>>>>>>>>Naesala: Why?

Edited March 16, 2015 by The Red Queen

[Mekkah]

I want to address the TTPK Kai's points but they are so poorly structured it hurts my brain so much. =( Please use punctuation, it was given to us for a reason. The return button on your keyboard is not a replacement.

Anyway, no one in an LTC context argues that, at the very least, Haar > Jill (T) anymore

Thankfully, this is not an LTC list, it's efficiency.

okay, maybe I did exaggerate by giving him his very own tier. If I were to put him lower, the best I'd see myself doing is deleting his own tier and still putting him over Jill, lol. I just think he's THAT important for Part 1, while Jill is mostly raising herself in Part 1 (and even half of Part 3).

Jill starts tripping up Sothe as early as 1-6 (both parts), as her movement range allows her to contribute in ways that Sothe cannot. By part 3, it's not even a contest anymore. So Sothe clearly wins 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 1-8, it's closer for 1-6, 1-7 and 1-E. Then Jill wins 3-6, 3-12, 3-13, 4-P, 4-3, and endgame. Personally, I'd give the edge to Jill.

Titania and Ike are obviously harder to compare to Sothe, but you're overrating Sothe amongst the DB or underrating those two. Sothe's reign of terror does not last forever. From 1-6 on, he is surrounded by units at least equal (Zihark, Jill, Muarim, Tormod) or better (Volug, Nailah, Tauroneo, Black Knight). Yes, he is better than the low level tier 1 scrubs, but who cares?

Meanwhile, Ike is a no strings attached killing machine, and as you go down the list of GMs they start to have more and more strings attached. Most GMs either lack the AS to double or the Atk to 2HKO, but Ike does not. Haar, Titania, Gatrie and Boyd all need some if not a lot of help to double. Shinon has comparable parameters but a terrifail class. Mia and Nephenee don't 2HKO. If you want, we even have some equivalents of Edward/Leonardo to compare Ike's combat to in Rhys, Mist and Rolf.

tl;dr don't treat Sothe like a god

Edited March 16, 2015 by Mekkah

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

They're the victim of only having 3 chapters in Part 3. If anything, the difficulty helps them gain exp to offset that somewhat.

Unfortunately, better growths don't mean better performance. Not necessarily, anyway.

Yeah the liberation army is really disadvantaged in several points:

• bad availibilty (in part 3 75% less availibility than the GM's)
• tougher enemies
• weapons (forging only possible in part 1)
• some bad units (Leonardo in earlygame, Sothe in lategame, Micaiah in most part of the game)
• low exp. gain and bad caps (Laura)

At least they have a paragon scroll, which benefits several units.

[Radiant head]

• some bad units (Leonardo in earlygame, Sothe in lategame, Micaiah in most part of the game)

Yeah I found out recently that Fiona can actually be like an Oscar who can double spirits. Real shame that her bases are so horrid.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Fiona and Meg aren't bad units growthwise.

Though they join at a point with pathetic bases.

They will be doubled by everything in hard mode.

[Florete]

Lol you rated Skrimir above Tanith. What the fuck. Tibarn and Naesala are debatable, although I don't want to get into a pissing contest about that, but how is Skrimir better than Tanith?

Assuming hard mode, Skrimir > Tanith easily.

Like wow, I would sooner say, "Lol you rated Tanith above Skrimir. What the fuck." Skrimir has good durability (unlike Tanith who dies to anything with a Bow), hits like a truck and can even double after a couple points of Speed that he might not get in hard mode but is still worth noting (although if you have a Speedwing saved it works wonders for him) (unlike Tanith as she starts with the same Str base as Oscar, a character who had a hard time getting his own kills back in 3-P), and has good mobility. Lack of 2 range is meaningless compared to Tanith since hers is awful, she does shit all in her extra two maps, and Micaiah's group is the best place for either of them so it doesn't particularly matter that Skrimir is forced there. Grassing is a minor issue because Lions have a slow-reducing gauge and it's only a couple maps before Laguz Gems are available.

Now if it's transfer Tanith or normal mode, she has a better case, but vanilla Tanith against Skrimir in hard mode is a lost cause. Being decent filler is better than requiring whatever resources Tanith needs to be killing Sages reliably.

[Junkhead]

Actually, Skrimir doubles about 90% of 4-P. There's only like one or two Warriors (and the boss, with 25 AS) who break 22 AS.

[Florete]

Actually, Skrimir doubles about 90% of 4-P. There's only like one or two Warriors (and the boss, with 25 AS) who break 22 AS.

Oh, you're correct. I must have forgotten that. He needs 30 Spd (+2 from base) to reliably double most enemies in 4-3.

[Junkhead]

I forgot to list Volug, lol. Not sure where to put him, with how the "metagame" has advanced. I'm thinking Upper Mid.

[CT075]

volug's in that weird place where he's pretty much always really strong (ie 1-6 where he's sothe but better), falls off (I've never understood how he can apparently be strong in 1-E; he doesn't seem to do significant damage to anything he doubles and doesn't double anything he does a lot of damage to besides lolmages), then is suddenly godlike again when he can fullshift. i'd probably rank him roughly in the same place as sothe (probably one or two spots higher)

[Chiki]

Thankfully, this is not an LTC list, it's efficiency.

LTC is playing as efficiently as possible. That's not a bad thing! Anyway, no intelligent person is going to take seriously your incredibly vague and subjective idea of efficiency. You should talk to your friend dondon about this; you can tell from his posts that he agrees with me.

Also, Tanith is way better than Skrimir, as my run has shown. She's an unfortunately underrated unit.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Chiki

[Yojinbo]

If we're going by LTC standards then 50%+ of the units in this game would be bottom or low tier because they contribute virtually nothing or have like one or two chapters where they can/have to help [usually because they're forced]. Nephenee would be equally worthless as Edward because both only actually do stuff in like 1.5 chapters at best. I think that'd be kind of a strange way to look at it because Nephenee is clearly a better unit.

Like honestly, I don't actually think there's a better way to rank characters than by how much they contribute to a low turn count. It's still sub-par though imo. I just don't think FE10 is a game where a tier list makes a lot of sense.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Yojinbo

[dondon151]

Supporting this list goes against me in every way, both real and projected. I just want to see what they come up with on their own without input from the vets.

they're going to come up with approximately the same thing as the 2009 tier list, which means that there are no "new ideas" to be discussed. these are literally old ideas that have your approval. you approve of discussion that excludes veterans because you're tired of being constantly ridiculed for your atrocious argumentative abilities, and rather than attempting to elevate yourself to their level, you'd much prefer to bring them down to your level.

LTC is playing as efficiently as possible. That's not a bad thing! Anyway, no intelligent person is going to take seriously your incredibly vague and subjective idea of efficiency. You should talk to your friend dondon about this; you can tell from his posts that he agrees with me.

but i don't agree with you. you know as well as i do that the lowest of LTC strategies require a substantial amount of luck. you're probably not inclined to admit that haar saves turns in 2-E because you can 1-turn with a stun proc from elincia, except elincia starts 2-E in bad/worst bio (don't recall which) and she has a 6%/1% chance to proc stun.

[Eselred]

The term "Fail Brigade" still pisses me off since some units have actually better growths than the GM's.

Their only problem is that the enemies are higher levels than in Elincia's and Ike's group.

Growthwise:

Edward > Mia

Nolan > Boyd

The DB is just victim of the unbalanced difficulty in FE10.

Bases > Growths, because you always have bases, whereas you have to hope that RNG favors you so you keep pace with your growths. You also have to invest time and resources into making growths do something, while bases are just there and take no effort or investment.

It's not just that the Dawn Brigade are some of the worst units in the game that are forced in your face all the time and need to be babysat so they don't go splat. They're also some of the most annoying and uninteresting characters in Fire Emblem history. Finally, Micaiah is not only one of the worst units in RD, but also one of the worst lords ever.

Hence, The Fail Brigade, because they fail on all levels. RD would be my favorite FE game by far if the DB were simply a prologue/tutorial like Lyn mode, and the rest of the real game focused on Ike and his crew. Alas...

Edited March 16, 2015 by Eselred

[Irysa]

Assuming hard mode, Skrimir > Tanith easily.

Like wow, I would sooner say, "Lol you rated Tanith above Skrimir. What the fuck." Skrimir has good durability (unlike Tanith who dies to anything with a Bow), hits like a truck and can even double after a couple points of Speed that he might not get in hard mode but is still worth noting (although if you have a Speedwing saved it works wonders for him) (unlike Tanith as she starts with the same Str base as Oscar, a character who had a hard time getting his own kills back in 3-P), and has good mobility. Lack of 2 range is meaningless compared to Tanith since hers is awful, she does shit all in her extra two maps, and Micaiah's group is the best place for either of them so it doesn't particularly matter that Skrimir is forced there. Grassing is a minor issue because Lions have a slow-reducing gauge and it's only a couple maps before Laguz Gems are available.

Now if it's transfer Tanith or normal mode, she has a better case, but vanilla Tanith against Skrimir in hard mode is a lost cause. Being decent filler is better than requiring whatever resources Tanith needs to be killing Sages reliably.

That's the exact problem though, Skrimir is primarily filler for the few maps he'll be deployed on and nothing more. He might periodically like help out a bit but he can't actually be a large contributor, even with some help. I am not here to argue that Skrimir is a bad unit, he is just nowhere near "super useful" like Yojinbo rated him.

Like, consider how much investment Jill needs to get to the point she's at in the tierlist, then consider that people actually argue her above Haar despite that ridiculous amount of investment required. If this is a precedent, someone like Tanith who is actually extremely salvagable can't be considered all that bad.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Irysa

[Florete]

That's the exact problem though, Skrimir is primarily filler for the few maps he'll be deployed on and nothing more. He might periodically like help out a bit but he can't actually be a large contributor, even with some help. I am not here to argue that Skrimir is a bad unit, he is just nowhere near "super useful" like Yojinbo rated him.

Like, consider how much investment Jill needs to get to the point she's at in the tierlist, then consider that people actually argue her above Haar despite that ridiculous amount of investment required. If this is a precedent, someone like Tanith who is actually extremely salvagable can't be considered all that bad.

I responded to you asking "How is Skrimir better than Tanith?" I don't consider Tanith terrible (at least with transfers; in HM without transfers Tanith is, at best, tough to use), but "extremely salvageable" isn't a very good situation for someone who joins in 3-11.

[Irysa]

If you mean the other way around I'm explictly saying that Skrimir is a moderately helpful unit who has pretty negligble contributions and pretty much can't get better than that. He is a filler unit who might kill a few enemies, that's kinda it. Tanith is a moderately helpful unit who (admittedly with a buttload of favouritism) can be made into a competant combat unit.

Again, I beg the question - how is resource allocation supposed to be factored into this list? If Jill is lowered because she needs all those resources to operate to full potential then I don't see a problem but hypothetically speaking if you pump like, half of the Beorc units in this game with the stuff Jill is getting then they can also become strong. Not as strong mind, so Jill is definitely better, but the problem with resource allocation is that we can't just give it to everyone. Are we basically penalising everyone who isn't Jill for just not being quite as helpful as she is? The whole "Top tier" "High tier" stuff is too vague, I feel like there needs to be a distinction for units that basically require nothing/minimal investment or effort to be effective (Haar) and units who need to be given a lot of resources to be good. Or else, we need to just flat out assume that we're using a particular inflexible team composition to indicate as such.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Irysa

[Florete]

I'm not gonna try to explain the rules of the list, I just don't see any scenario in which vanilla Tanith is better than Skrimir.

Skrimir can put in a lot more work than you're assuming, though. As noted above, he can double (and kill) a lot of 4-P enemies, and with a Speedwing (if you're giving Tanith resources, surely one wing can be saved for Simba) he can do the same to 4-3. He's easily better all around in 4-E.