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FE6 Reverse Recruitment Low Turns

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37 members have voted

  1. 1. Who will be the run's MVP?

  2. 2. (tick multiple) "Dark horses" worth investing into / deploying whenever possible?



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YouTube playlist with all videos uploaded thus far:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbSv8zSDR9c0vdilWtzzTZ-LQnP2krgFm

It's been approximately a year since I last visited the forums so I don't have a very clear understanding of the new topic division criteria, but, as far as I understood it, posting to specific game subforums (as opposed to the LP forum) is advised when the focus isn't on socialisation but rather development of intricate strategies and planning closely intertwining with the games' mechanics, enemy behaviour and other peculiarities. Mods reading this are free to correct me if necessary.

(will insert YouTube playlist here when there is a sufficient number of videos to make one)

I'll just copy the description off YouTube here:

Seasoned FE fans will recognise this, but 'Reverse Recruitment' is a Fire Emblem patch (made by Paperblade afaik) where characters join the party in reversed order - that is, the Gotoh character is now your Lord and vice versa, which applies to the rest of the large FE cast joining the team. In the challenge run showcased, Karel replaces Roy, Yuno is now the Jeigan instead of Marcus (a prepromoted flier from chapter 1!) and Allen/Lance/Wolt/Bors are replaced with Niime/Yodel/Dayan/Douglas. Their stats are deduced in a very specific way - their growths are subtracted from their vanilla base stats until their levels match the characters they're supposed to be replac

I generally have excessively lengthy video descriptions covering the video log on YouTube (applies not only to this PT but all those other challenges I've done throughout the years), so, while I will go in-depth with things bothering me in this topic, more detailed analyses and things generally easier for newcomers to grasp can be found by following the embedded video to its YouTube page with an elaborate description up.

The reversed characters' base stats (and the characters they replace) courtesy of Lord Raven

Chapter 1 video (5 turns; 3 definitely possible via manipulation as seen in the screenshot below the post):

I did try to have Yuno carry Karel all the way north, and she was able to carry Karel to a place where he can seize on turn 3. Yuno needed to get sniped by an Archer prior to crossing the river (easily accomplished when weighed down), causing the Archer to attack her instead of Karel, and Karel also dodged two 63s from one of the Fighters (each axe swing OHKOing his 8HP/0DEF with ease).

29wmge1.jpg

However, Yuno needed a 4% crit to ORKO the boss on turn 3, and such an RN wasn't available. Various players have their own preference towards RNG exploitation and, while my playthrough very much deals with the RNG (or vice versa rather; it's hard to say, between the RNG and me, who is owning whom), I refuse to do the really TAS-like RNG burns (or any movement manipulation to rig stuff at all). Sticking to this rule ("no visible path manipulation") ensures that I'm not expected to do stuff like have a weakling dodge an enemy phase of impossibly overpowered enemy units, critting a bunch of them in counterattack and gaining a few perfect levels (though I'd obviously kill for a situation when the RNG just happened to give me such a turn out of the blue). Without forcing my views upon anyone, I just feel such a playstyle is a bit distant from the actual playing of Fire Emblem "as it is", so the low turn direction of the run is secondary to the playstyle chosen herein. Because I enjoy low-turning (which I've taken a long break from) and I enjoy playing FE "as it is".

I haven't progressed very far yet - I've done chapter 2, then redone it again by conserving Armorslayer uses (a ridiculously finite and invaluable item when Oujay doesn't bring a second one at all, and the Hammer can be effectively used - i.e. by a mounted unit - only by promoted Percival for an extremely long period of the runthrough.

I have a lot of concerns that will be expressed at length in my further posts here, and, as per usual, I welcome all feedback, input and other comments related to the playthrough showcased here.

Perhaps the most pressing issues to be addressed as soon as possible would be:

- how to prevent the manually promoted Karel from demoting during chapter 21. I believe I have to cut something out of the game with a program that is possibly called an "event editor" but that's about all I know about this based on intuition alone.

- with three competent fliers in the party, I'm looking forward to going to Illia rather than Sacae with its awful maps, nomads and terribad hit rates. However, I haven't establishes whether it's the levels of the original characters (Sue/Shin and Thany/Tate) that determines one's route or the levels of their replacements. The latter would be difficult considering Elphin, one of the two simultaneously available dancers, joins at lv. 1 and is most certainly seeing heavy usage. It is dubious whether Sophia (Thany's replacement) and Noah (Tate's replacement) can compensate for the amount of experience Elphin gets (should he co-operate with Lalum for double-dancer strategies or even level up to lv. 20 together with Lalum for more reliable hyper-offensive chapter clears).

I put up a poll with some potential things of note to be pondered.

[spoiler=Current turn counts]

C1   5 turns
C2   4 turns
C3   6 turns
C4   5 turns
C5   4 turns
C6   4 turns
C7   5 turns
C8   8 turns
C8x  3 turns
C9   3 turns
C10  3 turns
C11  2 turns
C12  3 turns
C12x 3 turns
C13  3 turns
C14  2 turns
C14x 2 turns
C15  2 turns
C16  3 turns
C16x 2 turns
C17s 2 turns
C18s 2 turns
C19s 2 turns

[spoiler=Stat boosters]

4  Angelic Robe - hoarding
11 Speedwings - sold
13 Body Ring - Elphin
14 Boots - Zeiss
14 Talisman - sold
14 Speedwings - hoarding

[spoiler=Promotions]

7  Hero Crest - Karel
8  Knight Crest - Percival
8  Guiding Ring - Clarine
8  Elysian Whip - Zeiss
11 Orion Bolt - Dayan
12 Elysian Whip - Miledy
14 Guiding Ring - sold
15 Knight Crest - sold
Edited by Espinosa

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Welcome back to the forums. We've missed your presence here. I'm going to keep up with these videos, sadly I lack experience with RR to give any helpful advice. I just derped when I played around with it.

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I know that in FE7 RR the Kenneth/Jerme split, as well as all other events, depend on the units who replaced the original units, not the original units. So it's the characters who replace Erk/Lucius/etc vs the characters who replace Dorcas/Bartre/etc, not those characters themselves, who decide where you go.

While I haven't played FE6 RR very far in, I would assume it's the same, so it's probably going to be Sophia and Noah vs Elphin and whoever replaces Shin (Barth?). Sorry. :(:

EDIT: that's just why SOPHIA should be the dark horse everyone votes for. IN SOPHIA WE TRUST

Edited by BBM

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Good to have you back!


Perhaps the most pressing issues to be addresses as soon as possible would be:

- how to prevent the manually promoted Karel from demoting during chapter 21. I believe I have to cut something out of the game with a program that is possibly called an "event editor" but that's about all I know about this based on intuition alone.

Stopping that is simple; at the end of Chapter 21x (or Chapter 21 if you didn't unlock 21x) the game makes a call to an ASM routine that promotes Roy to the promoted version of his class. The command is ASMC 0x6D0E5 in the event file, but you can undo this in a hex editor as well.

To remove it using a hex editor, search for the hex string 17 00 00 00 E5 D0 06 08 in your FE6 ROM; you should find two instances, one at 0x6720B8 and one at 0x675FC4; replace both of these instances with 02 00 00 00 10 00 00 00, and that will remove the autopromotion.

Edit: And yeah it's the replacements' levels that determine the Ilia/Sacae route split.

Edited by Vennobennu

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I had actually considered doing a FE6 RR LTC run myself some time ago but decided to go with an FE4 LTC instead. I'm definitely looking forward to this and can probably give some input on stuff.

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I was wondering if you were actually going to post this here.

I think it might have been better to find a way to give Karel a bit more experience in chapter 1 though, the faster he doesn't get oneshotted and gains actual avoid the better. Looking forward to this regardless.

I'm also not a fan of how weapon ranks were handled in this patch either. "Lugh has D tomes, better give Percival C Swords and D lances because he was awesome in vanilla!!!"

Same deal with Miledy, and giving Astohl (who replaces Klein) E swords, but giving Chad A swords when replacing Cecilia. It's just stupid.

Edited by General Horace

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Let me know if there's any inaccuracies in that doc.

Also, not sure if you haven't already been doing this, but you can hold A on enemy phase to speed up enemy movement. The enemy movement looks a little sluggish to me. You don't need to time A or w/e

Edited by Lord Raven

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Weapon Ranks in RR are kind of a mess anyway. You can easily have 3 A-Staff users by 16x which allows for some pretty ridiculous 1-turn and 2-turn strategies.

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Well the thing is that you still only get one warp staff. It's not like having a bunch of A-rank staff users will magically save a turn that you couldn't otherwise save with like Saul + Lalum.

If you're going for cumulative low turn counts then past like 7 warp charges every charge saves only a turn.

Edited by Lord Raven

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I just think they should stay consistant to what the weapon ranks were in the Vanilla game, it's just sloppily made imo.

Hugh's replacement randomly promotes, and in addition has double A weapon ranks too. Zeiss replaces Dieck, but Dieck doesn't replace Zeiss. It's just not very consistant.

It's still a fun patch nontheless though.

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Welcome back Espibrosa, good to have you.

How key are supports for you?

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Well the thing is that you still only get one warp staff. It's not like having a bunch of A-rank staff users will magically save a turn that you couldn't otherwise save with like Saul + Lalum.

If you're going for cumulative low turn counts then past like 7 warp charges every charge saves only a turn.

You can trade the warp staff around though. 16x for example can easily be one-turned by having Saul/Ellen/Clarine warp up Karel to the boss and then somebody else warps up Lalum or Elphin to refresh Karel after he kills the boss. You can probably do a lot of stuff like that in other chapters though you'll probably have to rig a couple of magic procs on level ups, I dunno.

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Hey :)

I do believe it was Paperblade who made it but he did it pretty quickly.

I'll be following this.

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It is dubious whether Sophia (Thany's replacement) and Noah (Tate's replacement) can compensate for the amount of experience Elphin gets

DO IT

I guess it will be fun :B):

:Sophia:

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Thanks everyone!

I just reached out for my FE WoD bookmark just to find the site has "expired". I panicked and thought to myself "how the hell do I play my FE now?!" before I googled the thing and found the same site with the .com extension. Phew.

I see the route thing is what I assumed it would be (since it works for recruitment apparently). So even if Sophia turns out poor / has to be dropped, it's probably a good idea to give her such a sum of exp that I needn't worry about limiting my usage of Elphin / Lalum. Noah is too high-levelled and too weak to contribute much in terms of the peg couple's exp gain, but at least I needn't worry about Barth gaining any exp since he's so bad as Shin's replacement. I guess I can even kill him too? It would suck having to recruit Oujay (Fir) on that map, and he's only carrying a Steel Sword...

I'll probably mod/hack my ROM when I get into the game... I needn't start from scratch after I do that, right? Cause I'd rather not worry about that at the moment. I dicked around with a Hex Editor a couple years ago, but don't really remember anything anymore. It does sound simple from BBM's description though.

I was wondering if you were actually going to post this here.

I think it might have been better to find a way to give Karel a bit more experience in chapter 1 though, the faster he doesn't get oneshotted and gains actual avoid the better. Looking forward to this regardless.

Well, I sorta did need to figure out the promotion / route split thing, and I'm sure there's plenty more to discuss to figure out. Rather importantly too, I like having a company of good people around me as I go about the things I enjoy. It is not good that the man should be alone.

It's harder than it sounds, especially with enemies prioritising OHKOing Niime over him (they don't see him as a Lord at all, which is nice to remember should it ever be of any help).

I'm also not a fan of how weapon ranks were handled in this patch either. "Lugh has D tomes, better give Percival C Swords and D lances because he was awesome in vanilla!!!"

Same deal with Miledy, and giving Astohl (who replaces Klein) E swords, but giving Chad A swords when replacing Cecilia. It's just stupid.

I just think they should stay consistant to what the weapon ranks were in the Vanilla game, it's just sloppily made imo.

Hugh's replacement randomly promotes, and in addition has double A weapon ranks too. Zeiss replaces Dieck, but Dieck doesn't replace Zeiss. It's just not very consistant.

It's still a fun patch nontheless though.

The approach does seem "creative" to the point of being unexplainable. Some other details:

- Zeiss is supposed to be replacing Dieck, but he starts at lv. 1 (whereas Dieck is originally lv. 5). More room for growth (what with lacking HHM bonuses), but less immediate potential in the early maps.

- Also, Echidna (replacing Zealot) comes at lv. 13 unpromoted and apparently promotes to Warrior. Can't I just change the promotion route with some simple readymade editor? I bet I'll just use the Hero Crest on Karel and sell the next one, anyway, so that sounds like futile effort.

- Can someone explain to me how Wendy can wield (D) axes as an unpromoted Knight?

Noah's Killer Lance is nice, albeit a little late, but I wish I'd had that other Armorslayer because the armoured enemies are rather hard to efficiently pierce, especially with the Rapier gone (I know I can always carry Hugh or smth, but it's a burden on the infrastructure man).

Would you be able to share the patch? The link for it on the RR thread doesn't seem to work anymore.

http://www.2shared.com/file/HEMI4pu9/fe6rr.html

Just pasting a link Horace posted in another thread back in 2013.

Also, not sure if you haven't already been doing this, but you can hold A on enemy phase to speed up enemy movement. The enemy movement looks a little sluggish to me. You don't need to time A or w/e

I forget to do it because I have the acquired reflex of clinging to the turbo button (which speeds up far more slowly when recording) instead. Gotta learn to be more viewer-centred and hold that one as well.

And I'll try to remember to doublecheck the joining units' bases with those found in your spreadsheet.

Weapon Ranks in RR are kind of a mess anyway. You can easily have 3 A-Staff users by 16x which allows for some pretty ridiculous 1-turn and 2-turn strategies.

You can trade the warp staff around though. 16x for example can easily be one-turned by having Saul/Ellen/Clarine warp up Karel to the boss and then somebody else warps up Lalum or Elphin to refresh Karel after he kills the boss. You can probably do a lot of stuff like that in other chapters though you'll probably have to rig a couple of magic procs on level ups, I dunno.

2-turn strategies are possible in 16x with just one good Saul in vanilla. I'd prove that with an old recording from, like, 2012-2013 but I snapped and deleted that for no good reason.

Anyway, one problem with the RR warpers is their low mag. Vanilla Saul can be rigged for high Mag if you really put in the work every turn of every chapter and Niime is ready to rock the moment you get her. All three feasible A rank staffers have underwhelming magic, and warp uses are finite. I believe dondon said a warp staff is worth using when one use ends up saving at least one turn. Or was it two uses for one turn? I'll have to do more serious number crunching I guess.

I really like looking at Clarine's RR stats though - this must be the first time in efficiency that she's actually a "dodgetank" that new players like to give her ridiculous amounts of credit for. Should be fun to use her if I'm still sitting on a Guiding Ring (which I should be).

Welcome back Espibrosa, good to have you.

How key are supports for you?

I might like to see more of them but they're slow to build in this game and the replacements that inherit them from the original characters don't necessarily have good synergy or are likely to be in each other's vicinity.

Some fast supports would include:

Karel x Geese (Roy x Lilina)

Yuno x Dayan (Allance)

Igrene x Garret (Ward x Lott)

Sophia x Noah (Thany x Tate)

Cecilia x Percival (Chad x Lugh)

Miledy x Astohl (Clarine x Klein)

Saul x Percival (Ray x Lugh)

It'll be nice if any of these (C at most) happen, but I doubt I'll actively look for opportunities to stick any of a pair together in an LTC run with what is expected to be a powerful party of many fliers and a to-be SM Lord, accompanied by two dancers.

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You can trade the warp staff around though. 16x for example can easily be one-turned by having Saul/Ellen/Clarine warp up Karel to the boss and then somebody else warps up Lalum or Elphin to refresh Karel after he kills the boss. You can probably do a lot of stuff like that in other chapters though you'll probably have to rig a couple of magic procs on level ups, I dunno.

Right, my point wasn't that it was impossible, it was that from a cumulative turn count point of view it saves one turn per use at some point.

I'm not really disagreeing with you, I'm just saying that there's only so many warp uses that save turns before you only save a single turn per warp use. Irysa can sort of explain this better because we theorycrafted quite a bit for this game.

Regardless I believe you still have Elphim and Lalum available on the same file so you can do some ridiculously crazy shit. Mostly you can double move whatever unit you want, at the cost of a single unit, but you'd be surprised how flexible this makes positioning of all sorts and it requires two less combat units to carry one of them around.

Also Wendy having D axes is a glitch, but it's also in the game. It could just be a joke too.

I also figured out a 4 turn of 16 so as soon as I am finished with that i should be able to show off a 2 turn of 16.

Edited by Lord Raven

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I suppose there's a decent enough chance any of Karel/Yuno/Dayan will score a C support with one another, but I won't actively propagate it either.

And yeah, definitely looking forward to any turn-saving strategies the double dancer duo will bring about. It does sound like you want both of them rescuedropped as often as possible though, so that they are always in action. Once in Ilia, we might as well have them dance until they cap their levels for some great durability and avoid for future strats. Having them dance each other and level up is also a nice RNG-burning tactic when I restrict RN burning via movement.

I have to ask though, what does everyone see in Lugh? He currently tops the dark horse (which doesn't feature the most impressive units in the patch, I'll give you that). I understand he's an evasive guy with great HM bonuses and magical damage, which makes him perfect for taking on many different enemy types, and probably not a bad bosskiller (again, what some newcomers like praising him and Lilina for being), but he still only has 6 move and he still only has C staves, which is not enough to use Physic off that huge mag stat (not Niime-huge either though).

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I honestly just don't think any of the other units are actually good. Shin's pretty much himself a few chapters earlier I guess, but by the time he joins, Dayan could be better anyway, although his growths kinda suck.

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Didn't Sages have some super niche utility as Bolting users in beamcrash-styled LTC? Not sure how valuable I would find that, but Lugh has the right bases to function as one right off the bat.

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You need the right support to get criticals with it though. Hugh with a Percival support could probably do it, I kinda had that one planned for my LTC run.

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Didn't Sages have some super niche utility as Bolting users in beamcrash-styled LTC? Not sure how valuable I would find that, but Lugh has the right bases to function as one right off the bat.

I think the reason why beamcrash did it was because

- lots of dead units so not much killing power to begin with

- Roy/Lilina can get a displayed crit rate because it only takes 17 turns to hit a B support. You need to rig a lot of skill on Lilina though - easier said than done given her 20% skill growth.

I suspect it shaves a turn off of 21/22 with good warp/rescue usage.

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would training Karel be too tedious? his growths are ridiculous and a few levels under his belt could help in the long run

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