video series FE6 Reverse Recruitment Low Turns

[BBM]

Pretty sure Karel will be trained; with his amazing growths most of his bases should actually be in the negative, but they have to stop at 0. So he'll cap out all his stats pretty easily.

Also I think it was Vennobennu who gave the hex editor advice, not me, @espinosa

[General Horace]

The only issue with training Karel (at least extensively) is that he can't really kill bosses (which is what he'd be good for), since he'll want to seize after the boss is killed. This obviously isn't a problem if you drop him in front of the boss and he kills them on the enemy phase, but at the end of the day getting him experience will be kinda tough since he's still a 5-6 move unit that has to be carted around everywhere, and as a result won't get as much experience as he wants.

Edited March 31, 2015 by General Horace

[BBM]

I have to ask though, what does everyone see in Lugh? He currently tops the dark horse (which doesn't feature the most impressive units in the patch, I'll give you that). I understand he's an evasive guy with great HM bonuses and magical damage, which makes him perfect for taking on many different enemy types, and probably not a bad bosskiller (again, what some newcomers like praising him and Lilina for being), but he still only has 6 move and he still only has C staves, which is not enough to use Physic off that huge mag stat (not Niime-huge either though).

Also I agree with this; there should definitely be more Sophia votes. Sophia should become the main warper of this run IMO

[Lord Raven]

The only issue with training Karel (at least extensively) is that he can't really kill bosses (which is what he'd be good for), since he'll want to seize after the boss is killed. This obviously isn't a problem if you drop him in front of the boss and he kills them on the enemy phase, but at the end of the day getting him experience will be kinda tough since he's still a 5-6 move unit that has to be carted around everywhere, and as a result won't get as much experience as he wants.

I mean, if you can get Lilina massive EXP, then I'm convinced Karel can get something from the Western Isles.

EDIT: You also must have Karel get EXP for a 5 turn of 8x, and you may be able to achieve that 5 turn a little easier with a Wyvern Lord Zeiss using Noah's Killer Lance. He needs to be able to kill a fighter that gets in the way.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Lord Raven

[General Horace]

slightly irrelevant but Noah won't have been recruited by then

I don't think Espinosa does full recruitment either.

[Lord Raven]

Oh you're right, although I think you need like a Steel Lance crit off a 1% crit rate then. It's extremely stupid and I doubt he's willing to do that.

[Espinosa]

I think a very warm feeling comes, when training Karel, when you realise that you're not training Roy. Good Lord was that a chore in vanilla LTC. Hopefully he can proc those 2-point str/spd gains to stop being doubled soon, and he really needs the strength ASAP because, as everyone knows, the enemies get really bulky around chapter 4 or so (hence the fabled Wolt 1-2 chip damage brought up in tier discussions).

I'm not doing full recruitment but I do have to recruit and keep some people alive, namely:

- Allen and Echidna (=Yuno and Zealot to go to 20xA)

- Clarine and Fa (=Miledy and Zeiss to go to 21x)

It does look like I might be skipping Noah though, as I should have two promoted fliers to clear his chapter more quickly. Guess I'm missing Astohl (Klein's replacement), too. This is kinda bad news, I think, because Cath (Rutger's replacement) isn't recruited either (I hope I can clear chapter 4 a lot more quickly than that but we'll see what happens) so until Chad joins in the desert, there won't be any thieving going around. There's not a whole lot to steal though (just a Red Gem and some Lockpicks), and Cecilia does come with her own Chest Key + Unlock Staff.

Oh, and I can't have Noah's Killer Lance by chapter 8x at all, because Tate is switching join time with him.

[Lord Raven]

They should do RR with trial map characters too - Zephiel swoops in and tries to stop you in Chapter 21, while Hector guards the throne. Meanwhile, Gale is your final test, and Eliwood protects the dragon shine in Bern's final stand. Also, Guinevere is guarding the Etrurian throne in Chapter 16.

[Yojinbo]

It does look like I might be skipping Noah though, as I should have two promoted fliers to clear his chapter more quickly. Guess I'm missing Astohl (Klein's replacement), too. This is kinda bad news, I think, because Cath (Rutger's replacement) isn't recruited either (I hope I can clear chapter 4 a lot more quickly than that but we'll see what happens) so until Chad joins in the desert, there won't be any thieving going around. There's not a whole lot to steal though (just a Red Gem and some Lockpicks), and Cecilia does come with her own Chest Key + Unlock Staff.

Oh, and I can't have Noah's Killer Lance by chapter 8x at all, because Tate is switching join time with him.

What do you need a Thief for anyway? You can buy Chest Keys and Door Keys in the 7 and 11A Vendor

If you skip Noah you won't get the Elysian Whip for keeping his goons alive [same thing for the Orion Bolt you'd get for keeping Astohl's squad alive. Both would be kinda useful to promote an additional flyer and one of Dayan/Shin for Ch.13] but that's pretty much the only downside you'd get from skipping him. It also means that Sophia needs more Exp but that shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Yojinbo

[Espinosa]

You can't steal enemy items with keys, though I guess it's not until chapter 16 that it matters much (Delphi Shield, Blue Gem and 2 Red Gems can all be stolen), and you always have lv. 20 Chad with decent staying power by that point.

I'm actually pretty worried about monetary things at the moment. Boots are a must (and I have to think how the presence of two dancers affects what movement I need on everyone in the endgame), and I should also probably consider buying promotion items because I complete maps like chapter 11 far too quickly and stat boosters because my staff users have such awful magic. Cecilia and Ellen at least level up at a pretty decent pace when promoted, but getting them combat and level-ups won't be easy... especially taking the expected speed of chapter completion into account.

[Vennobennu]

I'll probably mod/hack my ROM when I get into the game... I needn't start from scratch after I do that, right? Cause I'd rather not worry about that at the moment. I dicked around with a Hex Editor a couple years ago, but don't really remember anything anymore. It does sound simple from BBM's description though.

- Also, Echidna (replacing Zealot) comes at lv. 13 unpromoted and apparently promotes to Warrior. Can't I just change the promotion route with some simple readymade editor? I bet I'll just use the Hero Crest on Karel and sell the next one, anyway, so that sounds like futile effort.

You don't have to restart after modifying the ROM - the changes won't have any impact on your current progress or any such thing.

Changing Echidna's promotion route is simple, yes - all you need is the Nightmare program and the modules for FE6 - from there, open up your FE6 ROM, and go to the FE6 Class Editor module; under the entry for Fighter, change the field "This class promotes to" to Hero (F) instead of Warrior. This would also make Bartre promote in Hero (F), but he's even less likely to see promotion than Echidna in your run, so...

[Gwimpage]

I think you're 1 con short of BodyRing!Elphin being able to carry unpromoted Karel, in which case the dancers could just move all the way to the throne/gate. lol

[Espinosa]

Unpromoted Karel does have good enough bosskilling potential at lv. 20 or so... But the second Body Ring is not available until the chapter 21 secret shop, at which point it probably doesn't feasibly shave any turns off anymore.

I'm having way more trouble with chapter 3 than I should right now. Not sure if it's genuinely hard or it's just that I haven't FE'd for over a year. The archers limit my enemy phases and I keep having to rescue more characters than I can carry without slowing myself down. Zeiss gets sniped too easily and I actually have to carry him with Yuno at one point to keep him alive.

For what it's worth, Yuno can drop Karel in seize range on turn 4, but he's exposed to just about every enemy in range including a Fighter and two Cav reinforcements with weak stats. With only one level gained up till that point, there's not much he can do to defend himself statwise. I guess I should settle for six turns, and see how I could slow down / retract my movement a bit to make the most out of those turns.

It's kind of a mess so far. Really shows you weren't intended to play the game with this kind of army at this point.

edit: oh and thanks for the detailed description of the whole procedure, Venno.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Espinosa

[PKL]

Yoooo Espinosa. Nice to see you're back bro! :) Did taking a break for one year off FE renew your interest for the series?

[chococoke]

I think I'm most excited to see Karel's level ups

[Espinosa]

I was finally able to 6-turn chapter 3 without any low crit rigging and whatnot. Had to really pull myself together and stretch my brain, but now I'm not anywhere as rusty with my playing anymore and the chapter rewarded me with some killer level-ups too!

It's quite a shame how a 12 atk Javelin cav reinforcement appearing in that chapter OHKOs Karel, though...

Yoooo Espinosa. Nice to see you're back bro! :) Did taking a break for one year off FE renew your interest for the series?

Actually, I was googling something unrelated to FE which (for whatever reason) lead me to a topic on this forum. I clicked on some subforums and saw your thread on the New Mystery 0% growths, which captured my attention and got me to thinking about all sorts of FE-related things. And then a few days later a voice in my head said something like 'hey remember that RR patch you applied some years back; start an LTC run and see what will happen with an earlygame party of 0 stat Karel/Niime/Yuno/Dayan, it'll be fun huh'.

Hope your FE12 run will be lifted from the planning stage soon, too!

I think I'm most excited to see Karel's level ups

It's been really hard feeding him exp so far. In chapter 4 right now, it doesn't look like he can even dent many of the enemies. Tough luck. No idea how to go about the bosskilling efficiently without having to wait for Cath and her Killing Edge either.

I guess if I am forced to wait until Cath shows up (in Rutger's stead), I might as well try dropping Karel unto a fort down south to see if he has any luck soloing the Fighters there.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Espinosa

[Espinosa]

Oh yeah, guess who's 5-turning chapter 4? Don't think I've ever had a chance to do that on any playthrough (I think, not quite sure how many turns it was in Girls Only Normal Mode).

The last stretch of it was brutal though (as will be any archer-infested area before getting the Delphi Shield, I expect), and I'm still trying to figure out who I want to gain the boss exp and how.

What are the repercussions of missing the Mend staff in chapter 3? I do know I can just buy one or just use the Heal staff more. There's no Saul that I'd appreciate the +1 exp (I believe that was the difference) per heal on, and Ellen will gain more exp by fighting and using Warp when she joins...

Edited April 2, 2015 by Espinosa

[Irysa]

How exactly are you planning on killing the Chapter 5 boss without a Killing Edge? I guess Yuno can Silver Sword him or something, but he's pretty beefy. Actually now that I think about it, I suppose you can actually 3 turn it without ever triggering reinforcements, but lol @ Karel's chance of not dying.

Also, I apologise if it hasn't been noted, but I'm assuming you're not suicidedropping in this run at all?

I thought I'd posted in this thread already, oops. May as well give a belated welcome back, your playthroughs are always enjoyable to follow.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Irysa

[Espinosa]

How exactly are you planning on killing the Chapter 5 boss without a Killing Edge? I guess Yuno can Silver Sword him or something, but he's pretty beefy. Actually now that I think about it, I suppose you can actually 3 turn it without ever triggering reinforcements, but lol @ Karel's chance of not dying.

Also, I apologise if it hasn't been noted, but I'm assuming you're not suicidedropping in this run at all?

I thought I'd posted in this thread already, oops. May as well give a belated welcome back, your playthroughs are always enjoyable to follow.

I start attacking him on turn 3 by dropping Hugh to the east of the castle. Yuno (+1 str) has 9 atk with the Silver Sword on him; Zeiss (also +1 atk) attacking with Miledy's Steel Lance has 8 atk and 25 displayed hit / 12 true. Meanwhile, Hugh (+2 mag) has an accurate chip of 12 damage to offer; however, he dies very easily.

I ended up feeding the bosskill to Yuno since the quality of Zeiss's level-ups takes priority over their quantity. I hope she can continue being useful because Miledy doesn't impress much, and is definitely losing to Zeiss for being the party's main flier for combat purposes (she isn't that hot without HM bonuses).

If by "suicidebombing" you mean having units carrying others kill themselves unto enemies to give the party an extra turn; no, I'm not doing that, though I do appreciate the planning such an approach would demand. I doubt any of us would attempt such a consistent run, besides maybe Toothache. In general, I won't let anyone get killed in this run, as usual.

And thanks; great to see you've been playing FE so seriously now, too.

Trying out chapter 5 right now. Have a look what having a brigand in this party can accomplish at this point of the game (it's useless of course):

It's pretty likely a turn or two will be lost due to the lack of a Killing Edge, but if Yuno can get a speed proc before then, she will be able to double the boss with her Silver Sword. If Dayan scores a speed proc too, he can double with his Steel Bow for 6x2 dmg (~40 displayed hit), and Hugh also has a decent and accurate chip.

The biggest problem is handling all the enemies that spawn in the middle and keeping scrub Karel alive (he's still much worse than a base level Roy), but I guess I do have 3 fliers (and a Brigand?) to help me have a go at that possible 3-turn.

[Achelexus]

Pretty interesting, but is it actually more challenging than playing the game normally? Or is it all about the novelty? Karel's stats suck arse, but with over 100% growth rates, isn't he just gonna be capped at everything at level 20?

[Espinosa]

Chapter 2 (4 turns) is uploaded!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHy_ruriqHA

Pretty interesting, but is it actually more challenging than playing the game normally? Or is it all about the novelty? Karel's stats suck arse, but with over 100% growth rates, isn't he just gonna be capped at everything at level 20?

It's a low-turns runthrough and as such it's sure to challenge me. There will be new objectives and new contexts created by the fact the army formation is so different, so I can still only guess what it'll be like several maps in. You're right that some of the earlygame units are a bit too good in contrast to what you get in vanilla, but their presence won't last very long. Presumably the pacing will be much faster beginning with map 7 when I recruit Lalum.

Karel has been nothing but a nuisance thus far, and I really don't think he'll be levelling until level 20 when there's the chapter 7 Hero Crest available (it's unlikely he'll be ready to use it right off the bat considering how little space for growth he gets in an LTC run, however). I'll definitely want to use that for better movement, sword rank and 30% crit - of course the promo bonuses will help me, too.

[Mekkah]

"What I'm asking is where the princess is!"

Sorry, she's in another castle.

[Achelexus]

Chapter 2 (4 turns) is uploaded!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHy_ruriqHA

It's a low-turns runthrough and as such it's sure to challenge me. There will be new objectives and new contexts created by the fact the army formation is so different, so I can still only guess what it'll be like several maps in. You're right that some of the earlygame units are a bit too good in contrast to what you get in vanilla, but their presence won't last very long. Presumably the pacing will be much faster beginning with map 7 when I recruit Lalum.

Karel has been nothing but a nuisance thus far, and I really don't think he'll be levelling until level 20 when there's the chapter 7 Hero Crest available (it's unlikely he'll be ready to use it right off the bat considering how little space for growth he gets in an LTC run, however). I'll definitely want to use that for better movement, sword rank and 30% crit - of course the promo bonuses will help me, too.

Well OFC he's been a nuisance so far, he has 0 in most stats, that's harder to baby than your early game pegasus knights, still, with over 100% growth in all stats, and over 200% HP growth, I don't see him not becoming your strongest unit in a few levels.

Another thing, do you think you could add commentary to your videos? I think it would be more entertaining if you could explain your train of thoughts for the strategies in each chapter.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Achelexus

[Espinosa]

Those few levels will take a long while to kick in, though. Assuming that Karel gets the minimum possible stats each level up until lv. 10 (where it becomes possible to promote him), his 10/0 stats pre-promotion will be 26 hp/11 str/14 skl/9 spd/9 lck/9 def/9 res. We will definitely want some +2s to proc, namely in speed to turn him into a doubling machine but it will take a lot of time. It's not a sober thing to underestimate how hard it is to baby such a weak unit in LTC context. Even when Karel reaches promotion, others are probably already much stronger because they actually had a continuous capacity to gain experience during enemy phase and gained experience because they could really fight rather than because we wanted them to level up.

I do hope that he will become the party's Rutger disguised as a lord around midgame, but we can't know how that goes until we get there. So far (and that's before double dancers has become a thing), Rutger has gained an average of a level per two chapters, and that's not a lot at all. With the two dancers in, Karel technically needn't end a single turn in somebody's saddle (the only one who will have to get dropped near the gate/throne is a dancer, and even then they can dance each other to the place where Karel will get dropped) so he might get to fight more often. At the same time, two dancers means faster clears and who knows how that changes the viability of each individual character.

As for commentary, I haven't got a working mic right now (and a cheap one probably wouldn't do for the purposes of commentating either), and I really do prefer typing up the descriptions in this kind of video challenge presentation because it becomes so easy to skim through the thing to find details that you were really curious about, as well as when returning to a video/chapter you've already watched/read about. It's just so much more efficient.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Espinosa

[Lord Raven]

"What I'm asking is where the princess is!"

Sorry, she's in another castle.

My favorite is that villager that says "Hey hey!" and I always expect her to go "ITS KRUSTY THE KLOWN!"