video series FE6 Reverse Recruitment Low Turns

[Espinosa]

Yeah, I just don't drop "rig" much at all (though you can see me "engineering" things a lot, which is a term Irysa has used). So far though, Karel has had a decent enough number of +str/+spd level-ups. These things aren't so easy to arrange without boundless path RNG manipulation when you have other objectives to worry about - like fliers not getting sniped, Hugh not dying and suchlike things.

Here comes chapter 5 completed in 4 turns. It's one more example where having Karel having stats enabling him of taking a few rounds of combat would help.

Honestly, I'd probably be more comfortable if Fir was the lord instead! I'm sure she'd be very broken; well, as far as a foot unit can be. Karel would also be more useful if he had his class bases at the very least, without negative base stats - like Wolf/Sedgar in Shadow Dragon.

[Irysa]

Karel having his class bases would make him kind of ridiculous for any less strict playthrough. It's not like this mod was created with LTC in mind!

Chapter 5 is more proof Merlinus is the best unit in FE6.

[Yojinbo]

Training Karel honestly isn't as much of a drag as it seems to be. You can sorta neglect him until about Ch.8 and from then on it isn't very hard to give him opportunities to finish off mooks until he becomes competent in like Ch.13.

Edit: I'm totally jelly of your Dayan though. He procced +str on pretty much every level up so far.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Yojinbo

[Espinosa]

I wish Dayan had been proccing some other stats as well... But yeah, a nuke nomad is definitely really appreciated. He's still the fastest character in the party even after proccing one point of speed from all of his level-ups.

So yeah, tonight I started doing chapter 8 more seriously. You kept saying how straightforward it is to progress on that map, while casually just feeding kills to Karel (who was somehow neglected by that point), but this is how far Yuno can actually travel on turn 1 after being danced twice:

She can drop Karel anywhere on any of the three actions she gets during that turn (lol Galeforce).

Pretty far, and if it's low turn completion that we're interested in and not the babying of Karel then this might be the way to go. I have no clue how it will progress from there as Yuno is not a soloist by any stretch of the word, dropping Karel anywhere is dangerous, and keeping the rest of the team (or at least a small portion thereof) closely following Yuno will require some very thorough planning...

...which is a good thing of course, but I believe this chapter will not take less effort than chapter 7 did; likely a lot more because of how long it is and how quickly we can proceed - on paper anyway.

[chococoke]

I like how Dory is harder than any boss in FE7/8

EDIT: Also isn't dropping Karel anywhere with enemies usually instant death for him anyway?

Edited April 14, 2015 by chococoke

[Espinosa]

Karel has "respectable" 16/5/4 bulk right now at 5.35/0. Not enough to take a Steel Lance hit, but pretty good for everything else. 7 spd when not weighed down ensures he's not getting doubled.

Dropping Karel with Yuno is pretty useless anyway, for one reason - Karel isn't such a big help with cleaning the enemies blocking the way. No reliable strength and/or doubling (against non-soldiers and knights), no crit weapons accessible yet (Fir will join with a Wo Dao but I can only imagine how late that will happen into the map if I progress anywhere as swiftly as the squares and the supposition that Yuno moves twice every single turn, which could well turn out to be unreasonable in light of the combat obstacles faced).

The ones really likely to die are the dancers. Maybe I should've kept them dancing each other in the previous chapter? It's never too late to return and do that, I suppose. Their 20/- stats are pretty reliable for tanking all kinds of attack with their faces.

[Yojinbo]

I don't think sending Yuno that far ahead all by herself is gonna help - neither for low turn completion nor for exp optimization. Percival, Miledy, Zeiss and Dayan should at least be around to drop Karel somewhere or to finish off stuff that's been left behind by Yuno [which is probably a lot at that point because she doesn't really ORKO anything anymore] and Cecilia / Tate are mostly there to ferry Lalum and Elphin around.

I never said it's straightforward to progress on that map. I'm just saying that it there are plenty of opportunities for Karel to finish off weakened mooks from that chapter onwards.

Your Dayan is also perfectly fine. He doesn't need anything other than Str and Spd and he is likely already fast enough to do just about everything you need him to for like the rest of the game. IIRC Shin never got any higher than 16 Spd in dondon's 0% growths run. With promotional gains and a few good level ups your Dayan should be set for the rest of the game imo. I also don't think that Shin will be able to reach S-Rank bows at the pace you are playing.

[Espinosa]

"Drop Karel" is a very unnecessary objective that helps little with actually completing the map and has questionable use in immediate maps following this one, too. As long as Karel seizes the same turn the Elysian Whip (and possibly the Guiding Ring, maybe also Secret Book) chest is opened and the boss is downed, the main objective has been completed. In a low-turn runthrough, it is our goal to complete the chapter (just like all of them) in the fewest number of turns with the playstyle I favour.

Yuno can still ORKO stuff but she'll require expensive weapons like the Silver Sword or the heavy Steel Lance to do so. The most reliable unit to clean up is Hugh definitely, with accurate and ridiculously powerful chip. However, his low HP doesn't let him tank much of note in spite of all the defence procs he was lucky to get in the previous chapters.

Bulk is a very existent and topical category to consider in this run (and is the reason some units don't die in critical situation when facing a big crowd of enemies) and the lack of it is certainly a concern in many situations as I cannot hope all of the attacks targeting my units will miss, and Dayan has been 2HKO'd by nearly everything that moves since map 1 (okay, he can really tank those mages but who cares).

I'd also be really surprised if taking all the peculiarities and features of this run into account it will be anything like dondon's 0% growths PT. The difference in specifics is just too huge. I may forego some objectives and pursue others instead; what that entails is still very much a work in progress.

Also, average dancer stats at 20/-:

Elphin 30 hp / 20 spd / 23 lck / 9 def / 11 res

Lalum 27 hp / 20 spd / 24 lck / 6 def / 10 res

Elphin's bulk is remarkably similar to my current Yuno while Lalum's is more like Percival (i.e. a good deal worse). Perhaps of most value would be their exceptional dodging capability - 63/64 avoid laughs at all those mooks at this point and ensures Lalum/Elphin are easy to keep away from attacks, and even if one connects by accident they can go on for the rest of the chapter without necessitating healing.

I guess I'll return to the last turn of chapter 7 and see what the dancers turn into if I randomly arrange them to dance each other until the level caps.

Anyone think this is at all *ahem* lame and not in the spirit of an LTC run? I mean, things are going into a very extreme direction at this point with the insane speeds of progression on the map and whatnot.

[Yojinbo]

The reason why it's kinda important to focus your exp influx onto Karel as much as possible is that he's one of the few units in RR that doesn't fail in actual combat. Shin and Dayan can kinda do their thing all game but Yuno and Percival will inevitable fall behind - the only combat units you can bank on long term are Miledy, Zeiss and Karel. You won't get any competent fighters from now on until Lugh joins and after that the only good units left to join you are Lance/Alan and Roy. Dropping him somewhere to finish a off a weakened mook on enemy phase doesn't waste any turns and the long time reward for giving that exp to Karel is greater than what you'd get from investing all that exp into somebody like Hugh who is kinda meh at the moment and will become pretty bad pretty soon.

[Irysa]

Anyone think this is at all *ahem* lame and not in the spirit of an LTC run? I mean, things are going into a very extreme direction at this point with the insane speeds of progression on the map and whatnot.

Go with 20/20ing the Dancers, but speed up/cut that segment of the video and just show their stats after you've done it all. Unless you feel it's lame or something I guess, but since you're asking I believe you're undecided.

[Espinosa]

Go with 20/20ing the Dancers, but speed up/cut that segment of the video and just show their stats after you've done it all. Unless you feel it's lame or something I guess, but since you're asking I believe you're undecided.

The former is not a problem as I always have editing on my side to present the results of it in an efficient manner.

I never invested in Hugh really; I just needed him to solve my immediate low-turn issues and he ended up with 16 mag / 12 spd / 10 def (but low HP). Low atk enemies will hardly penetrate him, but he's still vulnerable to many other types (which he can sorta dodge sometimes).

It is a very valid concern for LTCs with growths to balance between immediate and longterm objectives. This applies to 0% growths as well, namely in stat booster distribution, but also who to feed exp and give an advantage in terms of weapon rank (such as for Warp access).

Anyway, I redid the 5th turn of chapter 7 with Lalum/Elphin levelling up to the last level (not recording yet and I'll have to re-learn everything the hard way because it was pretty complex iirc). Lalum is more or less the average while Elphin got really blessed in some stats and looks like a Zeiss that doesn't fight (or better).

[chococoke]

I don't know how FE6 AI works regarding enemy attack priority, but if enemies prioritize attacks that can't be countered, won't that mean you can just dodge tank the rest of the run with the dancers and their ability to move anywhere?

IMO that sort of trivializes the run; though if I'm being honest there's no way I wouldn't immediately dance both dancers to 20/-- if I played a game with 2 of them.

[Espinosa]

They're still just dancers - making them evasive does nothing for the other units, they can't counter or fight anyone, and leaving them too close to a group of enemies could mean all those mooks won't die and just stand there at full HP blocking your path.

Chapter 8 is looking about as tough as I'd expected, but so far I've managed to make Yuno move at least 16 squares on each turn. Still a ton of work needed to complete this one, but it's starting... to make sense, so to say.

And there's no chance Karel is promoting in this map, lol, though I'm hoping he can get to where the Armorslayer doesn't weigh him down... But the Armorslayer is actually with Yuno so I dunno how I want to go about that (as of turn 4 or so, I can't really imagine how I'm supposed to ferry Karel all the way to Yuno as the gap's got quite big even with Yuno occasionally dropping other units while pressing forward).

[dondon151]

L20 dancers are very strong; they have 63-64 avo, which is more hit than steel lances.

[chococoke]

It just seems like an incredibly easy way for you to draw out enemies due to ease of "engineering" enemies missing

[Lord Raven]

I don't know how FE6 AI works regarding enemy attack priority, but if enemies prioritize attacks that can't be countered, won't that mean you can just dodge tank the rest of the run with the dancers and their ability to move anywhere?

Yeah, but bosses are quite bulky and evasive in this game, so you need decent hit rates and decent skill to kill things. On top of that, Dancers may have enough evade on average to neutralize a Steel Lance, but facing a metric fuck ton of 30% hit rates and expecting to dodge all but 2 or 3 or something is quite unreliable and also a pain in the ass.

[dondon151]

i'm pretty sure brigands and fighters in chapter 12 with hand axes or steel axes struggle to pull positive displayed hit on L20 dancers

they also definitely have the bulk to survive one attack from any unpromoted enemy

[chococoke]

I agree that bosses are more difficult in this game. Sure, having the dancers try to dodge many attacks is unreliable. However, the run will operate completely differently in that you couldn't normally use your dancing unit(s) as bait with decent bulk and exceptional avoid compared to the rest of the team. Having these dancing units able to perform their invaluable function of dancing and also being able to draw out enemies for other units to attack makes them incredibly powerful in the context of this playthrough.

Again, it's not like levelling up these units is somehow illegal. But having these units that can take a hit or two will allow for feeding of kills to other units and is therefore most optimal for an LTC playthrough (which this is,) so why not go for it?

[Espinosa]

Dancers always had pretty good avo. At level 20, they just do it a lot more reliably and, indeed, in some situations (like when there's an abundance of Steel Lance people) it's hard to connect an attack on them at all.

I'm glad they're not dying in any scenario (others are obviously barely surviving since they're not affected by dancer levels) in my current chapter 8 clear but I'm really struggling with the infrastructure to give me the lowest-turn completion nevertheless.

[Espinosa]

Advanced AI question: what affects the enemy's choice of position when attacking an enemy?

Look at this picture here:

The turn following a very intensive phase during which Yuno procs a crit, Hugh solos a large army without dying and a lot of other 'lucky' things happen. It used to work out just fine, but then I re-started the map with some minor inventory changes and the archer now targets Miledy from the left side, and not from above. No big deal you'd think, as she counters and connects her Javelin attack regardless, but archer's different movement seems to change some RNs, and now Hugh procs a different level-up (which is simply +res instead of the old - iirc - +hp/spd/lck) and, more importantly, dies to the next enemy attacking him.

I believe the big inventory change was just leaving the Armorslayer with Karel since Yuno turned out to not need it, but is Karel having the weapon / Yuno not having something that could possibly impact an archer's AI? Makes no sense. Everything else appears to be the same (and everything is the same, I think).

Kinda upset about this, because after that one turn worked out I started harbouring hopes for an 8-turn completion with the Elysian Whip / maybe other rewards.

[Yojinbo]

Did Yuno have the Armorslayer equipped or was she just having it in her inventory?

[Espinosa]

No, she had a Steel Lance / Javelin (Steel Lance 4HKOs and the RNG gave her a crit, so I thought I might as well let Karel have the Armorslayer so that he can pick off an armour up above).

An 8-turn doesn't look nearly as elusive anymore right now. The bosskilling part of it certainly looks like the easiest part, but the ferrying of Karel is the complicated bit. I'm still wondering if I can let him grab the bosskill!

[Irysa]

Advanced AI question: what affects the enemy's choice of position when attacking an enemy?

Short answer: Lots of things.

Long answer: The actual tile to attack from is not random, and isn't determined by the RN string. It's predetermined based on AI algorithms. However the path used to get to that tile is determined by the RNG. If there is only one tile to attack from, and only one way to get there (fullmoving right for example) then only the obligatory 1 RN (for when an enemy's turn comes up) and the RNs used for attacking are spent. The AI prefers to use as little movement as it can, and prefers to try to attack from positions that don't expose it to other enemies (when possible). The extension of this rule appears to be that it prefers to at least put itself as far away as it can whilst attacking from enemies that have strong weapons. I have observed AI changes when Marcus is not carrying a Silver Lance in Chapter 7 for example, since even if he doesn't equip the thing ever, AI move and attack differently. There is definitely something going on with their sense of self preservation here, but you'd have to ask Gryz for detailed analysis.

Final suggestion - are you sure the RN string is exactly the same up till that point? Perhaps you hit start a bit earlier or later to skip the opening cutscene, which involves some enemy movement, which burns a few RNs here and there.

[Espinosa]

Those are helpful tips to remember in the future, thanks.

Just realised my previous post makes absolutely no sense because I typed up an appendix to a message before then (enquiring about the AI) but didn't click the Edit button.

Found out an alternative route to surviving that turn, and it even gave me better level-ups (but Karel had to miss out on some exp).

Right now the 8-turn seems to be just a matter of figuring out how to string the last two turns of the map together so that the boss doesn't dodge everything I throw at it and Karel's / Percival's level-ups don't suck (since Percy will be taking the crest on the last turn, turning into a Zealot of sorts). I gotta say, Geese is a surprisingly useful unit in this map, as Lilina's replacement.

[Yojinbo]

8-turn sounds pretty good. Are you getting both the Elysian Whip and the Guiding Ring?

Edited April 16, 2015 by Yojinbo